Euro Area

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

LOL. Do you speak or read German? Watch German tv on a weekly basis? Have you even been to Germany, ever?

AII

No, we only meet the Germans who flee the persecution of the Europhiliacs to Blighty, last bastion of Sanity and Freedom.

[Adrian II]

No, we only meet the Germans who flee the persecution of the Europhiliacs to Blighty, last bastion of Sanity and Freedom.

Wait till they see your trains and drop dead laughing.

AII

[Fisherking]

Wait till they see your trains and drop dead laughing.

AII

Or the Royal Mail! Is that a real mail service or is it just to annoy people?

[Furunculus]

That piece of news is not death of Euro or EU. It is just that if there is wish for either to remain, or possibly further integrate.The whole system has to be overhauled and this time thinking should be done first before decisions are made. If there is wish for European integration. It has to be done first on smaller level, where it is more easy for people to adjust in any kind of integration. For example i would not have anything against an Nordic Union. Similarly the economical integration has to first happen more locally and so that the economies participating are rather similar.

no problem with this.

The whole problematic with EU is that several European leaders have been too shortsighted and greedy to achieve something historical in too short of time, so it could be said: It was they who drove home the integration of Europe into a Federal state. It is simply not going to happen like that.

no, where the problem lies is in confusing means with ends, because of the threat of WW3.

the end was supposed to be peace-in-our-time, the means to get there was european integration.

now we get ever-deeper-union regardless of the fact that it is creating more cross cultural tension, not less.

[Furunculus]

LOL. Do you speak or read German? Watch German tv on a weekly basis?

AII

nope, but i read der-spiegel daily, and have done for five years now including their frequent reviews of other papers editorials, which is where i found the article on the polite silence of the mainstream conservative/right. it is linked somewhere in this forum, but cannot find it now, do you dispute it veracity or its conclusions?

your point?

Have you even been to Germany, ever?

AII

frequently, for business and pleasure, in fact i am off to nuremberg for four days in novemeber again. i will probably be back in hannover in march 2012 too.

your point?

[Kagemusha]

no problem with this.



no, where the problem lies is in confusing means with ends, because of the threat of WW3.

the end was supposed to be peace-in-our-time, the means to get there was european integration.

now we get ever-deeper-union regardless of the fact that it is creating more cross cultural tension, not less.

Sorry, but i am not buying the idea that France and Germany are driving the deeper integration, because of mutual fear of each other. Preventing war between European powers might have been one of the original ideas of EU, but its outdated by now.

[Furunculus]

Sorry, but i am not buying the idea that France and Germany are driving the deeper integration, because of mutual fear of each other. Preventing war between European powers might have been one of the original ideas of EU, but its outdated by now.

it should be outdated, in that i agree, but if so what other explanation is there for the fact that emotion has trumped logic in pushing ever-deeper-union when it's is now running counter to the original purpose of the union in the first place?

why is a federal union even wanted? let alone necessary!

[Kagemusha]

it should be outdated, in that i agree, but if so what other explanation is there for the fact that emotion has trumped logic in pushing ever-deeper-union when it's is now running counter to the original purpose of the union in the first place?

why is a federal union even wanted? let alone necessary!

Im afraid there is quite primitive human behavior behind it. The word is power. The dream of united powerful European federal state. A superpower both economically and militaritically. The wish that we would be important and strong and others would have to take us seriously. I am afraid that self pity, hunger of power and influence might be the key things behind the any means necessary take on integration. The thing is that i dont believe it is not Nations like Germany and France that grave for such, as the political support is not there, but individuals.In other words politicians who want to rule a super power. no matter what. I doubt any of them would admit it, maybe even to themselves, but that is my opinion about it.
Another simple reason might be that this could be issue to some, which they just cant admit failure.It is impossible for them.Such a grand vision, just cant fail.And that my friend, is the main failure in itself.

[Furunculus]

Im afraid there is quite primitive human behavior behind it. The word is power. The dream of united powerful European federal state. A superpower both economically and militaritically. The wish that we would be important and strong and others would have to take us seriously. I am afraid that self pity, hunger of power and influence might be the key things behind the any means necessary take on integration. The thing is that i dont believe it is not Nations like Germany and France that grave for such, as the political support is not there, but individuals.In other words politicians who want to rule a super power. no matter what. I doubt any of them would admit it, maybe even to themselves, but that is my opinion about it.

but our systems of representative democracy are complex beasts, deliberately so with many checks and balances to prevent just such powerhungry individual from grasping untrammelled power, or wielding unconstrained influence, surely it cannot be so simple? i smell ideology at work; the misanthropic fear of the transnational progressives for whom humanity is but a morass of base creatures subject to primitive animal instincts, and thus in need of a complex architecture to hold those dark urges in place.

Another simple reason might be that this could be issue to some, which they just cant admit failure.It is impossible for them.Such a grand vision, just cant fail.And that my friend, is the main failure in itself.

on that i agree!

[Montmorency]

humanity is but a base creature subject to animal instincts

"Base" is merely a mechanism of control, but otherwise this is true.

, and thus in need of a complex architecture to hold those urges in place.

Won't help.

