Euro Area

[Furunculus]

Meh. I agree with Louis that for the monetary union a much greater political integration is desirable or perhaps even necessary.

fiscal and political union were always an inevitable necessity of a monetary union, there are no two ways about it, which is why we stayed out. who is going to tell the eurozone electorates that their nations are no longer states, and that the policy and spending regime they live under will now be directed towards the 'good' of the whole, and not their family and friends?

if consent is not sought, nor mandate achieved, then the eurozone has just ceased to be a representative democracy, remaining merely a 'democracy'.

remember those europhiles who rubbished the notion that monetary union would lead to political union.
"what fearful and small-minded chaps you are, to take fright at such will-o-wisps!" they scoffed.
who here was one of those?

However, I'd rather have such things decided through EP rather than two discredited/disappointing politico's with little hope of popular or other support.

at least they had some credibility to lose, the EP doesn't even have legitimacy owing to the lack of representation and accountability!

[Tellos Athenaios]

at least they had some credibility to lose, the EP doesn't even have legitimacy owing to the lack of representation and accountability!

That would be the same EP whose members were elected by their respective constituency with the explicit mandate of debating and deciding on the EU laws? As opposed to Sarkozy and Merkel whom might have authority in exactly 2 out of 27 such constituencies?

If your MEP is effectively appointed by your country go complain to Whitehall. Here, there are actual elections for what muppets we send to Brussels.

EDIT: If your point is simply that the EP is kind of invisible to the public eye then I guess so. One reason for that would be precisely such unilateral action on the part of various heads of state or their ministers. Since we're discussing the “right thing”, it's precisely the EP which we need to strengthen if we want accountability and democracy in the long term. Representatives of vaguely defined national interests is not “accountable” nor “democratic”, not when it comes to European-wide issues. Of course if you don't bother to vote when the elections are, that's your attitude to blame. You don't get excellence if you fail to pay attention.

[Furunculus]

the EP is not representative of any polity i recognise, and a grand majority of this country would agree.
the EP is not cared about by any kind of a majority, so its actions go unnoticed, which means it is effectively unaccountable to the electorate for its actions.

ergo; it has no legitimacy.

[Fragony]

the EP is not representative of any polity i recognise, and a grand majority of this country would agree.
the EP is not cared about by any kind of a majority, so its actions go unnoticed, which means it is effectively unaccountable to the electorate for its actions.

ergo; it has no legitimacy.

Indeed. None at all. Whatsoever.

[Tellos Athenaios]

the EP is not representative of any polity i recognise, and a grand majority of this country would agree.
the EP is not cared about by any kind of a majority, so its actions go unnoticed, which means it is effectively unaccountable to the electorate for its actions.

ergo; it has no legitimacy.

Which is the problem to solve, rather than reason to discount it because you can't be bothered to read what you elect someone for. In other words: either you don't want the hassle of democracy and accountability on the part of the EP to the British public (among others) and would to leave (all) such decision making powers in the hands of your MP; or you want genuine democracy and accountability in which case the problem of “cannot be bothered to care” is quite frankly the real problem, and your complaints about lack of accountability or democracy really not their fault but your own of your own making.

For a flawed comparison: if all of the London rioters couldn't be bothered to care about property or people put in danger by their actions, that doesn't mean that the rest of the British public should accommodate this behaviour. The London rioters will be forced to pay the price for their irresponsibility, the same way yours already costs you when the German and French heads of state can effectively dictate the EU because for so long nobody could be bothered.

[Adrian II]

I must say, I am starting to have very French thoughts about some politicians

Can I just point out: UK Conservatives were widely derided for being anti-Euro and decoupling from the Cntre-Right-pro-Euro Bloc in the EU Parliament.

This Emperor never had any clothes, but despite lots of people saying so no one listened.

I'm not anti-EU, just anti-euro-in-its-present-form. And I'm not anti-politics like IA either, I think that's a dead end.

