Euro Area

[Fragony]

And nobody in the EU noticed or said a word? If they didn't notice then they are guilty of deriliction of their duty. If they did know and didn't say anything then they accomplices to the fraud. Don't forget real people lost money over this when private investerors had to take a 75% 'haircut'. No wonder they have to be legaly exempt because otherwise they would be in prison.

They knew. An international-socialist superstate is just more important for europhiles. When Greece was hauled in the international-socialism already knew

[Kralizec]

And nobody in the EU noticed or said a word? If they didn't notice then they are guilty of deriliction of their duty. If they did know and didn't say anything then they accomplices to the fraud. Don't forget real people lost money over this when private investerors had to take a 75% 'haircut'. No wonder they have to be legaly exempt because otherwise they would be in prison.

Private investors fell for it as well. Regardless, I agree it's inexcusable. And it's a good reason for Germans to be angry at the German government, Dutch for being angry at the Dutch government, and so on.

However the argument is sometimes extended to absolve Greece of its own responsibility, while a massively greater part of the blame falls on the Greek government. A lot of bleeding hards in and outside of Greece have argued that Greece was "forced" into the Euro, which is a blatant lie. More down to earth people have argued that if Greece wasn't an eurozone member it wouldn't have borrowed so much. I find that argument questionable because there's no reason to assume that Greece under the drachme wouldn't have lied to hide the extent of their deficit and debt, like they did in real history.

I wouldn't assume that Greece under the drachme would have been necessarily better off. If we look at Hungary, which greatly devalued its currency after the crisis, a lot of people are saddled with unpayable mortgages because their contracts are denominated in foreign currencies precisely because it was foreseen that their currency might at some point be devalued. I think it's perfectly safe to assume that Greece would have been in serious s*** at this point one way or the other - to what extent the euro added to these problems is debatable, but even so it's not something for a Greek to point blame at Germans or Finns.

[Fragony]

Private investors fell for it as well. Regardless, I agree it's inexcusable. And it's a good reason for Germans to be angry at the German government, Dutch for being angry at the Dutch government, and so on.

However the argument is sometimes extended to absolve Greece of its own responsibility, while a massively greater part of the blame falls on the Greek government. A lot of bleeding hards in and outside of Greece have argued that Greece was "forced" into the Euro, which is a blatant lie. More down to earth people have argued that if Greece wasn't an eurozone member it wouldn't have borrowed so much. I find that argument questionable because there's no reason to assume that Greece under the drachme wouldn't have lied to hide the extent of their deficit and debt, like they did in real history.

I wouldn't assume that Greece under the drachme would have been necessarily better off. If we look at Hungary, which greatly devalued its currency after the crisis, a lot of people are saddled with unpayable mortgages because their contracts are denominated in foreign currencies precisely because it was foreseen that their currency might at some point be devalued. I think it's perfectly safe to assume that Greece would have been in serious s*** at this point one way or the other - to what extent the euro added to these problems is debatable, but even so it's not something for a Greek to point blame at Germans or Finns.

That is a blatant lie may I remind you of the horrible state the ordinary Greek is right now. The international-socialism wanted, needed, them in, not because of any worth but because of their idealism, It was not a very good idea to do so. The international-socialism payed good money to alter the books, and now we all get to pay. Southern-europe is on the brink of civil war you can't know that because you read quality media, but tens of thousands of people are protesting daily. It is getting out of hand.

[SoFarSoGood]

Private investors fell for it as well. Regardless, I agree it's inexcusable. And it's a good reason for Germans to be angry at the German government, Dutch for being angry at the Dutch government, and so on.

However the argument is sometimes extended to absolve Greece of its own responsibility, while a massively greater part of the blame falls on the Greek government. A lot of bleeding hards in and outside of Greece have argued that Greece was "forced" into the Euro, which is a blatant lie. More down to earth people have argued that if Greece wasn't an eurozone member it wouldn't have borrowed so much. I find that argument questionable because there's no reason to assume that Greece under the drachme wouldn't have lied to hide the extent of their deficit and debt, like they did in real history.

