Euro Area

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Did they elect their governments to represent them? Can you say the behaviour of a country's politicians generally reflects the political culture and societal values of a country? If not, why do people elect such politicians to represent them then?



I'd say the blame squarely lies with those people who continuously block political integration in the EU, which allowed for these huge differences in monetary policy and culture in the first place.

We're so far past this petty argument, I can't believe you still want to have it.

Fact: Social unrest is rising everywhere.

Fact: EU integration would not pass a Plebicite anywhere.

So stop complaining about who the electorate are not enlightened enough and get to grips with the problem at hand, viz. actually restoring confidence and making the Euro workable.

So break the blooding thing in two already, rather than tying everyone to the D-Mark.

[Brenus]

“Did they elect their governments to represent them? Can you say the behaviour of a country's politicians generally reflects the political culture and societal values of a country? If not, why do people elect such politicians to represent them then?”
Massive abstention is questioning your statement.
Government are not representing the country, but only the small “elite” coming from the same school and network. No, the politicians don’t reflect the culture and value of a country.
And we have no choice in electing them as they have the same background. Helped by massive media campaigns, they brainwash the populations making them believe there is no alternative.

[Greyblades]

For crying out loud brenus learn to use the quote option!

Unrelated: I have no frame of reference outside of the previous set of mooks who caused the current set of problems and the current ones who keep mucking up the recovery, but were there ever any competent governments in anywhere in the world or is this complete lack of competence the norm and our ancestors got lucky enough to not have thier governments cock up on this level?

[Husar]

We're so far past this petty argument, I can't believe you still want to have it.

Fact: Social unrest is rising everywhere.

Fact: EU integration would not pass a Plebicite anywhere.

So stop complaining about who the electorate are not enlightened enough and get to grips with the problem at hand, viz. actually restoring confidence and making the Euro workable.

So break the blooding thing in two already, rather than tying everyone to the D-Mark.

Yes, and the plebiscite also cheered for Total War 70 years ago. As for the problem at hand, that's what I'm talking about instead of the usual "they did it wrong in the 90ies, I blame the europhiles of the 90ies" that I got in return. The problem at hand requires more political integration and that is blocked by the same plebiscite which is complaining about the problem at hand.
I can't make the Euro workable alone, it requires the votes of many so why would I not complain about them being wrong? Or are you suggesting I become emperor of the northern euro zone and institute a new NorthernEuro that excludes the southern countries of the eurozone? That also makes sense only if the plebiscite are not enlightened enough to vote for such an option...

Massive abstention is questioning your statement.
Government are not representing the country, but only the small “elite” coming from the same school and network. No, the politicians don’t reflect the culture and value of a country.
And we have no choice in electing them as they have the same background. Helped by massive media campaigns, they brainwash the populations making them believe there is no alternative.

Massive abstention just says that people have no idea and can't be bothered to think about a solution, how does that reflect positively on them? The Americans, despite their weird two-party system, know that democracy requires some level of active participation to work and that comes from normal people. In our parties the party representatives are all elected to some extent by the party base. So if the parties keep electing people from the same background then it's still the fault of the people from other backgrounds who vote for them to rise in the party ranks in the first place. The pirate party leaders here aren't from that same background as far as I can tell, however people don't dare to vote for them, they rather want someone from "that same background" and keep wondering why nothing really changes. I think it was Einstein who said: "Stupid is who keeps doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result."

Your idea that the masses are brainwashed and Phillipus' suggestion that I should stop looking at the plebiscite as not enlightened enough don't go well together. What people forget though is that one can form a new party that is different from the established ones, it is then up to the voters whether they want something new or whether they want to stay with what they know and don't like. In the latter case I'll not shut up telling them they're not behaving in a very clever way. I'm in no way saying the pirate party has all the solutions but if the other parties feel there is some competition, they usually start to reconsider their stance.

On that topic we have a funny situation here in Germany where Merkel does whatever is popular with some exceptions, yet she is criticized for not having her own opinion. So people need to decide whether they want politicians who do what the voters want or politicians who do what they think is right regardless of the opinions of the voters. One thing is for sure, you can never make everyone happy, regardless of the politics you choose.