Constitutionally guaranteed budget limits as per Merkel/Sarkozy require either elections or a referendum in each eurozone country, so yes, we're all going to have a vote about this.

AII

[Kagemusha]

I dont agree with either side concerning Euro. No we do not need further political integration for Euro to work and no we do not have the need to dissolve euro. What we need to do is something anyone pass their puberty should understand. Obey the rules of Euro or prepare to be kicked out.

While other EU countries are dumbing money to Greece with no guarantees.Our government made a nice deal on tuesday:

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Fin.../1135268607718

Finland is guaranteeing atleast EUR 1.4 billion of Greek debt in exchance Greece is paying atleast half a billion to Finland as cash guarantees.Then Finland will invest that half a billion back to low-risk state bonds, so if Greece cant pay back their debt Finland will get its own money back, if they do.We make profit. I guess we are bit evil. :P

[Furunculus]

the problem of “cannot be bothered to care” is quite frankly the real problem, and your complaints about lack of accountability or democracy really not their fault but your own of your own making.

for sure.

but when i am joined by the vast majority of my countrymen in the toxic mixture of apathy and contempt it is no longer my problem, it is the EU's problem.

because people don't consider the EU representative, and thus do not consent for it to govern in my name, people are not interested in its dealings.
because people are uninterested in the EU's dealing those dealings pass by with scrutiny, and thus it remains unaccountable.

i have a government that i recognise as both representative and accountable, it sits in westminster, what use do i have for a federal government in brussels?

end of.

[Adrian II]

I dont agree with either side concerning Euro. No we do not need further political integration for Euro to work and no we do not have the need to dissolve euro. What we need to do is something anyone pass their puberty should understand. Obey the rules of Euro or prepare to be kicked out.

While other EU countries are dumbing money to Greece with no guarantees.Our government made a nice deal on tuesday:

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Fin.../1135268607718

Finland is guaranteeing atleast EUR 1.4 billion of Greek debt in exchance Greece is paying atleast half a billion to Finland as cash guarantees.Then Finland will invest that half a billion back to low-risk state bonds, so if Greece cant pay back their debt Finland will get its own money back, if they do.We make profit. I guess we are bit evil. :P

All countries lending money to Greece are making a profit. We sell Dutch bonds on the market at 2,5 % and use the money to buy Greek bonds at 9% or something in that order.

AII

[Kagemusha]

All countries lending money to Greece are making a profit. We sell Dutch bonds on the market at 2,5 % and use the money to buy Greek bonds at 9% or something in that order.

AII

Yes but we are the only ones getting direct cash from Greece.If the Greek bonds dive further.You will not be getting anything.Just read the article.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yes but we are the only ones getting direct cash from Greece.If the Greek bonds dive further.You will not be getting anything.Just read the article.

But is this not a bilateral loan like the UK-Ireland so different terms apply, your still on the hook for all the bailout money you pledged to the various funds already.

[Kagemusha]

But is this not a bilateral loan like the UK-Ireland so different terms apply, your still on the hook for all the bailout money you pledged to the various funds already.

I am now only talking about the latest arrangement. Before the current situation the initial premise was that Greece would be able to pay their debts. In my opinion that is more or less money lost already.
While other Euro Nations are continuing with that hope.With this arrangement, Finland is securing that no matter if Greece can pay or not.We will not be dumbing any further money on them without direct guarantees.

[gaelic cowboy]

I am now only talking about the latest arrangement. Before the current situation the initial premise was that Greece would be able to pay their debts. In my opinion that is more or less money lost already.
While other Euro Nations are continuing with that hope.With this arrangement, Finland is securing that no matter if Greece can pay or not.We will not be dumbing any further money on them without direct guarantees.

But if it's gone why give them more?? what this actually says is Finland thinks Germany will pay any price and so Finland can get away with a bit of profit taking.