[Kagemusha]

but our systems of representative democracy are complex beasts, deliberately so with many checks and balances to prevent just such powerhungry individual from grasping untrammelled power, or wielding unconstrained influence, surely it cannot be so simple? i smell ideology at work; the misanthropic fear of the transnational progressives for whom humanity is but a morass of base creatures subject to primitive animal instincts, and thus in need of a complex architecture to hold those dark urges in place.

Now i did not talk anything concerning the motivation for gaining more power. The aims to use that power for migh be good ones, or bad ones.That is impossible to say, but the need for more power seems evident. Power in itself has no moral.It is a tool, but wish to gain that power no matter of the consequences speaks ill about those who long for it so much.

[Adrian II]

your point?

I speak to Germans in German regularly and they have no trouble expressing their doubts about the euro or EU policies. It's a myth that Germans aren't Euroskeptiker, says this study based on opinion polls. The FDP is quite agressively euroskeptic these days, if you haven't noticed- and you should have since you speak to German businessmen regularly.

AII

[Furunculus]

I speak to Germans in German regularly and they have no trouble expressing their doubts about the euro or EU policies. It's a myth that Germans aren't Euroskeptiker, says this study based on opinion polls. The FDP is quite agressively euroskeptic these days, if you haven't noticed- and you should have since you speak to German businessmen regularly.

AII

perhaps there is something in what kagemusha says about there being a divide between what it is acceptable to say publicly in politics, and what can be said in private, in which case euroskepticism is somewhat removed from conservative/right topics, but it should be noted that this transition is recent, particularly so in the FDP.

[Adrian II]

perhaps there is something in what kagemusha says about there being a divide between what it is acceptable to say publicly in politics, and what can be said in private, in which case euroskepticism is somewhat removed from conservative/right topics, but it should be noted that this transition is recent, particularly so in the FDP.

The Greens have long been euroskeptical, even when they were in government, and they were quite open about it. They practically 'owned' euroskepticism. The German Social Democrats were always among the leading proponents of 'Europe'. The German conservatives have long been concerned with the issue of the future reunification of their country for which they 'needed Europe'. Since 1991 this motif is irrelevant and Euroskepticism is on the rise on the right.

AII

[Furunculus]

cheers. :)

dan hannan reckons eurobonds are further up the policy agenda than is being admitted to righ now......... as is usual with euro-politics:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...s-merkel-says/

[Adrian II]

cheers. :)

dan hannan reckons eurobonds are further up the policy agenda than is being admitted to righ now......... as is usual with euro-politics:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...s-merkel-says/

God, Dan Hannan and his private crusade again...

AII

[Furunculus]

probably the only decent politician in brussels. ;)

[Kagemusha]

The Greens have long been euroskeptical, even when they were in government, and they were quite open about it. They practically 'owned' euroskepticism. The German Social Democrats were always among the leading proponents of 'Europe'. The German conservatives have long been concerned with the issue of the future reunification of their country for which they 'needed Europe'. Since 1991 this motif is irrelevant and Euroskepticism is on the rise on the right.

AII

Maybe here in Finland we are very strange compared to mainland Europe. Here both social democrats and moderate, central party, have been not outright sceptic, but rather cautious about EU, while the Liberal right wing Kokoomus has been the strongest advocate of the Union. the populist conservative right party "true Finns" is on the other hand more then sceptic, rather outright hostile towards EU.

Also to the matter.The former CEO of German BDE Hans Olaf Henkel advocated today on interview for Financial times that the Euro should be broken up in two. He had a good idea of splitting the monetary Union into two, so the the stronger economies could keep a stronger currency and the ones that are in poor condition would benefit from weaker currency.That would be a solution i would accept.

[Furunculus]

bundesbank next in line to take a pop at the euro:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...undesbank.html

[phonicsmonkey]

Also to the matter.The former CEO of German BDE Hans Olaf Henkel advocated today on interview for Financial times that the Euro should be broken up in two. He had a good idea of splitting the monetary Union into two, so the the stronger economies could keep a stronger currency and the ones that are in poor condition would benefit from weaker currency.That would be a solution i would accept.

This will only work so long as the relativity within the economies of the two sets of countries remains constant, which of course it will not. As soon is there is divergence (eg. like that between Germany and Greece in the past cycle) there will be another set of fiscal problems within the shared currency, whichever one it is.

[Furunculus]

roger bootle on the legal nonsense about it being impossible to exit the euro:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...trump-law.html

[Kagemusha]

Most experts think that it will take less then two weeks for Greece to go bancrupt.It is kind of interesting how during the last couple weeks, both politics and media have just started to get silent and look somewhere else rather then about the whole affair.

[Furunculus]

it might be quicker; greece is beginning to realise to that the bailout 2.0 serves no other purpose than to persuade the IMF to keep paying out on bailout 1.0 (no money will EVER be received from part-deux), and that any money received serves no other purpose than to be recycled back into northern european banks (to make sure they survive greece's fall).

[Louis VI the Fat]

Most experts think that it will take less then two weeks for Greece to go bancrupt.It is kind of interesting how during the last couple weeks, both politics and media have just started to get silent and look somewhere else rather then about the whole affair.

