Euro Area

[gaelic cowboy]

and of course the attempt at a solution through transferable quota merely cause a new problem

[SoFarSoGood]

To suggest that your unemployment will vanish if you refuse Polish workers at the border is blisteringly naive.

Supply and demand...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The quotas are already divided geographicly across the seas, and based (in a flawed manner) on the current stock of fish there. I haven't heard about that British idea, what's it about? Creating no-fishing zones near Britains shore, while British fisherboats can still fish in Spanish and Dutch waters?

Britain also has quota rights in the waters of other countries, something which eurosceptic pundits ignore all the time. The annual quota for each country was based on the historic size of their fishing fleet (a simple, and probably stupid idea), and reductions over the years have been applied across the board. The only "real" controversy is the practice of quota hopping: English fishermen sold their boats, and the associated fishing permits, to those bloody foreigners. Your country then tried to ban this practice by a shoddy piece of legislation that was outright discriminatory, and therefore struck down by the EU court.

Not that I care to defend Spanish or Italian fisherman. I agree that they are the biggest offenders. If I had my way, I'd forcibly decimate the fishing industry with catch quotas that are scientifically sound, scrap their subsidies and put huge tariffs on fish exports to Japan (who buy three quarters of the tuna caught in the mediteranean, for example) That'll teach them.

Why would we need quota rights in waters with no fish?

The concept is simple, it's this:

Large areas of the North Sea should, in my opinion, be ruled "no fishing zones" for 10 - 20 years and be policed to enforce it. It's a matter of whether our children can eat fish and chips.

You codon of 30-50% of the North sea and refuse ALL fishing rights, with unrestricted fishing in the rest. There have been pilot schemes (EU approved I believe) but it has been impossible to enforce in practice because the British Government does not have sovereignty over British waters.

We didn't used to have a problem, then we joined the EU and other fisherman from other countries got unrestricted access to our waters.

I'm sorry Kralizec - quotas don't work because you can't control what you catch.

Freedom of movement is restricted - countries can kick other EU nationals out if they're not financially self-sufficient or able to prove that they'll have employment within a few months. To suggest that your unemployment will vanish if you refuse Polish workers at the border is blisteringly naive.

Is it?

News to me.

[SoFarSoGood]

The future of fish should NOT be a political 'football'. It just needs doing.

[Papewaio]

If you lost the ability to set quotas on fish why isn't offshore oil in a similar situation? I assume UK still has sovereignty over its oil, so why can't it quota it's fish?

If you can't quota then you can't conserve and you also appear to lack sovereignty over a key aspect of a nation and that is its waters. I'm sure there is no unrestricted access to farmland too.

[Kralizec]

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publica...ts?view=Binary

Nationals of these countries, like their EU counterparts, have the right to live
and work in any Member State of the Union. EEA nationals who are either
working (employed or in self-employment) or who are non-economically active
but able to support themselves without recourse to public funds, including
students, have the same right as EU nationals to reside in the United
Kingdom under European Law.

...

A job seeker is a person in search of work for the first time or those between
jobs or in training. An EEA national must be able to provide evidence that
he/she is seeking employment. A job seeker is expected to be able to get
employment within 6 months of the beginning of a search and is not entitled to
benefits. The evidence required for those seeking employment will also
depend on the date of the birth of the child.

EDIT: more to the point:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...77:0123:EN:PDF

1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for
a period of longer than three months if they:
(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or
(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on
the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and
have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State; or
[snip]

[Papewaio]

EU has a capital liquidity problem at the moment.

It doesn't take a genius to point out that capital liquidity isn't going to be resolved by making labour static.

[Vladimir]

You people are making me sad. I love tasty fish and it's a shame to read that so much is wasted. I can only imagine how bad the situation is in Japan.

[gaelic cowboy]

If you lost the ability to set quotas on fish why isn't offshore oil in a similar situation? I assume UK still has sovereignty over its oil, so why can't it quota it's fish?

If you can't quota then you can't conserve and you also appear to lack sovereignty over a key aspect of a nation and that is its waters. I'm sure there is no unrestricted access to farmland too.

The oil stays in one place and so does the platform hence it is controllable

[gaelic cowboy]

EU has a capital liquidity problem at the moment.

It doesn't take a genius to point out that capital liquidity isn't going to be resolved by making labour static.

The rules in the EU are making capital static there will still be a problem even with 100% movement of population.

