Euro Area

[Papewaio]

Free trade does not require the EU. Freedom of movement... well that is just a reciprocal visa arrangement... no need for an EU.

National budgets are what I elect my government to handle. I don't agree with the idea of having another nation decide my countries budget or a group of indirectly elected individuals doing so either.

I can understand loans between nations requiring it to be traded in a certain currency or bullion.

Having a bunch of rules that even the best economies don't follow either means the rules are stupid or there is no intention of following the rules. With no way or will to enforce rules, it seems stupid to create them in the first place. So it looks like all the worst attributes of government have been created. A bureaucracy for the pure sake of itself to make rules to keep itself in power that are of little to no benefit to anyone, with the political echelon selected by themselves... at least Napoleon and Hitler had pretty uniforms.

[Furunculus]

Free trade does not require the EU. Freedom of movement... well that is just a reciprocal visa arrangement... no need for an EU.

National budgets are what I elect my government to handle. I don't agree with the idea of having another nation decide my countries budget or a group of indirectly elected individuals doing so either.

I can understand loans between nations requiring it to be traded in a certain currency or bullion.

Having a bunch of rules that even the best economies don't follow either means the rules are stupid or there is no intention of following the rules. With no way or will to enforce rules, it seems stupid to create them in the first place. So it looks like all the worst attributes of government have been created. A bureaucracy for the pure sake of itself to make rules to keep itself in power that are of little to no benefit to anyone, with the political echelon selected by themselves... at least Napoleon and Hitler had pretty uniforms.

quite, i was perfectly content with the European Economic Community, precursor to the European Community, which itself was the precursor of today's EU.

[Fragony]

Finland says screw you to that Flemish ferret and his band. Extra cheese?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So it looks like all the worst attributes of government have been created. A bureaucracy for the pure sake of itself to make rules to keep itself in power that are of little to no benefit to anyone, with the political echelon selected by themselves... at least Napoleon and Hitler had pretty uniforms.

There you go, welcome to our world.

[Centurion1]

Huh? Did i not address your points or did i?

All i did was further explain what Sarmatian was stating. Which is directly in agreement with you. All you are demonstrating is that you do not read other peoples posts.

[Kagemusha]

All i did was further explain what Sarmatian was stating. Which is directly in agreement with you. All you are demonstrating is that you do not read other peoples posts.

The problem is that i dont agree with Sarmatian. He thinks that Greece should not leave Euro, while i have been advocating kicking out all the Southern European countries who are not following EMU guidelines for a very long time. Here is what he said:

Leaving the eurozone is not the solution. Being in EMU is what keeps Greek economy together at the moment. I'm really fascinated with the idea of Greece leaving euro and defaulting. It's basically saying, hey, have your economy crush and burn, let your GDP drop three times, have growth after ten years and proclaim victory but don't tell anyone that you need another 30 years of that growth to reach 2010 level of GDP. Brilliant indeed. In the meantime, enjoy being kicked out from just about any international financial institution and good luck with lawsuits.

Meanwhile, in the north, Germans are still angry because they still have to cover that loss. Even more French understand them completely.

So i find it rather hard to think that we agree on the matter.

[Centurion1]

I'm really fascinated with the idea of Greece leaving euro and defaulting. It's basically saying, hey, have your economy crush and burn, let your GDP drop three times, have growth after ten years and proclaim victory but don't tell anyone that you need another 30 years of that growth to reach 2010 level of GDP. Brilliant indeed. In the meantime, enjoy being kicked out from just about any international financial institution and good luck with lawsuits.

especially the last line..... I am not sure what sarmatian is proposing to be honest.

[Tellos Athenaios]

He says it's very stupid for Greece to leave the Euro and take 30 years to recover from the resulting backlash, instead of grin and bear it now. He is therefore in disagreement with Kagemusha who feels the other way: Greece is being torn apart by the market forces, the internal disagreements and the obligations towards the EU agreed to in exchange for a wasted money. So he thinks it better for all parties involved to cut their losses, and go their own ways.

[Adrian II]

He says it's very stupid for Greece to leave the Euro and take 30 years to recover from the resulting backlash, instead of grin and bear it now.

Thirty years? Where on earth did you get that idea?

Like I said before in the thread, Greece could and probably should do as Argentina did. The Wiki provides a good summary of the way Buenos Aires mastered the 2001 default by restructuring its $132 billion of sovereign debt and devaluing the peso.

Eduardo Duhalde finally managed to stabilise the situation to a certain extent, and called for elections. On May 25, 2003 President Néstor Kirchner took charge. Kirchner kept Duhalde's Minister of Economy, Roberto Lavagna, in his post. Lavagna, a respected economist with centrist views, showed a considerable aptitude at managing the crisis, with the help of heterodox measures.

