Euro Area

[Adrian II]

You may not get that chance at this rate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...s-Germany.html


BOOM

As usual it's the Torygraph that's going hysterical, not Germany. The issue isn't even a topic in the political columns of the German papers. Of course as we all know the stiff upper lip has long crossed the Channel and now resides in Germany...

AII

[Furunculus]

As usual it's the Torygraph that's going hysterical, not Germany. The issue isn't even a topic in the political columns of the German papers. Of course as we all know the stiff upper lip has long crossed the Channel and now resides in Germany...

AII

of course it isn't discussed, germany has an acute embarrassment about expressing any kind of right-wing/euroscetpic viewpoint, i once posted a der spiegel article talking about the former.

it is considered uncouth even to admit to such thoughts, as they betray the adopted social-democratic creed that is a public demonstration of their fitness to be among civilised society.

doesn't mean they don't harbour eurosceptic thoughts however!

i am finding my time in poland amusing as well as pleasant, for while as a guest i am far too polite to talk about religion or politics my status as an outsider makes it tempting for people i have never met to discuss both even when they are not normally known to do so.

i have some bad news for those touting a euro identity; it doesn't exist in Poland, the fierce manner in which the statement "i am polish!" is driven home is quite astonishing.

i realise i am often branded a hyper-nationalist autarkic fruit-cake, but the level of my passion is positivley anodyne compared to theirs, but maybe that is because their identity is something so much more keenly felt given neighbours and history.

maybe we brits are an island race after all............

enjoy, i'm certainly having a giggle watching the dreams-of-man crumble to dust from a nation that has just shelved its euro ambitions.

[Adrian II]

of course it isn't discussed, germany has an acute embarrassment about expressing any kind of right-wing/euroscetpic viewpoint, i once posted a der spiegel article talking about the former.

it is considered uncouth even to admit to such thoughts, as they betray the adopted social-democratic creed that is a public demonstration of their fitness to be among civilised society.

LOL. Do you speak or read German? Watch German tv on a weekly basis? Have you even been to Germany, ever?

AII

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

LOL. Do you speak or read German? Watch German tv on a weekly basis? Have you even been to Germany, ever?

AII

No, we only meet the Germans who flee the persecution of the Europhiliacs to Blighty, last bastion of Sanity and Freedom.

[Adrian II]

No, we only meet the Germans who flee the persecution of the Europhiliacs to Blighty, last bastion of Sanity and Freedom.

Wait till they see your trains and drop dead laughing.

AII

[Fisherking]

Wait till they see your trains and drop dead laughing.

AII

Or the Royal Mail! Is that a real mail service or is it just to annoy people?

[Furunculus]

LOL. Do you speak or read German? Watch German tv on a weekly basis?

AII

nope, but i read der-spiegel daily, and have done for five years now including their frequent reviews of other papers editorials, which is where i found the article on the polite silence of the mainstream conservative/right. it is linked somewhere in this forum, but cannot find it now, do you dispute it veracity or its conclusions?

your point?

Have you even been to Germany, ever?

AII

frequently, for business and pleasure, in fact i am off to nuremberg for four days in novemeber again. i will probably be back in hannover in march 2012 too.

your point?

[Adrian II]

your point?

I speak to Germans in German regularly and they have no trouble expressing their doubts about the euro or EU policies. It's a myth that Germans aren't Euroskeptiker, says this study based on opinion polls. The FDP is quite agressively euroskeptic these days, if you haven't noticed- and you should have since you speak to German businessmen regularly.

AII

[Furunculus]

I speak to Germans in German regularly and they have no trouble expressing their doubts about the euro or EU policies. It's a myth that Germans aren't Euroskeptiker, says this study based on opinion polls. The FDP is quite agressively euroskeptic these days, if you haven't noticed- and you should have since you speak to German businessmen regularly.

AII

perhaps there is something in what kagemusha says about there being a divide between what it is acceptable to say publicly in politics, and what can be said in private, in which case euroskepticism is somewhat removed from conservative/right topics, but it should be noted that this transition is recent, particularly so in the FDP.

[Adrian II]

perhaps there is something in what kagemusha says about there being a divide between what it is acceptable to say publicly in politics, and what can be said in private, in which case euroskepticism is somewhat removed from conservative/right topics, but it should be noted that this transition is recent, particularly so in the FDP.