I wouldn't assume that Greece under the drachme would have been necessarily better off. If we look at Hungary, which greatly devalued its currency after the crisis, a lot of people are saddled with unpayable mortgages because their contracts are denominated in foreign currencies precisely because it was foreseen that their currency might at some point be devalued. I think it's perfectly safe to assume that Greece would have been in serious s*** at this point one way or the other - to what extent the euro added to these problems is debatable, but even so it's not something for a Greek to point blame at Germans or Finns.

So the EU carries no blame whatsoever? Of course Greece may well be in a mess right now even without the euro; the US and UK are hardly flourishing but at least the solution would lie in the hands of the elected Greek Government and NOT some unelected 'troika' that has it backed up against the euro wall so it can bleed it dry.

[Kralizec]

I'm aware of the protests. Don't think that I'm ignorant of the situation, or accuse me of being a liar, just because I don't agree with your BS opinions.

The EU treaty includes a clause that states have to join the euro at some point, but it's a meaningless article. Denmark, Sweden and the UK have opt-outs for the euro. The Czech republic does not technically have an opt-out and has already qualified for entry for some years. but has postponed it for a while now and some doubt if it ever will join. If the Greek government didn't want the Euro, it would not have been in the eurozone.

[SoFarSoGood]

We are living an Orwellian dream... The EU spread 'democracy' by ignoring referenda in Holland, France and Ireland. Not content with this democratic outcomes of this piece of 'slight of hand' that resulted in the Lisbon Treaty they went further and imposed new unelected Prime Ministers in Italy and Greece. They are of course so well meaning and wise they felt compelled to spread 'prosperity', ignoring and insulting anyone that warned that the system as proposed was flawed. We can see the wonderful prosperity now. Now they are spreading 'peace' with baton sticks and tear gas. Of course if one obects to this rule by the unelected you are a 'reactionary' or a 'warmonger'... "Truespeak" has arrived.

[Fragony]

I'm aware of the protests. Don't think that I'm ignorant of the situation, or accuse me of being a liar, just because I don't agree with your BS opinions.

The EU treaty includes a clause that states have to join the euro at some point, but it's a meaningless article. Denmark, Sweden and the UK have opt-outs for the euro. The Czech republic does not technically have an opt-out and has already qualified for entry for some years. but has postponed it for a while now and some doubt if it ever will join. If the Greek
government didn't want the Euro, it would not have been in the eurozone.

And if our government listened to us neither would we be in it

[SoFarSoGood]

"The Swiss army is preparing for possible internal civil unrest as well as waves of refugees from euro-countries as the economic crisis drags on."

http://euobserver.com/economic/117873

[Kralizec]

So the EU carries no blame whatsoever? Of course Greece may well be in a mess right now even without the euro; the US and UK are hardly flourishing but at least the solution would lie in the hands of the elected Greek Government and NOT some unelected 'troika' that has it backed up against the euro wall so it can bleed it dry.

Letting Greece in was a mistake, the countries who agreed with this shot themselves in the foot. Entering the Eurozone was a mistake of the Greek government. The only way you could construe the EU as having blame in respect to what the Greeks are going through is if you argue that the EU should have protected the Greeks against the incompetence and insincerity of their own government. Not an entirely invalid line of reasoning, but in any case the EU is paying for their mistakes by helping Greece with financial help (and if you lend out money under conditions you're apparently a nazi, seeing as how the Greeks view Merkel)

We are living an Orwellian dream... The EU spread 'democracy' by ignoring referenda in Holland, France and Ireland. Not content with this democratic outcomes of this piece of 'slight of hand' that resulted in the Lisbon Treaty they went further and imposed new unelected Prime Ministers in Italy and Greece. They are of course so well meaning and wise they felt compelled to spread 'prosperity', ignoring and insulting anyone that warned that the system as proposed was flawed. We can see the wonderful prosperity now. Now they are spreading 'peace' with baton sticks and tear gas. Of course if one obects to this rule by the unelected you are a 'reactionary' or a 'warmonger'... "Truespeak" has arrived.

