Euro Area

[Sir Moody]

maybe so but it isn't Free and claiming so is simply muddying the water - you pay your fees with a loan and then you pay back the loan - my Fathers University days were free - ours are not

and as to grants - its ~£2000 and only for the poorest of students - they will still need the loan to pay the fees themselves since the grant is just maintenance (i.e. living costs) and I don't know if you noticed £2000 doesn't go far these days - that would probably pay my Brothers rent for a year leaving him the maintenance loan to "live" off

one side note - how are you expected to default on the loan? the only way that could happen is if you never earn over the threshold - the loan doesn't go anywhere - if you don't earn over the threshold it simply gets bigger every year thanks to the interest - I know some countries with student loans have an end date (any remaining debts after that date are cancelled) but im pretty sure ours don't

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

maybe so but it isn't Free and claiming so is simply muddying the water - you pay your fees with a loan and then you pay back the loan - my Fathers University days were free - ours are not

and as to grants - its ~£2000 and only for the poorest of students - they will still need the loan to pay the fees themselves since the grant is just maintenance (i.e. living costs) and I don't know if you noticed £2000 doesn't go far these days - that would probably pay my Brothers rent for a year leaving him the maintenance loan to "live" off

one side note - how are you expected to default on the loan? the only way that could happen is if you never earn over the threshold - the loan doesn't go anywhere - if you don't earn over the threshold it simply gets bigger every year thanks to the interest - I know some countries with student loans have an end date (any remaining debts after that date are cancelled) but im pretty sure ours don't

Just declare bankruptcy - no loan, or wait 25 years to earn actual money. That's not so hard in this degree-drenched economy.

Sure, you're bankrupt but most graduates have abysmal credit histories anyway.

Lets be clear about this, nothing is "free", the NHS is paid for by taxes.

The only question is how you are taxed - the UK system offsets the cost and you pay it back to the government after you are earning.

I am insulted by your fixation of the arithmatic - your parents had to pay a larger proportion of your education than they will your brother's because he will pay back more of what he is given.

[Sir Moody]

make your mind up - you declared the NHS free not so long ago

look lets define it as it was probably intended when Kagemusha originally asked the question and you declared "everything" free

yes the NHS is paid for by taxes - but to the individual it is free - you don't pay directly for the care you recieve unless you chose to opt for private care - society pays via tax which is very indirect and pays for more than just the NHS

this is not true of the higher education system - the individual (and their parents) directly pay for the services rendered as well as indirectly via tax

whether they pay that back or not isn't the point - they are required to take out a loan to pay it

it isn't free

you would have been better saying free up until Higher Education

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

make your mind up - you declared the NHS free not so long ago

look lets define it as it was probably intended when Kagemusha originally asked the question and you declared "everything" free

yes the NHS is paid for by taxes - but to the individual it is free - you don't pay directly for the care you recieve unless you chose to opt for private care - society pays via tax which is very indirect and pays for more than just the NHS

this is not true of the higher education system - the individual (and their parents) directly pay for the services rendered as well as indirectly via tax

whether they pay that back or not isn't the point - they are required to take out a loan to pay it

it isn't free

you would have been better saying free up until Higher Education

To all intents and purposes it is as "free" as it ever was. There is no practical difference between the loan and the old grant, except that the graduate is the only one paying higher taxes.

For the NHS you pay National Insurrence, it is not "indirect", it comes out of your paycheck before even income tax. The Student loan works exactly the same way, but you only pay it if you actually go to university.

[Sir Moody]

we seem to be fundamentally disagreeing on what Free is when it comes to Government services - nothing is free and I do realise that

Free means the Government pays the "tab" for any individual service - for example if I were to develop cancer the NHS would foot the bill and society as a whole pays the bill back via taxes - while yes I would contribute to the payment via my own taxes I would have paid those regardless of the illness - this means the NHS is socially funded and thus is free

The University system of my parents age worked the same way - they received a grant which didn't have to be paid back - society would pay back the cost of their education via taxes (which of course they went on to pay themselves)

The new system doesn't work like that at all - you pay upfront for your education in the form of fees - in order to pay the fees you (unless you are independently wealthy enough) are required to take out a loan which will be paid back directly out of you pay packet once you reach a set income threshold - until that point the loan (because it is a loan) builds interest. While the Government still foots some of the bill the individual pays for his own education in some respect - i.e. it isn't entirely society funded - it isn't free

now I am going to stop now I hope I got my point across...

on a side note I don't disagree with the idea University students should pay the money back themselves (while I disagree with the loan system in place I am not against fees) I am fundamentally disagreeing with your statement to Kagemusha