[Sir Moody]

Massive abstention just says that people have no idea and can't be bothered to think about a solution, how does that reflect positively on them? The Americans, despite their weird two-party system, know that democracy requires some level of active participation to work and that comes from normal people. In our parties the party representatives are all elected to some extent by the party base. So if the parties keep electing people from the same background then it's still the fault of the people from other backgrounds who vote for them to rise in the party ranks in the first place. The pirate party leaders here aren't from that same background as far as I can tell, however people don't dare to vote for them, they rather want someone from "that same background" and keep wondering why nothing really changes. I think it was Einstein who said: "Stupid is who keeps doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result."

Sorry I disagree with this massively - Brenus is on the money here - the current political systems are set up to "rig" the result to a few set parties often populated by the same "type" of person.

Over here that would be private schooled social elites - these make up the bulk of both Labour and the Conservatives and due to our system these are the only parties that truly matter (the only reason the liberals (who incidentally are predominately social elites as well) are currently important is because they are in Coalition). Since both parties benefit from the current political system neither will push forward the radical and sweeping changes we need to "fix" the system so Politics once again represents the people and not just the Social Elites view of the people. Which of course assumes it ever did represent the people - I would argue it NEVER has and has always been a game of the Social Elite and we simply aren't buying their bullsh$t anymore...

On a side note the quote is "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

[gaelic cowboy]

Yes, and the plebiscite also cheered for Total War 70 years ago. As for the problem at hand, that's what I'm talking about instead of the usual "they did it wrong in the 90ies, I blame the europhiles of the 90ies" that I got in return. The problem at hand requires more political integration and that is blocked by the same plebiscite which is complaining about the problem at hand.
I can't make the Euro workable alone, it requires the votes of many so why would I not complain about them being wrong? Or are you suggesting I become emperor of the northern euro zone and institute a new NorthernEuro that excludes the southern countries of the eurozone? That also makes sense only if the plebiscite are not enlightened enough to vote for such an option...


Massive abstention just says that people have no idea and can't be bothered to think about a solution, how does that reflect positively on them? The Americans, despite their weird two-party system, know that democracy requires some level of active participation to work and that comes from normal people. In our parties the party representatives are all elected to some extent by the party base. So if the parties keep electing people from the same background then it's still the fault of the people from other backgrounds who vote for them to rise in the party ranks in the first place. The pirate party leaders here aren't from that same background as far as I can tell, however people don't dare to vote for them, they rather want someone from "that same background" and keep wondering why nothing really changes. I think it was Einstein who said: "Stupid is who keeps doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result."

Your idea that the masses are brainwashed and Phillipus' suggestion that I should stop looking at the plebiscite as not enlightened enough don't go well together. What people forget though is that one can form a new party that is different from the established ones, it is then up to the voters whether they want something new or whether they want to stay with what they know and don't like. In the latter case I'll not shut up telling them they're not behaving in a very clever way. I'm in no way saying the pirate party has all the solutions but if the other parties feel there is some competition, they usually start to reconsider their stance.

On that topic we have a funny situation here in Germany where Merkel does whatever is popular with some exceptions, yet she is criticized for not having her own opinion. So people need to decide whether they want politicians who do what the voters want or politicians who do what they think is right regardless of the opinions of the voters. One thing is for sure, you can never make everyone happy, regardless of the politics you choose.

Bollocks the ECB doesnt need a state to work with it only needs to act like a central bank (which it doesnt at present) national vetoes dont come into it.

The ECB is interperating it's charter in a very narrow scope because it revels in being most independent central bank in the world. No central bank would have done the things it did the last 4yrs from raising interest rates to threatening to cut off funding to it's own banking system.

there is something rotten at the heart of europe but it aint nationalism (the standard genuflection of europhiles) rather instead it's congenital-elitism of an unelected bureaucratic caste.

No need for asset levy outside of Cyprus - Eurogroup head

THERE will be no need to impose a levy on assets in other euro zone countries along the lines of that Cyprus plans on bank deposits to limit the size of emergency loans it needs, the chairman of euro zone finance ministers said on Tuesday.