Most of your post has either been dealt with before in this thread or is just hyperbole or plain ol' nonsense. I'll just point out that by far most of the namecalling in the discussions around the EU comes from eurosceptics.

[Fragony]

There has never been a mistake the international-socialism knew, while the monatery union is build the political union sneaks in, the means is not being able to get back. We are digging our own graves supporting the international socialism, we are of no concern. It will feed, nothing else will ever come from it.

[SoFarSoGood]

Letting Greece in was a mistake, the countries who agreed with this shot themselves in the foot. Entering the Eurozone was a mistake of the Greek government. The only way you could construe the EU as having blame in respect to what the Greeks are going through is if you argue that the EU should have protected the Greeks against the incompetence and insincerity of their own government. Not an entirely invalid line of reasoning, but in any case the EU is paying for their mistakes by helping Greece with financial help (and if you lend out money under conditions you're apparently a nazi, seeing as how the Greeks view Merkel)



Most of your post has either been dealt with before in this thread or is just hyperbole or plain ol' nonsense. I'll just point out that by far most of the namecalling in the discussions around the EU comes from eurosceptics.

Ok on the first part, re Greek entry into the euro: Did the EU know or not? Should Spain have been allowed to join? Ireland? Portugal? France?

On the second part: You appear to wish to deprive me, and all of Europe, of the democratic rights which my forefathers died defending. You seem happy to do this at expense of millions of unemployed Greeks, Spaniards, Portuguese and Italians. Can you justify what gives anyone the right to do this?

[InsaneApache]

[Kralizec]

Ok on the first part, re Greek entry into the euro: Did the EU know or not? Should Spain have been allowed to join? Ireland? Portugal? France?

Spain and Ireland: I don't know the decisions and the arguments in detail, but I guess probably so. Spain and Ireland were not highly indebted before the financial crisis. France is doing well enough so far despite that they were often in violation of the Stability criteria from the beginning - I disagree with many of Hollande's ideas but we'll just have to wait and see how that plays out in an objective sense

On the second part: You appear to wish to deprive me, and all of Europe, of the democratic rights which my forefathers died defending. You seem happy to do this at expense of millions of unemployed Greeks, Spaniards, Portuguese and Italians. Can you justify what gives anyone the right to do this?

No I'm not. You're deliberately misrepresenting my opinions in order to take down strawmen.

The current Italian and Greek governments are legitimate, I've explained this several times before and I'm not going to reiterate the reasons why just because you have a chronic inability to see beyond your pre-conceived notions.

"Your democratic rights" are the last ones which we could call under attack. If your government lacks a mandate from the people to keep the country involved in the EU then you need to sort that out yourself, don't expect Brussels to do that for you.

I do not necessarily agree with the EU policy, in general or in the case of this crisis. An EMU exit might prove inevitable for one or two members but I resist the suggestion that the Euro is solely responsible for each and every problem these countries face and that jumping ship is an easy, painless way out.

[Conradus]

And if our government listened to us neither would we be in it

Us being, just you Fragony, or us being the majority of the Dutch inhabitants?

[gaelic cowboy]

Ok on the first part, re Greek entry into the euro: Did the EU know or not? Should Spain have been allowed to join? Ireland? Portugal? France?

On the second part: You appear to wish to deprive me, and all of Europe, of the democratic rights which my forefathers died defending. You seem happy to do this at expense of millions of unemployed Greeks, Spaniards, Portuguese and Italians. Can you justify what gives anyone the right to do this?

Ireland sailed and past the requirements for entry as they were during the time of initial industrial growth in the 90s.

It was Italy and Greece that people closed there eyes too joining, Portugal would have to be let join as it is economically integrated into Spain. which means even though Ireland was able to join it should have refused as long as UK did not join.

