Islamist bomb attack on Sthlm, Sweden.

[rory_20_uk]

Some people just refuse to accept that there are other inteerpretations than OBL's.

Muslims are just as capable of emphasizing different things in the quran as christians are with the bible. There will be muslims who emphasize violence, and there will be muslims who emphasize peace, and they can both find support for their position in the quran. Just like both feminists and those who believe women belong in the kitchen can find support for their position in the bible. Or the quran for that matter.

I know christians who say that their god is opposed to any and all violence. And I was in the army with a christian who refered to himself as a holy warrior.

As soon as Christians start blowing themselves up then they need monitoring. If Girl Guides start doing it then they need monitoring.

It's what they do, not why they do it.

[HoreTore]

As soon as Christians start blowing themselves up then they need monitoring. If Girl Guides start doing it then they need monitoring.

It's what they do, not why they do it.

How was that related to what I was talking about?

[Louis VI the Fat]

As soon as Christians start blowing themselves up then they need monitoring. If Girl Guides start doing it then they need monitoring.

It's what they do, not why they do it.

Yes.

I find that I have never in the very slightest been at all interested in which Koranic verse or whose prophet says what that legitimises which violent act, or not.


Why should I care? I care about it not at all more than I do whether a street mugger wants to steal my wallet for flashy sneakers or new gold teeth.
I don't care what you've read in your fantasy books, whether Sauron has told you I'm an evil hobbit or whether *certain man with an uncommon marital choice* promised you dozens of virgins. It's all fine with me, just don't involve me, for example, by blowimg me up.

[The Celtic Viking]

Well, besides enabling us to do something about it, the reason why it's important to point out that they're doing it because of their religious beliefs is because of all the lies they spread, which leftists so eagerly swallow. They are not attacking us for anything that we have done or anything that we are doing: they are attacking us because their religion tells them to do so. We need to be very clear on the fact that we have every right to fight them, and that continuing this road of appeasement will not make them stop. It will only embolden them to make more and more demands, until we've been completely stripped of our liberties and are forced to live our whole lives by their instructions.

[Hax]

The irony being the fact that what The Celtic Viking just posted could've been said by a member of al-Qaeda. It's interesting to see how al-Zarqawi's perception and TCV's perception of Islam are exactly the same.

[The Celtic Viking]

The irony being the fact that what The Celtic Viking just posted could've been said by a member of al-Qaeda. It's interesting to see how al-Zarqawi's perception and TCV's perception of Islam are exactly the same.

No, what I said could not be said by a member of al-Qaeda, because they rather support the islamization of the west, remember? What I said is that we need to fight against it.

As for my perception of Islam, I'm only going by how muslims consistently portray it, and by what it's authoritative texts are telling me about it. I mean, if I invented a religion right here and now that called for violence and massmurder, and I then commited violence and massmurder, pointing to my religion to justify it... could people really fault you if you saw that religion as being a violent one that supports massmurder? Would it make your view on it more or less false because it happened to be the same as mine?

[Hax]

No, what I said could not be said by a member of al-Qaeda, because they rather support the islamization of the west, remember? What I said is that we need to fight against it.

Swap a couple of words around and you have their basic message.

As for my perception of Islam, I'm only going by how muslims consistently portray it, and by what it's authoritative texts are telling me about it. I mean, if I invent a religion right here and right now that calls for violence and massmurder, and I then commit violence and massmurder, pointing to my religion to justify it... could people really fault you if you saw that religion as being a violent one that supports massmurder? Would it make your view on it more or less false because it happened to be the same as mine?

I don't think Islam or any religion is inherently violent. Neither the Qur'an nor Islamic history argue that Islam is a violent religion, as we've seen that notable Islamic scholars, even from right after Muhammad's death have re-interpreted the Qur'an to say something else. The Sabians of Iraq? Not necessarily protected under Islamic law, but they managed to interpret several scriptures to say they were. The status of Buddhists and Hindus? They largely lived as dhimmis and were not regarded as kafirun by the Muslim conquerors.

the reason why it's important to point out that they're doing it because of their religious beliefs is because of all the lies they spread

Is this a reference to the Shi'ite concept of taqiyyah? Or is it just a general attack in the direction of Muslims that spread lies?

they are attacking us because their religion tells them to do so.

Oh yeah? Then where are the historical mass murders? I don't see any Muslims barging my door down now to kill me. Are they barging your door in?

You're pretending, or it looks like you are, at least, that true Muslims are obliged to kill non-Muslims all the time, everywhere without ceasing. And thus, Muslims that are not doing that are Muslims-lite. I'm inclined to believe the opposite, that the ones who call for the mass-murder of non-Muslims are the Muslims-lite. You'll see that institutions like al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood were founded by and still have a core of people with no background in Islamic theology. Sayyid Qutb? A school teacher. Osama bin Laden? Trained as an engineer in Switzerland. Al-Zarqawi? An alcoholic thug with very little schooling at all.

And let's not forget that terrorist groups have killed more Muslims than other people. Some of them even call for the death of secular Muslims. Y'know, the same secular Muslims you don't trust either, apparently.

[The Celtic Viking]

Swap a couple of words around and you have their basic message.

Uh, no. If you think they could, without lying their teeth out, then I have no idea what world you're living in. Seriously.

I don't think Islam or any religion is inherently violent.

