What does any of that have to do with anything?Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
What does any of that have to do with anything?
Last edited by Greyblades; 03-21-2013 at 17:34.
Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
It has everything to do with everything.
EU is criticized, most vocally on these boards by Furunculus, because it is a supra-national organization. In lay terms, it won't work because a guy from Marseille doesn't care for a guy from Krakow, and a guy from Ljubljana doesn't care for a guy from Copenhagen, you get the concept. On the other hand, in a nation state, supposedly, people do care about each other, so a guy from London cares about a guy from Edinburgh.
And, it's bollox, naturally, for two reasons
1) Nation state exists for a very small amount of time in human history. The concept of nation state isn't the same in all countries. The concept of nation itself isn't the same everywhere and at all times. British nationality, which I used, exists for a relatively short time, and may cease to exist when/if Scotland declares independence. Since Great Britain was created by the Act of the Union between Scotland and England, if Scotland secedes, there will be no British nationality in that sense, we're back to English and Scots, as citizens of two nation states that haven't existed for three centuries. There are numerous examples like that, another being Yugoslavia where up to a certain point number of people who declared as Yugoslavians was on a significant rise only to drop to just a few in later years. In the space of a decade or two, a few million people changed their position on their nationality. So, not only the idea of what nation state is that change over time, the core components of that nation may change their idea as well.
2) Second reason is purely selfish - I do agree that a guy from Marseille doesn't care for a guy from Krakow, but I also think that when **** hits the fan, a guy from London doesn't care any more for a guy from Edinburgh. It's all fine and dandy when it's all fine and dandy, but if the guy from London had to choose between seriously tightening his belt or telling the guy from Edinburgh to fend for himself, I'm certain that he would tell him to **** off. For example, since the crisis, there has been a steady increase in general indifference to Kosovo situation in Serbia, which is now at a point where I'm pretty sure there wouldn't even be mass protests if Serbia recognized Kosovo. People are focusing on their own problems, they worry about paying back their loans and keeping their jobs. Yeah, sure, Kosovo is very nice, it's important and all, but they can't eat it, if push comes to shove. Likewise, it is quite natural and normal when people are tightening their belts are crying murder if they feel that someone else is taking an additional dime from them. It happens in the nation state and in supra-national state. There are other examples as well, like Italy and Spain.
Once we are past this, we can focus on the real problems of the EU.
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Yeah cool that you can parrot your preferred ideology but I could not give a fig, what has your strawman character assassination diatribe of Furunculus earlier have to do with anything.
Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Que?
Strawman? Character assassination?
I was quite clearly disagreeing with his position, not attacking him. The only reason he's mentioned by name is because he's been arguing that case more frequently than anyone else and was mentioned in that capacity by at least two posters, and only after that did I mention why I disagreed with his opinion on the issue. Maybe you haven't read most of the thread, I know it's quite long, but that has been the most prominent point of friction throughout it.
I don't really see a problem here, but whatever strikes your fancy...
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Ah crud.
"Slight" overreaction on my part but I found the bit you said about British/english/anglo saxon yada-yada irrelevent and coming from nowhere, your second post seemed to ignore that and I got annoyed, and annoyed means irrational apparantly.
You know that feeling when you just realised you said something wrong? It sucks.
Last edited by Greyblades; 03-22-2013 at 00:04.
Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
1200 hundred years here and counting.Nation state exists for a very small amount of time in human history.
There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”
To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.
"The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Yeah, not really, no. Even the kingdom of England was only founded in the 920ties and that wasn't yet a nationstate.
Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default
Not a bad summation, more or less exactly what is said four years ago.
More vintage Furunculus:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2269201
Regarding the relative good will to edinburgh vs krakow, well we are about to find out in less than eighteen months.............. Watch this space!it always comes back to the question of; why does britain need to do this? and i at least never hear a convincing answer.
my skepticism about how democratic a federal EU will be is informed by the base concept of what democracy is:
which is to say that you and I consent to be governed by the british government because the shared values, culture, and history will 'ensure' that those elected to govern in your name will do so in a manner that you can live with.
you elect a local politician based on his knowledge of your communities needs, and the assumption that because he is local he will fight to see those needs met.
your local politician then works with other broadly similar (read: british) politicians to govern the nation, which as Churchill agreed is the least bad form of governance yet devised.
it is a matter of trust, you don't lightly let convicted thieves operate tills in your shop, you don't let unvetted strangers run your kids play-group.
i don't have that confidence that the brussels collective will legislate/govern/arbitrate/negotiate in a manner that i am willing to be bound by, and lots of other people share that view too. and its not just brits, Louis would be horrified were it occur that les anglo-saxons had turned corsica into a tax-haven where french hedge fund managers could squirrel away money that should be spent on the hard working french citizen! i am dismayed that germany cuts energy deals with russia that result in pipelines going around former eastern-bloc countries and thus making them susceptible to extortion. finland doesn't like our closeness with america and refuses to join NATO. Norway sees the benefit of NATO but not much advantage in the political end of the EU. germany wouldn't trust an italian or a greek to be within a square mile of german economic policy.
every nation forms its collective values from their own shared history and culture, and none of that is bad in and of itself, but people get riled when views they do not hold to be of value are forced upon them by 'outsiders'. "it's one thing for my mother to tell me i drink too much, but who the hell does my milkman think he is to say such a thing!"
the natural answer to this lack of legitimacy is an increase in authoritarianism, as the only way to govern those who hold no loyalty to the governors. aka tryanny.
so when there is no need for britain to join a federated europe, and the only result is less representative government................ why do it?
Last edited by Furunculus; 03-24-2013 at 17:41.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
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