But at the time EUcrats made veiled threats about making people pay a high price for joining later, our government had to way up the pro's and cons and made the wrong choice as they feared the Euro might be a success. Initially this seemed to be true but we know now it was nott as Germany merely exported it's capital to keep it's costs to boost exports.

[SoFarSoGood]

Spain and Ireland: I don't know the decisions and the arguments in detail, but I guess probably so. Spain and Ireland were not highly indebted before the financial crisis. France is doing well enough so far despite that they were often in violation of the Stability criteria from the beginning - I disagree with many of Hollande's ideas but we'll just have to wait and see how that plays out in an objective sense

Ok... with you until

but I resist the suggestion that the Euro is solely responsible for each and every problem these countries face and that jumping ship is an easy, painless way out.

Because if Spain and Ireland were 'good to join' how then do you account for the Irish and Spanish problems if it nothing to do with the euro? They should be living it up lending money to stupid broke UK who never joined the euro.

No I'm not. You're deliberately misrepresenting my opinions in order to take down strawmen.

Ok, I presume that you deny that Lisbon has anything whatsoever to do with the 'Constitution' so let me ask one simple question: Why did Ireland have to vote twice on Lisbon? Were they all drunk or was some voting irregularity the first time?

The current Italian and Greek governments are legitimate, I've explained this several times before and I'm not going to reiterate the reasons why just because you have a chronic inability to see beyond your pre-conceived notions.

The current Greek Government is legitimate I agree but who in the Italian Cabinet was elected by the people? Ohhh you mean 'Super' Mario was elected by MPs... with a veiled threat of rule by troika behind it. I have heard of this type of 'democracy' but thought it was practised in the Soviet Bloc.

You are defending and apologising for the enslavement of Europe with quasi redefinitions of democracy and such like; "Lisbon isn't the Constitution...we changed bits and the name". Well I'm sorry to offend your sense of definition but it didn't feel like that to those that voted - nor the millions of others who are constantly denied a vote. The times are changing though and the UK will have a vote within the 5/6 years.

Let me give you some news: It will FAIL. If Greece hadn't sacked 1/4 of their senior Military Officers last year there'd already have been a Coup there. There are two ways it can end: Badly and Very Badly. If they allow Greece, Portugal and Spain to leave you get the first option. If they don't you want to hide your EU flag when they come for you.

And that joke that the RT woman uses has been around for years.

[gaelic cowboy]

Ok, I presume that you deny that Lisbon has anything whatsoever to do with the 'Constitution' so let me ask one simple question: Why did Ireland have to vite twice on Lisbon? Were they all drunk or was some voting irregularity the first time?

For the first time ever a pro-business, pro-atlantist, eurosceptic centre right politician told people the truth about the EU and the Lisbon Treaty an his name was Declan Ganley.

The shrieks from the establishment and Brussels were a joy to watch especially when they laughably started talking about CIA plants and loads of like that.

[SoFarSoGood]

Of course... it's all an 'Anglo Saxon plot' didn't you know? Those horrid English and their American cousins who fought the last attempt to install a dictatorship on the Continent and are intent on ruining 'everything'. This is why the London Stock Exchange must be 'brought to heel' with a Tobin tax...

Oh let me tell you about this proposed tax: The 'Tobin tax' (the current unelected Prime Minister of Italy was an economics student of Tobins) is a proposed tax on all share deals. It's suggested that the value of the trade be taxed at around 0.1% and the money goes either to the EU or the national Government (they offered this option to the UK only for some reason). Well by volume of trade London is by far the largest market in Europe so naturaly London will raise more tax, thus the proposed bribe to the British Government; "you can keep your slice". What it will really mean is that less Europeans will be able to trade or invest in Europe: The companies will simply pass the charge on to the customers. On tope of this less people from outside Europe will chose to invest less here. So the next time the accounts are falsified (as Kralizec assures us) the bond rate will not reflect it and we can all continue to live in Eutopia denying the truth until the sky falls on our heads.

