Euro Area

[SoFarSoGood]

Portugal has been given more time to hit its deficit goals by troika inspectors. It was previously under orders to reduce the deficit to 4.5pc this year and 3pc next year, but now has the freedom to post a deficit of 5pc this year, 4.5pc next year and 2.5pc in 2014, says finance minister Vitor Gaspar.

So much for the 'fiscal compact'. I simply lose track of the times 'rules', 'compacts' and 'Treaties' have to get torn up to keep this endless quest for a political 'utopia', that no ordinary people want, going.

[Furunculus]

remember, this a treaty based organisation so britain can't just go around doing as it please with nary a thought for the consequences.

there are rules, god damn it, and everyone elses follows them to the letter.

why is it always britain is that is so bloody obstreperous!

:D

[Greyblades]

In the last 100 years we've gone from the workshop of the world to the bank of the world thanks to some stupidity in the commons, and seeing what the banks have been doing recently it's hardly surprising our government is currently acting horrendously arrogant and stupid in turn.

[Kralizec]

Newsflash: Bundesverfassungsgericht rules ESM constitutional, in line with everyone's expectations except those of eurosceptics.

[Beskar]

Dutch have voted: Pro-Europe

Wilders got decimated.

[Furunculus]

Newsflash: Bundesverfassungsgericht rules ESM constitutional, in line with everyone's expectations except those of eurosceptics.

not by a long shot!

they ruled to limit Germany's exposure to E190b, or 27% of the total.

what happens when Spain needs its bailout, and ceases to be a contributor?

in the past germany's exposure has automatically been ratcheted up every time a country drops out, not this time.

so, merkel will have to go to the bundestag in the year before an election to set aside the judgment of the karlsruhr, in order to pay johnny foriegner some more cash, in a country that pretty much defines the term "constitutional patriotism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_patriotism

that's gonna be fun!

it also said "nein" to providing the ECB a banking license, so the ECB cannot create more cash to make up for the (future) deficit in state contributions.

[SoFarSoGood]

Have to agree with Furunculus on the German court ruling. It essentially leaves the ESM underfunded. If someone (Spain for example) stops becoming a contributor then the German percentage would rise but as this is not legal the German contribution would have to fall below 190bn euros to stay within the 27% total.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Dutch have voted: Pro-Europe

Wilders got decimated.

I would not consider this a pro-EU vote...

[Fragony]

I would not consider this a pro-EU vote...

Indeed, the winner isn't anti-euro but is certainly no pushover.

Foreigners really overestimate Wilder's power by the way

[Beskar]

I would not consider this a pro-EU vote...

Both major parties are pro-Europe, according to a dutch friend of mine. Though they were very upset that it is turning into American style "2-party" system since they both got 40% shares of the vote.

[Fragony]

Both major parties are pro-Europe, according to a dutch friend of mine. Though they were very upset that it is turning into American style "2-party" system since they both got 40% shares of the vote.

Wilders is also pro-europe, but anti EU. Rutte is considered a tough cookie in the EU, don't expect free passes for he south

They didn't get 40% by the way they both gotten +/- 40 seats in parlement. There are 150, I don't think your friend fully understands how the system works

[Tellos Athenaios]

Both major parties are pro-Europe, according to a dutch friend of mine. Though they were very upset that it is turning into American style "2-party" system since they both got 40% shares of the vote.

Not really why people voted for them, though. I figure a fair share of PVV and SP voters were never very much a fan of either, just disappointed with the status quo. Anti-EU is all well and good, but at the end of the day a party has to offer more than talking points at which point voters realised that neither party was a serious proposition for government. So they dropped their support, and reverted to more solid parties instead.

[Fragony]

Oh that plumb eastblock workhorse wants more Europe, did you fine gents know she was actually born in the west and moved to the east where she became a stasi.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Both major parties are pro-Europe, according to a dutch friend of mine. Though they were very upset that it is turning into American style "2-party" system since they both got 40% shares of the vote.

Generally speaking voters' opinions of the EU are not reflected in the way they cast their ballots at national elections. This is because domestic issues decide elections, and the EU is considered a foreign policy issue.

For example, many working-class tradesmen are against the EU's directives which allow Eastern Europeans to easily enter the UK and undercut them, but they still vote Labour - the party that backed the policy.

[Fragony]

Generally speaking voters' opinions of the EU are not reflected in the way they cast their ballots at national elections.

That is certainly the case here, mayby TA can explain it better but this was no pro-EU vote, that idea exists only in their head.

[Kralizec]

Generally speaking voters' opinions of the EU are not reflected in the way they cast their ballots at national elections. This is because domestic issues decide elections, and the EU is considered a foreign policy issue.

For example, many working-class tradesmen are against the EU's directives which allow Eastern Europeans to easily enter the UK and undercut them, but they still vote Labour - the party that backed the policy.

Maybe true for your country, but not for mine. "Foreign policy", EU excluded, is almost a non-issue in most elections. Conversely, everybody has an opinion about the EU and it was discussed very often in the election debates. A big topic was if, and how, we should make budget cuts to adhere to the 3% norm - which is where it crosses over into domestic issues.
The Socialist Party and Wilders basically said we shouldn't try too hard, and if it so happens that we cross the 3% norm we should give the finger to Brussels and refuse to pay the fine. They, and some smaller fringe parties, are considered the Eurosceptic part of our political spectrum.

