Secularists having a paddy over the KJV Bible Readings

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Here you go Rhy, get upset about this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/t...n-Radio-4.html

So, what do we think, is 16 hours out of one day after 400 years too much for one of the most important and influencial books ever written into English?

Or are the secularists just getting upset because someone is taking religion seriously (even in a mainly cultural context) once in a blue moon?

[HoreTore]

How would the church react to the BBC braodcasting a 16-hour special entitled Getting gay with other men: how AYONE can explore their homosexual sexfantasies outside the shackles of married life....?

Or hey, let the BBC mark(!) Marx' anniversary with a 16-hour reading of Das Kapital. Or celebrate the first Labour government with a 16-hour reading of Labour's party programme. Yeah, sounds like something christians and conservatives won't be upset about. It's just those hateful secularists and their evil ways!!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

How would the church react to the BBC braodcasting a 16-hour special entitled Getting gay with other men: how AYONE can explore their homosexual sexfantasies outside the shackles of married life....?

Or hey, let the BBC mark(!) Marx' anniversary with a 16-hour reading of Das Kapital. Or celebrate the first Labour government with a 16-hour reading of Labour's party programme. Yeah, sounds like something christians and conservatives won't be upset about. It's just those hateful secularists and their evil ways!!

Is it a famous and world-changing book?

[HoreTore]

Is it a famous and world-changing book?

The sexual revolution has changed the world, yes.

Communism changed the world, yes.

Social democracy has changed the world, yes.

[rory_20_uk]

Thankfully there are enough channels to ignore this. I quite enjoy Theology, but not merely reciting an almac.

[Beskar]

I don't care, as I won't be watching it.

Was I meant to get upset and cry? Where is my paddy?

[Louis VI the Fat]

The Bible is a book of enormous cultural and historical significance for Britain. The KJV was very influential in the development of British religous traditions and even the English language.

It does not seem excessive to devote a day to its fourth centennial. All (educated) Britons ought to have some basic understanding of the central elements of the book.


The National Secular Society does excellent work in protecting the British from privileges granted to organised mass religion, and in lifting the UK above superstitions, witch hunts, and Middle Eastern death cults. But it should pick its battles better. (If it is at all interested in starting any serious fight over this, which I'm not so sure about)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The sexual revolution has changed the world, yes.

Really? So what was Anselm complaining about to William II when he said he wanted the King to reform the practices of his court?

Communism changed the world, yes.

In a good way?

Social democracy has changed the world, yes.

Really? I still have a Queen, you still have a King, Frag still have a Queen..... the Americans elect their Kings, but only from among their political elite....

None of this address the point.

Like it or not (I assume "not" in your case) the "King James" Version of the Bible is in and of itself an incredibly influencial book, far apart from being a Bible translation, which has changed the English language anywhere it is spoken.

[HoreTore]

Really? So what was Anselm complaining about to William II when he said he wanted the King to reform the practices of his court?

Do I even care....?

In a good way?

No, but neither have christianity.

Really? I still have a Queen, you still have a King, Frag still have a Queen..... the Americans elect their Kings, but only from among their political elite....

Removing the monarchy hasn't been a cause for the social democrats. But the poorest of the poor now has access to health care, housing, clothes, doesn't die from starvation, etc etc. This is in a big part thanks to the policies of the social democratic governments of Europe. That is a change in the world.

None of this address the point.

Like it or not (I assume "not" in your case) the "King James" Version of the Bible is in and of itself an incredibly influencial book, far apart from being a Bible translation, which has changed the English language anywhere it is spoken.

Like it or not, so is the homosexual liberation, the rise of communism and the social democracy.

Are you telling me the church would be fine with a 16-hour special with marxist, gay or labour propaganda...?

Oh wait, we have recent presedent here: NRK, our version of the BBC, has shown a series called "Threesome" this fall, where three youngsters explore the sexual world. The result was something like 15000 angry letters from christians before they even knew what the show was about. All they knew was the name, how the presenters looked and that it was about sex. That was enough for thousands of "tolerant" christians all over the country to furiously harass NRK and demand the show cancelled. A show they had never seen and knew next to nothing about. And it's 8x30 minutes here, not 16 hours.

Yay, the tolerance of christians knows no limit!

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think the more reasonable secularists will be OK with this and appreciate the significance of the KJV. Some of the New Athiests will inevitably get upset, but they do that a lot. They are mostly middle-aged men with over-controlling wives, they need an outless for their rebelliousness.