[gaelic cowboy]

Plus by bringing in this tax they can bash bankers which is popular and avoid the real cause of the eurogeddon.

[SoFarSoGood]

Indeed... it will be seen as a 'tax on the rich' but I am not 'rich' by any means and I trade on the markets. Granted I'm a bit richer now after poor US and Russian harvests but so what? Is it wrong to trade?

[gaelic cowboy]

Indeed... it will be seen as a 'tax on the rich' but I am not 'rich' by any means and I trade on the markets. Granted I'm a bit richer now after poor US and Russian harvests but so what? Is it wrong to trade?

Actually the people worst hit will be an ordinary joe bloggs if he has a pension or something like that, the rich can afford or even figure out how to avoid this tax but the ordinary 5/8 investing in the markets for his retirement gets penalised.

There obsessed with transaction taxes for some reason and no one has clearly pointed out a reason why this actually makes sense.
If ye ask me there mad to blame hedgefunds for the eurogeddon an this tax is really just a way to say "hey look we fixed it"

plus capital gains is enough to be paying anyway there is no need for another bloody tax on shares.

[Beskar]

There obsessed with transaction taxes for some reason and no one has clearly pointed out a reason why this actually makes sense.

It is to penalise the short-term transactions which is effectively money laundering by the super-rich and large corporations. The effect it has on Joe Bloggs is so minimal that you won't even notice it. If I remember the figures, the currency and share trading market is 7 times higher than Global GDP and it goes untaxed. It is a big ol' gravy train which the super-rich and large corporations enjoy.

0.1% tax on that is "nothing", it is only 0.1%. To put it bluntly.

Me and you have our £10 notes, 1p is taxed. We wouldn't even blink at it, probably think it fell down the sofa. Or even far more likely, we don't even touch this share market and won't even lose it.

[gaelic cowboy]

It is to penalise the short-term transactions which is effectively money laundering by the super-rich and large corporations. The effect it has on Joe Bloggs is so minimal that you won't even notice it. If I remember the figures, the currency and share trading market is 7 times higher than Global GDP and it goes untaxed. It is a big ol' gravy train which the super-rich and large corporations enjoy.

0.1% tax on that is "nothing", it is only 0.1%. To put it bluntly.

Me and you have our £10 notes, 1p is taxed. We wouldn't even blink at it, probably think it fell down the sofa. Or even far more likely, we don't even touch this share market and won't even lose it.

And yet it will be pension funds that suffer the most.

[Conradus]

The current Greek Government is legitimate I agree but who in the Italian Cabinet was elected by the people? Ohhh you mean 'Super' Mario was elected by MPs... with a veiled threat of rule by troika behind it. I have heard of this type of 'democracy' but thought it was practised in the Soviet Bloc.

Cabinets are never elected by the people here. People elect parliament who in turn support a cabinet which may or may not contain members from that parliament. It allows for more democratic control because you're not bound to a partyline and partyministers.

[Kralizec]

The shrieks from the establishment and Brussels were a joy to watch especially when they laughably started talking about CIA plants and loads of like that.

Hysteric fits and paranoia, much like the Eurabia theory or "international socialism" in reverse. Won't defend any of it, of course.

Ok... with you until Because if Spain and Ireland were 'good to join' how then do you account for the Irish and Spanish problems if it nothing to do with the euro? They should be living it up lending money to stupid broke UK who never joined the euro.

Property bubbles. Granted, the euro was responsible for a large money supply and undoubtedly contributed to it, but I hardly believe that's the only reason. In the Neth's we have greatly inflated housing prices as well due to taxation policies.

Ok, I presume that you deny that Lisbon has anything whatsoever to do with the 'Constitution' so let me ask one simple question: Why did Ireland have to vote twice on Lisbon? Were they all drunk or was some voting irregularity the first time?

You presume wrong.

Drunk: probably, both times. It's how they roll.