In effect your politicians believe the bailout money will be paid, I must say you and me are agreed though the knockout/bailout money is toast.

[Kagemusha]

But if it's gone why give them more?? what this actually says is Finland thinks Germany will pay any price and so Finland can get away with a bit of profit taking.

In effect your politicians believe the bailout money will be paid, I must say you and me are agreed though the knockout/bailout money is toast.

No it does not necessarily say that. Essentially what this deal is about is that Greece is paying in cash about 40% what we are guarateeing of their debt. This money will be invested by Finland.Nothing says in the agreement that it will be invested into Greek bonds.It might be invested for example to German bonds, but the bottom line is that the 40% of the total sum as guarantee enables for Finland to get our money back through low risk investments in any case.

[gaelic cowboy]

No it does not necessarily say that. Essentially what this deal is about is that Greece is paying in cash about 40% what we are guarateeing of their debt. This money will be invested by Finland.Nothing says in the agreement that it will be invested into Greek bonds.It might be invested for example to German bonds, but the bottom line is that the 40% of the total sum as guarantee enables for Finland to get our money back through low risk investments in any case.

Yes I understand that but Greece would have a hard time paying up if the bailout fails, the government most likely thinks it wont happen and the deal is a sop to the electorate really of Finland.

[Kagemusha]

Yes I understand that but Greece would have a hard time paying up if the bailout fails, the government most likely thinks it wont happen and the deal is a sop to the electorate really of Finland.

Well as said in the article Greece have to pay the guarantee or Finland will not guarantee their debt, so the pay up has to be imminent. A guarantee paid afterwards is no guarantee at all.

[gaelic cowboy]

Another reason to dislike the Euro

I now cannot buy Deus Ex Human Revolution from my local highstreet shop(which are generally UK based retailers) because were lumped in with Europe under the region locking included in this game.

[Adrian II]

Another reason to dislike the Euro

I now cannot buy Deus Ex Human Revolution from my local highstreet shop(which are generally UK based retailers) because were lumped in with Europe under the region locking included in this game.

What's that got to do with the euro?

AII

[gaelic cowboy]

What's that got to do with the euro?

AII

Stop with your facts Mr Gradgrind

[Adrian II]

Stop with your facts Mr Gradgrind

You just mustn't fancy, Gaelic Cowboy. Never to fancy!

Fact, fact, fact!

AII

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm not anti-EU, just anti-euro-in-its-present-form. And I'm not anti-politics like IA either, I think that's a dead end.

Constitutionally guaranteed budget limits as per Merkel/Sarkozy require either elections or a referendum in each eurozone country, so yes, we're all going to have a vote about this.

AII

I'm not "anti" EU, but the institution is corrupt, and therefore I oppose its rule over me.

[Adrian II]

the institution is corrupt

So is your own government. Corruption is all the rage these days, it is not particular to the EU.

The EU and its powers were created by consent of the member states. Not one EU member state has sought to opt out of it yet. The EU has brought us peace and prosperity.

It has huge flaws, of course. These reflect the flaws in our own governing castes, nothing more, nothing less.

AII

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So is your own government. Corruption is all the rage these days, it is not particular to the EU.

The EU and its powers were created by consent of the member states. Not one EU member state has sought to opt out of it yet. The EU has brought us peace and prosperity.

It has huge flaws, of course. These reflect the flaws in our own governing castes, nothing more, nothing less.

AII

I do not believe the EU has brought us peace and prosperity, it has been allowed to exist because of peace and prosperity. The EU is beginning to unravel now and populism and nationalism are rising because of the fall in prosperity.

As to "consent", the UK consented to a free trade block, and no party in the UK (before UKIP) campaigned on an anti-EU ticket since, we have not had any alternatives.

[Furunculus]

So is your own government. Corruption is all the rage these days, it is not particular to the EU.

quite, but it is neither representitive of, or accountable to, me.