The economic outlook was completely different from that of the 1990s; the devalued peso made Argentine exports cheap and competitive abroad, while discouraging imports. In addition, the high price of soy in the international market produced an injection of massive amounts of foreign currency (with China becoming a major buyer of Argentina's soy products).

The government encouraged import substitution and accessible credit for businesses, staged an aggressive plan to improve tax collection, and set aside large amounts of money for social welfare, while controlling expenditure in other fields.[citation needed]

As a result of the administration's productive model and controlling measures (selling reserve dollars in the public market), the peso slowly revalued, reaching a 3-to-1 rate to the dollar. Agricultural exports grew and tourism returned.

AII

[Tellos Athenaios]

Thirty years? Where on earth did you get that idea?

When I explained what I think Sarmatian meant based on what Sarmation wrote, I suppose I got that 30 from here:

but don't tell anyone that you need another 30 years of that growth to reach 2010 level of GDP.

Though, as I was just informed in another thread, I am wrong on the Internet.

[Papewaio]

What is Greece's export commodities?

Tourism alone could be a boon if it was cheap enough to go to...

But that kind of relies on other nations having enough citizens with cash to spend there.

If they don't have commodities then it will be a longer haul as they will need to create a reliable and competitive service industry... A Greek solar powered data centre perhaps

[Adrian II]

What is Greece's export commodities?

Textiles, pharmaceuticals and farm products mainly.

AII

[rory_20_uk]

What is Greece's export commodities?

Tourism alone could be a boon if it was cheap enough to go to...

But that kind of relies on other nations having enough citizens with cash to spend there.

If they don't have commodities then it will be a longer haul as they will need to create a reliable and competitive service industry... A Greek solar powered data centre perhaps

They need to sort out their ossified laws in the first instance, and then their decrepit infrastructure in the second. Solar power? Possibly - but can their powerlines take it?

[Adrian II]

They need to sort out their ossified laws in the first instance, and then their decrepit infrastructure in the second. Solar power? Possibly - but can their powerlines take it?

Their laws are up to par. The problem is that they have a parallel society mired in corruption, including a black market that is estimated at 25% of the whole economy.

AII

[rory_20_uk]

No they're not. They still have monopolies that restrict access to several industries.

And I would argue that if the laws are not able to prevent the corruption and black market then the legal system is not up to par - if they're not being enforced they're not really laws.

[InsaneApache]

What is Greece's export commodities?

Tourism alone could be a boon if it was cheap enough to go to...

But that kind of relies on other nations having enough citizens with cash to spend there.

If they don't have commodities then it will be a longer haul as they will need to create a reliable and competitive service industry... A Greek solar powered data centre perhaps

I'm sorry to say this as I like the Greeks but a lot of them are idiots in the original definition. As footfall dropped as the recession started to bite, what do you think the traders did? Well you'd expect them to stimulate demand by discounting and special deals, wouldn't you?

Nope not the Greeks, they put the prices up.

Not big and not clever Costas.

[gaelic cowboy]

I'm sorry to say this as I like the Greeks but a lot of them are idiots in the original definition. As footfall dropped as the recession started to bite, what do you think the traders did? Well you'd expect them to stimulate demand by discounting and special deals, wouldn't you?

Nope not the Greeks, they put the prices up.

Not big and not clever Costas.

Yea cept sometimes that's not about business but about codding the examiner or receiver who comes in to sort out a failing business and pay off creditors.

They claim larger rents or costs etc etc and suddenly were all getting 20cent in the euro for what were owed.

[InsaneApache]

I wish I could find that post I made a year back when I replied to Louis that Greece was a basket case.

[gaelic cowboy]

I wish I could find that post I made a year back when I replied to Louis that Greece was a basket case.

technically Greece has a bigger economy than about 15 other EU members including Finland (at least last year it did)

[Louis VI the Fat]

I wish I could find that post I made a year back when I replied to Louis that Greece was a basket case.

I remember the post well.


It was one of those incoherent rants by you naysayers. Something about Greece being an economic basket case, living on borrowed time, with neither proper government oversight nor private discipline. Or some such fascism.

Fortunately I was around to explain in a simple English that even you foolish Eurosceptics can understand that the Greek standard of living by purchasing power was high, that the EU had been instrumental in creating a stable and sound Greece, and that all of this was owing in no small part to the Euro having stabilised the Greek economy.



Louis - just you wait, once I've seized control of the EUSSR, you will all come to regret your openly debated scepticism.