[SoFarSoGood]

[SoFarSoGood]

http://www.msz.gov.pl/files/docs/kom...ORT/report.pdf

Report of the Future of Europe Group... army and all! No votes ein volk etc...

[Papewaio]

The oil stays in one place and so does the platform hence it is controllable

So it seems special interest groups are filling up the troughs of the indirectly elected EU politicians.

The rulesets look like they haven't been thought out holistically. Most of the time you see the EU ahead/over reacting to conservation claims. But just like the Mediterranean it seems the North Sea is going to soon be overfished.

If you have an EU quota one would expect an EU coast guard/navy to enforce the rules kind of like an Interpol of the seas.

If you cannot enforce rules within your sovereignty it is a failure of the state.

Look at what happened to Somalia when Europeans pillaged their fisheries.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So it seems special interest groups are filling up the troughs of the indirectly elected EU politicians.

The rulesets look like they haven't been thought out holistically. Most of the time you see the EU ahead/over reacting to conservation claims. But just like the Mediterranean it seems the North Sea is going to soon be overfished.

If you have an EU quota one would expect an EU coast guard/navy to enforce the rules kind of like an Interpol of the seas.

If you cannot enforce rules within your sovereignty it is a failure of the state.

Look at what happened to Somalia when Europeans pillaged their fisheries.

The only way for Britain to enforce sanity is unilaterally, and we would be vengefully punished.

I happen to think that this is important enough that we should do it anyway - but that's not the point. The point is you can't get 27 separate countries to agree a sane fisheries policy, especially when Spain can buy off countries like Poland with votes at a later date.

Stop the EU - we want to get off.

[SoFarSoGood]

So I read this Future of Europe Group (Foreign Ministers of 11 countries) paper and some of it not actualy BAD bad... They propose an elected 'President' and that the European Parliament will be able to start legislation (whereas at present only the Commission can do this and the Parliament just says yes or no). Yes it does mention a common defence policy etc... basicly the blueprint for a pseudo democratic new country called Europe. The is a new 'Treaty' in the making... definately what they see as the future. We all know how they have a habit getting their Treaties passed...

They might need this new army sooner then they think... Catalonia is going to the polls on November 25 and if the seperatists win they have promised a referemdum of independance; "The time has come to exercise the right to self-determination" says Catalonia's President Artur Mas. Such a vote is unconstitutional in Spanish law... Given Colonel Francisco Alaman reaction to such an idea ("...over my dead body") and the fact that 25% of young Spanish are unemployed and a lot trouble could be brewing.

[Fragony]

http://www.msz.gov.pl/files/docs/kom...ORT/report.pdf

Report of the Future of Europe Group... army and all! No votes ein volk etc...

Meet my greatest fear. I want to live in a non-totalitarian place so not in the EU, actually making plans to get the out of here. Zimbabwe looks pretty nice, less corruption and safer

[HopAlongBunny]

Puts on pro_EU hat: adjusts it to rakish angle

Face it, the era of the nation-state is over. In a global economy/community that which is "national" is just too small to influence and compete in a global trade regimen.

Prosperity and security can only be secured through trans-national agreements with trans-national flows of capital, labour and indeed even property. To remain primarily national in outlook is to be consigned to the dust-bin of history.

Embrace globalization! It is good for you! It will make you healthy, wealthy and wise :)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Puts on pro_EU hat: adjusts it to rakish angle

Face it, the era of the nation-state is over. In a global economy/community that which is "national" is just too small to influence and compete in a global trade regimen.

Prosperity and security can only be secured through trans-national agreements with trans-national flows of capital, labour and indeed even property. To remain primarily national in outlook is to be consigned to the dust-bin of history.

Embrace globalization! It is good for you! It will make you healthy, wealthy and wise :)

If that actually comes to pass - so will War.

It's ironic that the thing designed to prevent another War in Europe is the thing wracking up tension.

[SoFarSoGood]

It's ironic that the thing designed to prevent another War in Europe is the thing wracking up tension.

The euro was going to make everyone better off remember?

[InsaneApache]

I watched a program on the telly about Greece last night. The doctor being interviewed said that he'd not seen malnourished children and babies before in Europe. He likened it to an African hellhole.

Politicians. Lamp posts. Piano wire.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I just went back and read some of the first page - but if I wanted to feel really smug I'd go back to the original topic where we debated the Greek crisis and I said they should be thrown out of the Euro and then bailed out.

How many years ago did I say that?