The Irish had to vote twice because it's not practical or reasonable to start from scratch because the ratification fails in a single member state, a small one at that. And they did get a far better deal the second time, better than most countries did, more exemptions etc.

The current Greek Government is legitimate I agree but who in the Italian Cabinet was elected by the people? Ohhh you mean 'Super' Mario was elected by MPs... with a veiled threat of rule by troika behind it. I have heard of this type of 'democracy' but thought it was practised in the Soviet Bloc.

The Greek government is legitimate, now? That's not what you said earlier. Then again maybe consistency is too much to ask.

As for Italy, it's fairly simple. Italy needed to get his act together, the vast majority of policiticians realised this. Berlusconi realized this too, but he could not do this with his coalition. The Lega Nord was one of the few Italian parties who catagorically refused austerity measures and they were part of Berlusconi's thin majority. Most of the opposition parties agreed the measures were necessary and even propped up Berlusconi for a while to prevent a government crises. Everybody knew that this was only a stop gap solution and that Italy needed a cabinet to deliver economic reform; having interim elections would cause months of delay at a time when decisive action was urgently needed. So the vast majority of parties, left and right and including Berlusconi himself, agreed to back a technocratic cabinet under Monti's leadership to sit out the period in Berlusconi's place. It's unusual, but not unprecedented and certainly not illegal.

The times are changing though and the UK will have a vote within the 5/6 years.

Good for you. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Fragony]

Just to make it clear, calling the EU the international socialism is a great way to troll europhiles. That is fun because it almost always works Godwin-technically.

[Tellos Athenaios]

it almost always works Godwin-technically.

That would explain a lot.

[Fragony]

That would explain a lot.

That it works on people who get all Bambi-eyed when they see an EU-flag explains a lot mia muca

Observe, an europhile http://www.google.com/search?num=10&...c4Ou4ZxBSIBJM:

What makes it so hilarious is that D 'direct democracy' 66 voters are mostly opposed to any referendum on the EU

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It is to penalise the short-term transactions which is effectively money laundering by the super-rich and large corporations. The effect it has on Joe Bloggs is so minimal that you won't even notice it. If I remember the figures, the currency and share trading market is 7 times higher than Global GDP and it goes untaxed. It is a big ol' gravy train which the super-rich and large corporations enjoy.

0.1% tax on that is "nothing", it is only 0.1%. To put it bluntly.

Me and you have our £10 notes, 1p is taxed. We wouldn't even blink at it, probably think it fell down the sofa. Or even far more likely, we don't even touch this share market and won't even lose it.

Taxation is like trying to pluck a live goose you have to be sneaky or the goose catches on.

If Britain taxes trading the traders simply move to America - not only do we not get their trading taxes, we don't get their corporate or income taxes either. Look at what's happening in France.

Business is global - the trick is to offer competitive taxes, or competitive environments, so as to attract (or if you prefer dupe) businesses into setting up in your country and not elsewhere.

[Beskar]

And yet it will be pension funds that suffer the most.

Bovine.

Also a correction, it is 0.05%, it doesn't affect members of the public (SoFarSoGood, your stocks are aokay!) and this is including the vast majority of pension funds. If you heard otherwise, they are trying to shaft you.

Taxation is like trying to pluck a live goose you have to be sneaky or the goose catches on.

If Britain taxes trading the traders simply move to America - not only do we not get their trading taxes, we don't get their corporate or income taxes either. Look at what's happening in France.

Business is global - the trick is to offer competitive taxes, or competitive environments, so as to attract (or if you prefer dupe) businesses into setting up in your country and not elsewhere.

That was the whole thing about it, they were trying to encourage the tax globally. It was originally called the robinhood tax and the tobin tax came later on from the EU.

Here is a small clip from their website:


Here is another article on it, it is even supported by many rich people, including the likes of Bill Gates:
BBC

To quote from there:

Oxfam reckons a tax of 0.05% could raise up to $400bn (£300bn). That is almost ten times the group's figure for the cost of meeting the Millennium Development Goals,