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  1. #1
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowake View Post
    That is a very simplistic view -- please, do not think I am implying you are simple in any way, I am merely stating that your opinion is perhaps uninformed, and thus limited. IMF's SAPs and their succesors, the PSRPs, are questioned even by IMF insiders; e.g. see this internal document:
    The Effect of IMF and World Bank programmes on poverty which concludes that "the poor are better off without structural adjustment".

    And if you will allow me a cheap shot, one must never forget that both the IMF and the World Bank are institutions under the control of the G7, and while I am one of the least inclined persons to view these two institutions as mere economic instruments subservient to political pressure and I personally think part of their policies have indeed helped, it should be noted that managers in both organizations have been known to put national interests above those of their clients while in office.
    My apparently simplistic view does rather stem from the fact that you have misinterpreted what i said.
    At no point have a i laid a value judgement on that the IMF does, i merely noted that if you wish its money then you agree to its terms.
    Your own link states as much:
    Only when governments sign this “structural adjustment agreement” does the IMF agree to:

    Lend enough itself to prevent default on international loans that are about to come due and otherwise would be unpayable.
    Arrange a restructuring of the country’s debt among private international lenders that includes a pledge of new loans.
    If you will allow me a cheap shot, one must never forget that this conversation thread started further up this page with IA refuting the notion that the IMF was responsible for Greeces woes, by correctly pointing out that Greece's politicians are responsible for the pickle.
    The flawed political-union that underlies this glorious currency-union is exactly the reason the IMF was the only possible solution that could have prevented the eurozone sliding beneath the waves in 2010 rather than 2012.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 10-02-2011 at 21:09.
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  2. #2
    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    If you will allow me a cheap shot, one must never forget that this conversation thread started further up this page with IA refuting the notion that the IMF was responsible for Greeces woes, by correctly pointing out that Greece's politicians are responsible for the pickle.
    The flawed political-union that underlies this glorious currency-union is exactly the reason the IMF was the only possible solution that could have prevented the eurozone sliding beneath the waves in 2010 rather than 2012.
    Ahem...while I am responsible for my rather glib comment being misinterpreted I should probably clarify. I was not laying the blame for Greece's woes at the door of the IMF but rather attempting to point out that its policies and the terms of its intervention have taken a sick patient and made it worse.

    I think it is becoming increasingly clear that killing economic growth through externally-imposed austerity is serving nobody's interests, including Greece's creditors who seem to have lost sight of the principal investment while focusing too much on keeping interest payments current. Do they want to increase their chances of getting their money back?

    Interesting to compare the current situation with the IMF's failed intervention in Argentina. A quick google search will find it for you but here is a snappy one-pager where some of the parallels are drawn out.

    Furunculus, I think you and I largely agree on the causes of this situation. As I said before, it's a failure of political leadership across Europe and over many years that has brought us to this point. You are more apt to frame it in terms of a lack of representation, but I think it's just a different aspect of the same issue.
    Last edited by phonicsmonkey; 10-03-2011 at 00:49.
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  3. #3
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Oh, I'm very sorry, perhaps I misunderstood (no sarcasm). The part of your statement with which I was disagreeing was the following:
    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus
    The lender wants their money back, with interest, so those conditions attached quite rightly include reforms that will drag the country back out of the p00p-hole.
    Basically, my point was that IMF's set parameters more often than not do not include reforms which are necessarily beneficial even in the acception of its own insiders, but rather an arbitrary and rigid set of rules which will sink the country even further down "the p00p-hole".

    I do believe your turn of phrase denoted that, in its capacity as the lender, IMF's own interest would dictate that it will aim for a policy to rehabilitate the state. Which is demonstrably wrong in practice and its own economists criticised it for decades now. Genuine economic recovery by the state and the recovery of the loan by the IMF are not linked.
    Hence the reports and documents I linked above


  4. #4
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nowake View Post
    I do believe your turn of phrase denoted that, in its capacity as the lender, IMF's own interest would dictate that it will aim for a policy to rehabilitate the state. Which is demonstrably wrong in practice and its own economists criticised it for decades now. Genuine economic recovery by the state and the recovery of the loan by the IMF are not linked.
    Hence the reports and documents I linked above
    I'll leave the reports unread if you don't mind. I've known about the adverse effects of IMF and WB policies for a long time, actually since the 1980's.

    And I've just seen the result in Athens:


    AII
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  5. #5
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    That are just ruins

  6. #6
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    That are just ruins
    It's a street just off Athinas Boulevard, the area where Greeks used to do their utility shopping, from food to pets to kitchenware to DIY tools and everything in between. The district is now dead. The only lively part I found left is Venizelou and the student quarter. The bars, the bookshops and restaurants are still buzzing and the gorgeous, arrogant 21-year-old girls are still out in force there.

    AII
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  7. #7
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    It's a street just off Athinas Boulevard, the area where Greeks used to do their utility shopping, from food to pets to kitchenware to DIY tools and everything in between. The district is now dead. The only lively part I found left is Venizelou and the student quarter. The bars, the bookshops and restaurants are still buzzing and the gorgeous, arrogant 21-year-old girls are still out in force there.

    AII
    Well there you go: Arrogance.

    What's this about the money lenders saying the austerity measures have gone too far?

    It strengthens my position that the Greek government is responsible for this mess. Greece has a democratic government, therefore it is a problem with the people, the culture, or (likely) both.


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