[SoFarSoGood]

The Germans (with the Dutch and Finns) have apparently backed down on the deal for the ESM to refinance Spanish banks. This means Spain has to find another 60 - 100 bn euros itself. Spanish 10 year bonds at 6.01100.

[gaelic cowboy]

The Germans (with the Dutch and Finns) have apparently backed down on the deal for the ESM to refinance Spanish banks. This means Spain has to find another 60 - 100 bn euros itself. Spanish 10 year bonds at 6.01100.

These nonsensical comments by the finance ministers put all the potential good work from the lowering of of bond prices since June at extreme risk.

I have no proof but the only reason anyone would do this is essentially I believe to frighten Italy, they must believe they can just about bail Spain out.

There comments reveal a paradoxical problem for lowering bond prices, the market lowered prices due to the expected gain from the ESM bailing banks separate from sovereigns. The germans then point at the lower prices and proclaim the austerity confidence fairy in working, so the row back on capital injections and therefore endanger the Euro itself.

Ireland if it does not get the legacy issue sorted with bank debt through the ESm like Spain will require a second bailout, the germans will proclaim we slacked off when in fact we have met every condition they put us and still the shamrock wont grow.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

German finance ministers have a history of stupid comments like this though - I am beginning to suspect it's merely a question of hubris and a sense of invulnerability.

[gaelic cowboy]

German finance ministers have a history of stupid comments like this though - I am beginning to suspect it's merely a question of hubris and a sense of invulnerability.

Ther bricking it because by not grasping the nettle 4 year ago they have brought recession to germany, but there gonna keep the myth going till after the german election

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ther bricking it because by not grasping the nettle 4 year ago they have brought recession to germany, but there gonna keep the myth going till after the german election

The problem is - German politics mitigates against strong leaders. That's mostly fine, Germany is so big and powerful that mostly a weak leader can steer the ship; but now Germany needs a strong leader who can galvanise the population and convince them that if they don't support Europe nobody else can.

[SoFarSoGood]

These nonsensical comments by the finance ministers put all the potential good work from the lowering of of bond prices since June at extreme risk.

I have no proof but the only reason anyone would do this is essentially I believe to frighten Italy, they must believe they can just about bail Spain out.

There comments reveal a paradoxical problem for lowering bond prices, the market lowered prices due to the expected gain from the ESM bailing banks separate from sovereigns. The germans then point at the lower prices and proclaim the austerity confidence fairy in working, so the row back on capital injections and therefore endanger the Euro itself.

Ireland if it does not get the legacy issue sorted with bank debt through the ESm like Spain will require a second bailout, the germans will proclaim we slacked off when in fact we have met every condition they put us and still the shamrock wont grow.

The thing is that because Spain has to ask for help before ECB help can be given it has to literaly get worse before it can get better... They have created a shorting dream. Within days everyone will be short selling Spanish bonds.

Of course if they (Spain) formaly apply for help they get 'troika'd' and this includes control of the regions. So the 'Catalonia problem' gets worse. Rajoy's answer seems to be 40bn euros of cuts in this afternoons 'emergency budget' (new tax on the national lottery an 8.9pc cut in the budget for government ministries etc). They are now in the same cut and die vicious circle as Greece but at heightened risk to 'Catalan problem'.

[Greyblades]

Puts on pro_EU hat: adjusts it to rakish angle

Face it, the era of the nation-state is over. In a global economy/community that which is "national" is just too small to influence and compete in a global trade regimen.

Prosperity and security can only be secured through trans-national agreements with trans-national flows of capital, labour and indeed even property. To remain primarily national in outlook is to be consigned to the dust-bin of history.

Embrace globalization! It is good for you! It will make you healthy, wealthy and wise :)

Considering that eu is made up of seperate, proud and old nation states and that such states do not ever willingly alow themselves to be disbanded, I think I have the cause to ask: what are you smoking?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Both excellent posts - and with Britain broke and disarmed, and the US in political deadlock the big question is who is going to beat down the Dictator when he arrives?

I've already been hearing from Greek friends that the "anarchists" in Greece are Police plants used to get protesters arrested. If Spain deteriorates as well then we have the beginnings or real trouble.

[Greyblades]

Both excellent posts - and with Britain broke and disarmed, and the US in political deadlock the big question is who is going to beat down the Dictator when he arrives?

On the other hand, the last great depression was ended with war, it may be that such dictator is going to be what ends this crop of money woes. Back on the first hand though, War in europe, again. Get your gas masks and air raid helmets while they're still there, kiddies.