You're conflating opposition against a measure with opposition against the institution that issued it. Someone is not anti-EU because he opposes specific directives or regulations. As far as I know there's never been a poll in the Netherlands that showed a majority wanted out of the EU, period. Wilders wants out, basicly conducted a single-issue campaign on wanting out, and lost almost half of his seats. The Socialist Party is sometimes called anti-EU because while they're claim they're not opposed to membership, they would break any EU rule or agreement if they think it suits them. And their election results were dissapointing as well.

[SoFarSoGood]

I am not sure this is believable but according to The Telegraph a decision in Greece may be delayed until after the US election; "The Obama administration doesn’t want anything on a macroeconomic scale that is going to rock the global economy before November 6,” a European Union official said. “As far as European leaders are concerned, they don’t want [Republican candidate Mitt] Romney, so they’re probably willing to do anything to help Obama’s chances."

So Greece, as if it's not suffering enough already, now has to suffer more for Obama? That's what happens when you are run by the unelected.

[Fragony]

Maybe true for your country, but not for mine. "Foreign policy", EU excluded, is almost a non-issue in most elections. Conversely, everybody has an opinion about the EU and it was discussed very often in the election debates. A big topic was if, and how, we should make budget cuts to adhere to the 3% norm - which is where it crosses over into domestic issues.
The Socialist Party and Wilders basically said we shouldn't try too hard, and if it so happens that we cross the 3% norm we should give the finger to Brussels and refuse to pay the fine. They, and some smaller fringe parties, are considered the Eurosceptic part of our political spectrum.

You're conflating opposition against a measure with opposition against the institution that issued it. Someone is not anti-EU because he opposes specific directives or regulations. As far as I know there's never been a poll in the Netherlands that showed a majority wanted out of the EU, period. Wilders wants out, basicly conducted a single-issue campaign on wanting out, and lost almost half of his seats. The Socialist Party is sometimes called anti-EU because while they're claim they're not opposed to membership, they would break any EU rule or agreement if they think it suits them. And their election results were dissapointing as well.

Liittle correction the PVV wants to go back to the EEG, I agree by the way

That is not to say that the hallelujah from eurocrats is all that deserved, almost nobody voted in favor of the EU

[SoFarSoGood]

As far as I know there's never been a poll in the Netherlands that showed a majority wanted out of the EU, period.

Been lots of polls that show that in Britain but it doesn't seem to matter.

[Fragony]

Been lots of polls that show that in Britain but it doesn't seem to matter.

We never wanted in, there was a referendum and Idunno 70% or so voted against absolute power for the EUSSR, but it was just ignored and we got sneaked into it.

[SoFarSoGood]

We has a vote here... in 1975 for the 'Common Matket'. In other words anyone who wasn't 18 or older in 1975 (55 or more now) has never had a vote.

I think the Dutch vote was on the 'Constitution' no?

[Fragony]

We has a vote here... in 1975 for the 'Common Matket'. In other words anyone who wasn't 18 or older in 1975 (55 or more now) has never had a vote.

I think the Dutch vote was on the 'Constitution' no?

Yeah, they changed the anthem I believe and the vote just didn't count anymore, Jan-peter Balkenenede who was prez at the time was in the run for the unelected position of EU president so he signed.

[SoFarSoGood]

So you never had a vote on 'do we want to be a part of this?'. Just a vote on 'do we want more of this?'.

[Fragony]

So you never had a vote on 'do we want to be a part of this?'. Just a vote on 'do we want more of this?'.

Not any at all we were sneaked in. We voted against it but it was simply ignored.

[Conradus]

The Netherlands are a founding member of the EU, you weren't sneaked in. The Constitution was abandonded after the no-votes of France and the Dutch. Lisbon replaced it and was ratified like every treaty.

[Fragony]

The Netherlands are a founding member of the EU, you weren't sneaked in. The Constitution was abandonded after the no-votes of France and the Dutch. Lisbon replaced it and was ratified like every treaty.

Founding member of the EEG and that's just about enough

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The Netherlands are a founding member of the EU, you weren't sneaked in. The Constitution was abandonded after the no-votes of France and the Dutch. Lisbon replaced it and was ratified like every treaty.

The Lisbon Treaty is the same document with the word "Constitution" removed.

[Fragony]

The Lisbon Treaty is the same document with the word "Constitution" removed.

Yep. They did a paintjob and we got sneaked in anyway by Jan-Peter Balkenende who thought it would make him EU president. He never expected there are even bigger liars then him, he got nothing out of it.

[Conradus]

The Lisbon Treaty is the same document with the word "Constitution" removed.

Parts of it were taken from the failed constitution but to say they're exactly the same is to give Lisbon no credit at all.

[Fragony]

Parts of it were taken from the failed constitution but to say they're exactly the same is to give Lisbon no credit at all.

Well I don't, I was asked and I said no to the international-socialism. The EEG was far enough for non-europhiles