Europe is getting fed up with Greece.

Ireland and Portugal are going through very rough times. But they do what is necessary. They deserve our support.

Not Greece. In Greece, Europe is still dealing with the same lying statisticians. The same corrupt, self-serving politicians. They don't want to be bailed out.
Also, ever since day one of its membership, Greece has played the same game of milking Europe for what it's worth. They have come to think, based on actual experience, that the patience and stupidity of Europe is infinite. Add in the costs of a Greek bankryptcy for Europe, and it is clear why the Greeks think they can use this crisis to steal even more money from Europe than before.


Autists.

There is no electoral support anywhere for support for Greeks. It is against any electoral instinct that politicians throughout Europe are still trying to do the responsible thing and keep Greece - an entire European country - afloat. This sense of responsibility is not infinite, there comes a time when one realises that the last effort has been made. There is nobody in Greece to work with. The Greeks have neither the will, nor even the capacity to change their ways. (Capable civil servants, non-politicised semi-governmental agencies, at least some rationally functioning non-corrupt segments of state)

[Fragony]

But we aren't really helping out Greece are we, we are bailing out the banks, again. Feel sorry for the ordinary Greeks as it ain't their fault, they work more hours than us and especially more than you strikehappy Frenchies, they just get the bill. As we do here in the swamp

EUSSR, kill it with fire

[rory_20_uk]

But we aren't really helping out Greece are we, we are bailing out the banks, again. Feel sorry for the ordinary Greeks as it ain't their fault, they work more hours than us and especially more than you strikehappy Frenchies, they just get the bill. As we do here in the swamp

EUSSR, kill it with fire

No, Greeks retire earlier than anyone else in Europe, possibly the world. They get a 90% pension.
They avoid taxes wherever possible
Their elected leaders lied to get into the EU in the first place. Upon entering they went on a massive spending spree, including the Olympics. There was a distinct lack of protest during the good times.

[InsaneApache]

Pater's seen and had enough. He's coming back to blighty in March.

[gaelic cowboy]

Europe is getting fed up with Greece.

Ireland and Portugal are going through very rough times. But they do what is necessary. They deserve our support.

Not Greece. In Greece, Europe is still dealing with the same lying statisticians. The same corrupt, self-serving politicians. They don't want to be bailed out.
Also, ever since day one of its membership, Greece has played the same game of milking Europe for what it's worth. They have come to think, based on actual experience, that the patience and stupidity of Europe is infinite. Add in the costs of a Greek bankryptcy for Europe, and it is clear why the Greeks think they can use this crisis to steal even more money from Europe than before.


Autists.

There is no electoral support anywhere for support for Greeks. It is against any electoral instinct that politicians throughout Europe are still trying to do the responsible thing and keep Greece - an entire European country - afloat. This sense of responsibility is not infinite, there comes a time when one realises that the last effort has been made. There is nobody in Greece to work with. The Greeks have neither the will, nor even the capacity to change their ways. (Capable civil servants, non-politicised semi-governmental agencies, at least some rationally functioning non-corrupt segments of state)

To be honest you have to admire the on them fellas holding the entire EU (and the world) to ransom like they are. I cannot see them paying anything back at all at all, sure Greece only exports about maybe a tenth that Ireland does.

If you took every single non-agricultural export and burned them on the docks in Dublin there would still be about 7-8 billion in agri products to export which is half the total Greek exports.

[phonicsmonkey]

This is a controversial viewpoint but all the anti-Greek rhetoric here and elsewhere ignores the basic economic and political facts of the matter.

Inviting (beseeching!) the Greeks into monetary union in the clear knowledge that their economy was not homogenous with those of the larger European nations like (eg) Germany was a political decision and one which German politicians of the time were falling over themselves to make in the cause of the feted "European project" which was to end all war, grant kittens to every citizen, teach esperanto to everyone etc etc.

The direct economic impact of this was that Greece, its banks and citizens could suddenly borrow money at interest rates substantially lower than was appropriate to their economy. In practical effect, the EU rapidly and dramatically increased the money supply to Greece and kept the fire hydrant on for many years. It is a basic principle of economics that if the money supply is high and the capacity of the economy to absorb this money in productive investment is low, asset bubbles will be created, in this case a gigantic bubble in Greek credit.

Yes, there is a cultural issue around corruption and non-payment of taxes but blaming individual Greeks for this is at best wilfully ignorant and at worst politically-motivated fabrication. It is a failure of governments and political leadership across Europe (including, of course, in Greece) that is to blame for the current issues in Greece and elsewhere.

As a rather more controversial addendum I would like to suggest it is unreasonable for Germans to be self-righteous about the issue of bailing out Greece when in effect Germany itself was bailed out after the Second World War when its war debts were forgiven by the victorious allies. This freed up the German economy to restructure and invest for the future, the fruits of which have been enjoyed for the past couple of decades. Compare the German situation with that of the UK, whose war debts were certainly not forgiven, resulting in a loss of economic stature and global influence on a grand scale.

[Papewaio]

So USA had there zero doc home loans and the EU Greece.

These banks that are getting government welfare... Are their execs and senior staff still getting bonuses?