[Adrian II]

@ Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla. So you seriously believe that a single market with one set of rules to which 27 countries with 497 million consumers subscribe does not bring additional prosperity?

@ Furunculus. The EU represents you and is accountable to you. It's just that there are 497 million more citizens and they don't all happen to agree with Furunculus.

Why do these things need explaining? I blame it on modern education.

AII

[InsaneApache]

I'm not anti-EU, just anti-euro-in-its-present-form. And I'm not anti-politics like IA either, I think that's a dead end.

Constitutionally guaranteed budget limits as per Merkel/Sarkozy require either elections or a referendum in each eurozone country, so yes, we're all going to have a vote about this.

AII

I'm not anti-politics per se but I am anti this current generation of politicians. They know nothing. Like Manuel. They go up to Ox-Bridge and do a piss poor PPE and then go and get a job in whatever political party will have them. After all Ted Scrotum was a young consevative at uni.

Then they charge us for the priviledge of them passing another set of piss-poor, ill thought out laws that just don't match with reality in the real world. Parasitic scum. One or two exception I admit. In the main chiselers and skulking loafers in it for themselves.

[Adrian II]

I'm not anti-politics per se but I am anti this current generation of politicians. They know nothing. Like Manuel. They go up to Ox-Bridge and do a piss poor PPE and then go and get a job in whatever political party will have them. After all Ted Scrotum was a young consevative at uni.

Then they charge us for the priviledge of them passing another set of piss-poor, ill thought out laws that just don't match with reality in the real world. Parasitic scum. One or two exception I admit. In the main chiselers and skulking loafers in it for themselves.

Well, you are certainly on to something. We haven't seen the last episode of moral decay in the West yet, only it isn't just politicians who stink. And not just Manuel and his Brussels posse either.

Allow me to leave you with a rumination from today's Telegraph that illustrates our common concern:

As the US economist Paul Krugman observed this week, American and European leaders sometimes seem to be engaged in a contest to see who can make the worst of a bad situation. The recent suggestion by Rick Perry, the Republican presidential hopeful, that Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke should be roughed up and put on trial for treason, suggested that the US might still be in with a chance in this race to the bottom. Yet, despite the willingness of America’s political class to put naked self-interest before national economic wellbeing, they will always struggle to match Europe in the bad policy stakes.

AII

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

@ Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla. So you seriously believe that a single market with one set of rules to which 27 countries with 497 million consumers subscribe does not bring additional prosperity?

Additional prosperity is different to "peace and prosperity", which I believe we would have had without the EU, certain countries have also benifitted more than others. Britain has notably suffered because of the CAP and the Fisheries policy. In any case, as I said, Britons voted in favour of a Common market and have not had a say since. We should have had a referendum on EU membership when we became EU "citizens" and got EU passports, but we didn't.

The assumption that the British people are better off not being allowed to express their deep-seated Euroscrepticism through Referenda is anti-democratic. Nor is the EU parliament anything other than an irrelevence, power rests with the Commission - everyone knows this - and that is why political parties send their novices and cranks to Europe to get rid of them/weather them. People don't go "up" to Europe in the UK they come "down" to it and them back "up" to london when they are allowed to be serious politicians.

[Furunculus]

@ Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla. So you seriously believe that a single market with one set of rules to which 27 countries with 497 million consumers subscribe does not bring additional prosperity?

@ Furunculus. The EU represents you and is accountable to you. It's just that there are 497 million more citizens and they don't all happen to agree with Furunculus.

Why do these things need explaining? I blame it on modern education.

AII

because you treat politics as a logical, dry and intellectual exercise, whereas i see it as a visceral and fractious argument over who you identify with, and thus who you are willing to compromise with.

[Adrian II]

because you treat politics as a logical, dry and intellectual exercise, whereas i see it as a visceral and fractious argument over who you identify with, and thus who you are willing to compromise with.

You can always move to the Balkans then.

AII