Cyprus plans a levy on deposits above €20,000 of 6.75pc and 9.9pc on deposits higher than €100,000, to raise cash for the recapitalisation of its oversized banking sector, hit hard by the Greek sovereign debt restructuring.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This raised concerns that a similar measure could be used in other euro zone countries, undermining depositors' confidence in banks. But Dutch Finance Minister Jeroen Dijsselbloem, who chairs meetings of euro zone ministers, said it would not happen in other countries.

"It is absolutely out of the question, there is no need for a one-off levy in other countries on assets," Dijsselbloem said in the Dutch parliament.

He reiterated that because of the size of the Cypriot banking sector and its recapitalisation needs, it was inevitable that depositors had to be called on to help.

thankfully saner ideas seem to be coming through on Cyprus anyone under 20000 is exempt

[InsaneApache]

t was inevitable that depositors had to be called on to help.

They're not called on or asked. They were told and effectively mugged. Also that it wont happen in other countries? If you believe that, I have a bridge........etc

[gaelic cowboy]

They're not called on or asked. They were told and effectively mugged. Also that it wont happen in other countries? If you believe that, I have a bridge........etc

Seems like it will happily be defeated in a vote anyway apprently the votes off for now

[Fragony]

Not so pleased the people in Cyprus are with a Flemish ferret who looks like an owl who just dropped from a tree, a German who has been good after the war since 1945 and a Portugese waitor. Time to reconsider things a bit no. Cyprus bank are in trouble because Russia/russiuan maffia took their money back, and that is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth your honour

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, and the plebiscite also cheered for Total War 70 years ago. As for the problem at hand, that's what I'm talking about instead of the usual "they did it wrong in the 90ies, I blame the europhiles of the 90ies" that I got in return. The problem at hand requires more political integration and that is blocked by the same plebiscite which is complaining about the problem at hand.
I can't make the Euro workable alone, it requires the votes of many so why would I not complain about them being wrong? Or are you suggesting I become emperor of the northern euro zone and institute a new NorthernEuro that excludes the southern countries of the eurozone? That also makes sense only if the plebiscite are not enlightened enough to vote for such an option...

Ah yes, the Germans don't believe in democracy because it elected Hitler.

Oddly, neither did Hitler.

Yes, Germany should leave the Euro - Germany's economy is not compatible with the majority of the block. Once Germany leaves the other countries in the Eurozone will become more competetive, and the D-Mark is not even projected to rise in value that much, which shows the influence you have.

[Husar]

Ah yes, the Germans don't believe in democracy because it elected Hitler.

Oddly, neither did Hitler.

Wrong event, I'm not aware of people cheering for total war before they elected Hitler. As such I also wasn't saying that I or Germans don't believe in democracy.

Yes, Germany should leave the Euro - Germany's economy is not compatible with the majority of the block. Once Germany leaves the other countries in the Eurozone will become more competetive, and the D-Mark is not even projected to rise in value that much, which shows the influence you have.

We have parties that want to leave the Eurozone I think, but they don't get enough support in elections even though most Germans seem to view the change to the Euro as a mistake and are against spending of their tax money for bailing our banks or other countries or our banks' investments in other countries out.

(cos inflation is gonna eat my baby or summit)

Yes, if the inflation does not apply to wages in the same way, then some people will have trouble feeding their babies.

[a completely inoffensive name]

There have been so many scares, I don't know what to be afraid of anymore. Should I be afraid of Cyprus's decision?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

We have parties that want to leave the Eurozone I think, but they don't get enough support in elections even though most Germans seem to view the change to the Euro as a mistake and are against spending of their tax money for bailing our banks or other countries or our banks' investments in other.

That's the same as the UK - people vote on domestic politics, and they don't consider Europe domestic. That rather puts a damper on "further integration" if even the Germans aren't interested.

[InsaneApache]

FFS can we have at least one thread that mentions Germany without Hitler being chucked in the mix again. Even for a Monty Python fan it's getting very thin.