[Montmorency]

Comrade Louis, I have dedicated a poem to you. I hope it fits the aesthetic of our new European republic.

It goes, "Louis is the fist in our breast, the beating heart..."

:)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Louis - just you wait, once I've seized control of the EUSSR, you will all come to regret your openly debated scepticism.

You may not get that chance at this rate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...s-Germany.html


BOOM

[Adrian II]

You may not get that chance at this rate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...s-Germany.html


BOOM

As usual it's the Torygraph that's going hysterical, not Germany. The issue isn't even a topic in the political columns of the German papers. Of course as we all know the stiff upper lip has long crossed the Channel and now resides in Germany...

AII

[Furunculus]

As usual it's the Torygraph that's going hysterical, not Germany. The issue isn't even a topic in the political columns of the German papers. Of course as we all know the stiff upper lip has long crossed the Channel and now resides in Germany...

AII

of course it isn't discussed, germany has an acute embarrassment about expressing any kind of right-wing/euroscetpic viewpoint, i once posted a der spiegel article talking about the former.

it is considered uncouth even to admit to such thoughts, as they betray the adopted social-democratic creed that is a public demonstration of their fitness to be among civilised society.

doesn't mean they don't harbour eurosceptic thoughts however!

i am finding my time in poland amusing as well as pleasant, for while as a guest i am far too polite to talk about religion or politics my status as an outsider makes it tempting for people i have never met to discuss both even when they are not normally known to do so.

i have some bad news for those touting a euro identity; it doesn't exist in Poland, the fierce manner in which the statement "i am polish!" is driven home is quite astonishing.

i realise i am often branded a hyper-nationalist autarkic fruit-cake, but the level of my passion is positivley anodyne compared to theirs, but maybe that is because their identity is something so much more keenly felt given neighbours and history.

maybe we brits are an island race after all............

enjoy, i'm certainly having a giggle watching the dreams-of-man crumble to dust from a nation that has just shelved its euro ambitions.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

As usual it's the Torygraph that's going hysterical, not Germany. The issue isn't even a topic in the political columns of the German papers. Of course as we all know the stiff upper lip has long crossed the Channel and now resides in Germany...

AII

I'm just enjoying myself, it's that or cry.

The mathematics are no longer there, the bailout machinery cannot be forced through, it must be adopted by treaty and at least the German Constitutional Court will require a democratic sanction.

I may actually see the death of the Eurocrats in my lifetime and their replacement by politicians.

[Kralizec]

German courts, including the Bundesverfassungsgericht, have a history of taking political expediency and the foreign policy interests of Germany into account. Take it from somebody who is familiar with their constitutional law (or used to be, anyway) and can actually read their language, including legal jargon.

Or form your opinions by taking everything the Telegraph writes at face value, whatever. I'll just wait and see.

[Kagemusha]

That piece of news is not death of Euro or EU. It is just that if there is wish for either to remain, or possibly further integrate.The whole system has to be overhauled and this time thinking should be done first before decisions are made. If there is wish for European integration. It has to be done first on smaller level, where it is more easy for people to adjust in any kind of integration. For example i would not have anything against an Nordic Union. Similarly the economical integration has to first happen more locally and so that the economies participating are rather similar.
The whole problematic with EU is that several European leaders have been too shortsighted and greedy to achieve something historical in too short of time, so it could be said: It was they who drove home the integration of Europe into a Federal state. It is simply not going to happen like that.

[Furunculus]

German courts, including the Bundesverfassungsgericht, have a history of taking political expediency and the foreign policy interests of Germany into account. Take it from somebody who is familiar with their constitutional law (or used to be, anyway) and can actually read their language, including legal jargon.

Or form your opinions by taking everything the Telegraph writes at face value, whatever. I'll just wait and see.

so you are willing to bet that the judgement on the 7th, and the following vote later in september in the bundestag, will be sufficiently unequivocal in support of economic union that the fundamental disintegration of the dream held by european transnational progressives can be halted, and normal service resumed towards ever-deeper-union...........?

That is a bold bet!

[Kralizec]

I rarely engage in bets, and would never do so on the internet.

Let me rephrase your question: is it likely that the constitutional court will rule that the EFSF violates the constitution?

Answer: no.

[Adrian II]

of course it isn't discussed, germany has an acute embarrassment about expressing any kind of right-wing/euroscetpic viewpoint, i once posted a der spiegel article talking about the former.

it is considered uncouth even to admit to such thoughts, as they betray the adopted social-democratic creed that is a public demonstration of their fitness to be among civilised society.

LOL. Do you speak or read German? Watch German tv on a weekly basis? Have you even been to Germany, ever?

AII