Report the fact that they are missing, not that they have been stolen. There's a fine line between declaring theft and a spontaneous congregation of pitchfork enthusiasts.Originally Posted by Furunculus
Re: The Morality of Petty Theft
Report the fact that they are missing, not that they have been stolen. There's a fine line between declaring theft and a spontaneous congregation of pitchfork enthusiasts.
Re: The Morality of Petty Theft
Your colleagues are greedy lawyers; it has to be one of them. And he who did it, knows you were going to blame it on the cleaning lady, so there was no risk whatsoever to steal your headphones. Steal something back from their desks next week
Meh, if you're 100 % sure that the cleaning lady did it, but you would feel bad to report it, because of Christmas and you being a good person, then why don't do something completely unexpected: give her a Christmas present: an i-phone with headphones.
Before you all start thinking I'm a saint: I would first have thoroughly looked everywhere in the office, even at my colleagues' desks. If no headphone, I would have talked to the lady. I would have told her I would report it, to see if she would admit it and give back the headphones. And I would have actually reported it, even if she would have given the headphones back. Regardless of social background: you don't steal. It doesn't matter if the thief is a highly-paid lawyer or the cleaning lady. I have a pretty modest background myself. My grandfather was poor and my father grew up in poverty the first 10 years of his youth. They didn't steal. My grandfather worked hard, every day, and he himself (not his wife and children!) ate dry bread most of the time, so he could save money to buy a house. Even for the smallest lie, my grandfather would get upset and would punish me. He had a house, two pieces of land, a decent amount of savings and no debts whatsoever at his dead. Being poor doesn't mean you have to steal. As far as I'm concerned, the sole fact that a person is poor, doesn't gain my sympathy. The attitude of people who are proud and decent while being poor, that's something that makes me bow my head in deep respect. But that's just me.
But maybe giving her an i-phone for Christmas instead of reporting it will have better results to change her attitude in life. Personally, I believe in the harsh approach, not the soft one.
Last edited by Andres; 12-07-2010 at 14:21.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Re: The Morality of Petty Theft
The proper legal course of action to take is straightforward.
For $8950 I'll advice you about it. Mind that's $8950 an hour. If you pay, you get your $30 headphones back. If you don't pay, we'll then you just got legally robbed of $30 and there's nothing you can do about it.
Re: The Morality of Petty Theft
ah, i see, report it missing, explaining how there is no reason you can think of for it not to be exactly where you left it; on your desk.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: The Morality of Petty Theft
I would just let it go. But if anything happens again just let her know that you know. If I was very well off I would feel very bad risking that person losing their job.
Yes theft is bad but **** happens and people need to get over it, how can you feel bad for long when you walk back into your luxury house. It's just not worth it.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: The Morality of Petty Theft
I find that a better system would be to give part of my earnings for a safety net as opposed to having things taken which then might be resold. I think that is called... taxes and they take over 30% of my salary.
I'm sorry this is not somehow "proactive charity" where those who want to receive just help themselves.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Re: The Morality of Petty Theft
So, if TinCow would be a guy with a crappy job in a fastfood restaurant, it would be ok to report it and see the cleaning lady be fired before Christmas?
Everybody has the right to get fired if he's stealing on his workplace. Not reporting the cleaning lady is clearly a case of discrimination. Would you think twice if it was your co-worker - wellpaid lawyer who did it? It's also a case of condescendingly looking down on the lower classes. "Pfuh, it's just the lower than low cleaning lady. I'm not going to report such a person. That's far below my own status. It's only 30 $; she has to work half a day for that kind of money, me only 5 minutes."
All kidding aside, I'm more and more with rory on this one. I think this is a case of a completely misplaced feeling of guilt.
This should be a no-brainer: thief -> report.
How would you feel if the day before Christmas the cleaning lady would steal something else from one of your colleagues, let's say a watch they got from their fiancée for Valentine's day? Or their wedding wring they put off for a sec for whatever reason.
Last edited by Andres; 12-07-2010 at 16:22.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Re: The Morality of Petty Theft
What if it was a half-empty soda bottle?
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: The Morality of Petty Theft
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Re: The Morality of Petty Theft
No, it's a serious question... And a relevant one too, soda bottles and similar stuff have a tendency to "get lost" on quite a few workplaces....
But I take your rolling eyes to mean that you wouldn't report a stolen soda bottle? If so, you've drawn a line between what can be tolerated and what can't, and then it isn't that absurd to draw the line a few bucks up the line, is it?
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: The Morality of Petty Theft
OMG personal attack!!!
Of course the woman has no right to complain if she gets fired, where did I say otherwise?
I said it would be a nice thing to do if TinCow didn't have her fired. The fact he isn't obliged to do it is what makes it a nice thing to do.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: The Morality of Petty Theft
Theft, or even the suspicion of theft, for a cleaner in America in all likelyhood means the end of her job, of this job. On which her family might be dependent.
So I think you have to be pretty darned sure before you accuse her of stealing. 95% sure is not good enough. 99% isn't either.
Indeed, socio-economical disparities really do have everything to do with it, as do power structures. That would take me a lenghty essay to explain. So instead, as a tangentially related but useful comparison, compare the fear a man in some position of authority, however slight - police officer, teacher, priest - feels for the accusiation of sexual harrasment.
In a liberal environment, say a university, a man's career is pretty much over the minute a single female student accuses him of harassment. The suspicion will always remain, the social damage is done, the career is over.
One has to be sure about the allegation, one has got to be certain of the case before reporting harassment. 95%, or even 99%, is not good enough.
Re: The Morality of Petty Theft
Property is an extension of the person. To harm or take another's property is to harm them.
Rory's coming up aces on this one.
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Re: The Morality of Petty Theft
Yes. That way you have stated no-more than you actually know to be fact. The accusation of theft immediately implies wrong-doing which, unless you can prove, you have no right to go spreading.
I would say that a neutral message put around the office saying "have you seen a pair of white headphones, last seen [here] at [this] time, please return to me if you find them -thanks!", would be the way to go. That way if they were stolen, a) the culprit will know they are missed (and should feel a dollop of guilt); b) the cuplrit will be less confident of repeating the feat if they know missing items are reported so widely each time. And importantly, you won't have launched into a morale eroding clamp-down, only for the headphones to turn up.
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