The Greens have long been euroskeptical, even when they were in government, and they were quite open about it. They practically 'owned' euroskepticism. The German Social Democrats were always among the leading proponents of 'Europe'. The German conservatives have long been concerned with the issue of the future reunification of their country for which they 'needed Europe'. Since 1991 this motif is irrelevant and Euroskepticism is on the rise on the right.

AII

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

As usual it's the Torygraph that's going hysterical, not Germany. The issue isn't even a topic in the political columns of the German papers. Of course as we all know the stiff upper lip has long crossed the Channel and now resides in Germany...

AII

I'm just enjoying myself, it's that or cry.

The mathematics are no longer there, the bailout machinery cannot be forced through, it must be adopted by treaty and at least the German Constitutional Court will require a democratic sanction.

I may actually see the death of the Eurocrats in my lifetime and their replacement by politicians.

[Kralizec]

German courts, including the Bundesverfassungsgericht, have a history of taking political expediency and the foreign policy interests of Germany into account. Take it from somebody who is familiar with their constitutional law (or used to be, anyway) and can actually read their language, including legal jargon.

Or form your opinions by taking everything the Telegraph writes at face value, whatever. I'll just wait and see.

[Kagemusha]

That piece of news is not death of Euro or EU. It is just that if there is wish for either to remain, or possibly further integrate.The whole system has to be overhauled and this time thinking should be done first before decisions are made. If there is wish for European integration. It has to be done first on smaller level, where it is more easy for people to adjust in any kind of integration. For example i would not have anything against an Nordic Union. Similarly the economical integration has to first happen more locally and so that the economies participating are rather similar.
The whole problematic with EU is that several European leaders have been too shortsighted and greedy to achieve something historical in too short of time, so it could be said: It was they who drove home the integration of Europe into a Federal state. It is simply not going to happen like that.

[Furunculus]

That piece of news is not death of Euro or EU. It is just that if there is wish for either to remain, or possibly further integrate.The whole system has to be overhauled and this time thinking should be done first before decisions are made. If there is wish for European integration. It has to be done first on smaller level, where it is more easy for people to adjust in any kind of integration. For example i would not have anything against an Nordic Union. Similarly the economical integration has to first happen more locally and so that the economies participating are rather similar.

no problem with this.

The whole problematic with EU is that several European leaders have been too shortsighted and greedy to achieve something historical in too short of time, so it could be said: It was they who drove home the integration of Europe into a Federal state. It is simply not going to happen like that.

no, where the problem lies is in confusing means with ends, because of the threat of WW3.

the end was supposed to be peace-in-our-time, the means to get there was european integration.

now we get ever-deeper-union regardless of the fact that it is creating more cross cultural tension, not less.

[Kagemusha]

no problem with this.



no, where the problem lies is in confusing means with ends, because of the threat of WW3.

the end was supposed to be peace-in-our-time, the means to get there was european integration.

now we get ever-deeper-union regardless of the fact that it is creating more cross cultural tension, not less.

Sorry, but i am not buying the idea that France and Germany are driving the deeper integration, because of mutual fear of each other. Preventing war between European powers might have been one of the original ideas of EU, but its outdated by now.

[Furunculus]

Sorry, but i am not buying the idea that France and Germany are driving the deeper integration, because of mutual fear of each other. Preventing war between European powers might have been one of the original ideas of EU, but its outdated by now.

it should be outdated, in that i agree, but if so what other explanation is there for the fact that emotion has trumped logic in pushing ever-deeper-union when it's is now running counter to the original purpose of the union in the first place?

why is a federal union even wanted? let alone necessary!

[Furunculus]

German courts, including the Bundesverfassungsgericht, have a history of taking political expediency and the foreign policy interests of Germany into account. Take it from somebody who is familiar with their constitutional law (or used to be, anyway) and can actually read their language, including legal jargon.

Or form your opinions by taking everything the Telegraph writes at face value, whatever. I'll just wait and see.

so you are willing to bet that the judgement on the 7th, and the following vote later in september in the bundestag, will be sufficiently unequivocal in support of economic union that the fundamental disintegration of the dream held by european transnational progressives can be halted, and normal service resumed towards ever-deeper-union...........?

That is a bold bet!

[Kralizec]

I rarely engage in bets, and would never do so on the internet.

Let me rephrase your question: is it likely that the constitutional court will rule that the EFSF violates the constitution?

Answer: no.