Have you read the Quran? The Hadith? Any of the quotes I gave you? No?

Neither the Qur'an nor Islamic history argue that Islam is a violent religion

You didn't, and you haven't. You're even willing to rewrite history to keep your little delusion.

Not necessarily protected under Islamic law, but they managed to interpret several scriptures to say they were. The status of Buddhists and Hindus? They largely lived as dhimmis and were not regarded as kafirun by the Muslim conquerors.

And I suppose you've bought into this lie that the life of a dhimmi is, was or will ever be the same as tolerance? Or respect? It wasn't. It's why Christians are referred to as "street sweepers" in muslim countries, because dhimmis are relegated to that kind of demeaning work. The point is that they have to not just be subdued, but constantly feel themselves to be like that as well.

Is this a reference to the Shi'ite concept of taqiyyah? Or is it just a general attack in the direction of Muslims that spread lies?

Taqiyya isn't just a shiite doctrine, it's in sunni islam as well. It's based on Muhammed himself, when he told an assassin that he had the right to lie if he had to do it in order to murder his target (a jew who was saying bad things about islam).

Oh yeah?

Yeah.

Then where are the historical mass murders? I don't see any Muslims barging my door down now to kill me. Are they barging your door in?

...

Wow. Just... wow. Perhaps you'd like to read the story that this very thread is about?

I mean... wow. You can't be this... wow.

You're pretending, or it looks like you are, at least, that true Muslims are obliged to kill non-Muslims all the time, everywhere without ceasing.

Sigh. I'm getting the feeling that you're just trolling me now. Not all jihadis are active in killing people all the time. You are strawmanning me, because you know very well that you have no real argument.

And thus, Muslims that are not doing that are Muslims-lite. I'm inclined to believe the opposite, that the ones who call for the mass-murder of non-Muslims are the Muslims-lite.

There's plenty of passages that supports my view in the Quran, the Hadith and islamic jurisprudence. You, on the other hand, have nothing to point to. You have no basis for that belief. We'd all like the world to be a pink, perfect little land where everyone could get along and sing kumbaya, but that's not the reality that we live in. It's dangerous not to acknowledge that.

You'll see that institutions like al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood were founded by and still have a core of people with no background in Islamic theology. Sayyid Qutb? A school teacher. Osama bin Laden? Trained as an engineer in Switzerland. Al-Zarqawi? An alcoholic thug with very little schooling at all.

And yet, they have perfect support from the Quran, the Hadith and islamic jurisprudence, and nothing that disagrees with them. But never mind that! They must be wrong! Why? Because I believe so!

And let's not forget that terrorist groups have killed more Muslims than other people.

So what? Of course there's infighting in islam. I know this. This isn't exactly an argument for why islam is a peaceful religion.

Some of them even call for the death of secular Muslims. Y'know, the same secular Muslims you don't trust either, apparently.

Where were these secular muslims during the whole Danish cartoons drama? We had muslims murdering people in racist attacks, we had muslims demonstrating against it in countries that generally don't allow demonstrations, we had burning of embassies and condemnations of free speech all over. We had "moderate" muslims saying that this was the cartoonists fault. I heard no muslim stand up for secularism or free speech. Why is this, do you think?

[rvg]

It's what they do, not why they do it.

Exactly. A religion is only as good as its followers.

[Fragony]

Exactly. A religion is only as good as its followers.

But can't really say they are them, 'they' are mostly 'their' problem. It's a bit silly to put no effort in trying to understand what drives them. I'm as uncompromising as can be when it comes to these beards but if there is a cultural clash I want to know why.

[Hax]

But can't really say they are them, 'they' are mostly 'their' problem. It's a bit silly to put no effort in trying to understand what drives them. I'm as uncompromising as can be when it comes to these beards but if there is a cultural clash I want to know why.

Exactly. We need to differentiate.

[Devastatin Dave]

There is nothing that makes my nipples harder than watching the "tolerant" do the most amazing display of word definition gymnastics when trying to protect their pet religion of Islam. You would think George Bush was clubbing a baby seal with the jaw bone of an endangered white rino while doing a slash/burn of 10,000 acres of rainforest in order to build a coal plant for the production of coal to use to power oil rigs from the wailing and gnashing of teeth at any utterance of the teachings of good old peaceful Islam...
Proofs in the circumcised vagina as they say...

[HoreTore]

Oh yes, female circumcision, the african practice performed by members of a dozen religions.

[Fragony]

There is nothing that makes my nipples harder than watching the "tolerant" do the most amazing display of word definition gymnastics when trying to protect their pet religion of Islam. You would think George Bush was clubbing a baby seal with the jaw bone of an endangered white rino while doing a slash/burn of 10,000 acres of rainforest in order to build a coal plant for the production of coal to use to power oil rigs from the wailing and gnashing of teeth at any utterance of the teachings of good old peaceful Islam...
Proofs in the circumcised vagina as they say...

People who say the Islam isn't violent can't read, but fact remains that only a tiny percentage of western muslims are violent. They may aprove violence when you ask them, Qu'ran says, but they aren't violent themselves. We don't have the balls to do what needs to be done, treating the real radicals like foreign spies in wartime, we are at war with radical Islam after all

[Hax]

Yes, and the very last thing we need to do is pretend that all Muslims are a potential threat, alienating those Muslims who are opposed to the radicals. After all, as you said, it's their battle.