Or hey, let the BBC mark(!) Marx' anniversary with a 16-hour reading of Das Kapital. Or celebrate the first Labour government with a 16-hour reading of Labour's party programme. Yeah, sounds like something christians and conservatives won't be upset about. It's just those hateful secularists and their evil ways!!

I woudn't mind if the BBC did specials like this on either of those things. So long as you don't mean the modern day Labour's party programme, if I hear that all day as I speed down the motorway I might feel the urge to wrap myself around a tree. If you want to go back to the Independent Labour Party, that would be OK.

[HoreTore]

I woudn't mind if the BBC did specials like this on either of those things. So long as you don't mean the modern day Labour's party programme, if I hear that all day as I speed down the motorway I might feel the urge to wrap myself around a tree. If you want to go back to the Independent Labour Party, that would be OK.

.....And I don't give a crap about what special the state sends. Nor do I care, for example, that my state broadcaster sends church services on TV. But then again, we're reasonable people, Rhy.


But you can't say with a straight face that there won't be a lot of christians who'd riot over 16 hours of gay/communist/labour propaganda.

[Furunculus]

How would the church react to the BBC braodcasting a 16-hour special entitled Getting gay with other men: how AYONE can explore their homosexual sexfantasies outside the shackles of married life....?

Or hey, let the BBC mark(!) Marx' anniversary with a 16-hour reading of Das Kapital. Or celebrate the first Labour government with a 16-hour reading of Labour's party programme. Yeah, sounds like something christians and conservatives won't be upset about. It's just those hateful secularists and their evil ways!!

if it's the church of england then they probably sponsored it as part of their touchy-feely outreach and empathise agenda. they're pretty limp-wristed these days, no burning brands and hellfire damnnation left.

[Idaho]

A day all about the book would be very interesting. It's history, it's influences, the politics behind it's creation and interpretation. It's lasting legacy. Focussing on chapters, how it's been used, etc, etc - all that would be great.

But 16 hours of sola scriptura? Credit us with a bit more intelligence.

[Rhyfelwyr]

But you can't say with a straight face that there won't be a lot of christians who'd riot over 16 hours of gay/communist/labour propaganda.

Yeah I put my hands up there. When it comes to getting upset over petty things, old women are to Christianity what men having a mid-life crisis are to secular humanism.

[Vuk]

No, but neither have christianity.

In all my time on the Org, I have NEVER heard someone make a more uninformed or ignorant statement in my entire life. If you truly believe that, then you do not know your history. Believe in it or not, love it or hate it, but there can be no doubt that the overall impact that Christianity has had on the world has been positive.

[rory_20_uk]

Believe in it or not, love it or hate it, but there can be no doubt that the overall impact that Christianity has had on the world has been positive.

What an all encompassing statement!

Who has no doubt? What is this based upon? Leaving aside the rather lazy methodology of pointing out the hundreds of events where Catholicism especially destroyed and subjugated, building models that can assess a present without Christianity would be very difficult to construct.

[HoreTore]

In all my time on the Org, I have NEVER heard someone make a more uninformed or ignorant statement in my entire life. If you truly believe that, then you do not know your history. Believe in it or not, love it or hate it, but there can be no doubt that the overall impact that Christianity has had on the world has been positive.

Please, do show how a christian middle age with all its fundamentalism was better than a middle age dominated by the Greek or Roman culture would've been.

[Vuk]

Please, do show how a christian middle age with all its fundamentalism was better than a middle age dominated by the Greek or Roman culture would've been.

Of course that relies on the entire premise of a there being such a 'middle age', which is a humanist (ie, Greco-Roman) concept that I reject. The very belief in a middle age argues for the superiority of the pagan Greek and Roman traditions.
Can we agree on this HoreTore? That the concept of individual human rights is essential to an enlightened way of life? The entire concept of human rights is a Christian one, and was not found in Greece or Rome, and was nowhere to be found anywhere in the East. The very idea that a human life has worth beyond what it earned and can defend by force of arms originated from Christian beliefs. People are brutal, evil, and selfish by nature, and will always strive to hurt those around them. Pagan religions only made this easier and justified it. Yes, people claiming to be Christians did horrible things, but without a basic belief that human beings are created in the image of God, are His children, and therefore have rights and worth given to them by an all-powerful being, the world would have turned out to be a far more barbaric, brutal place, and the resulting human misery would have made the so-called 'middle ages' pale by comparison.

[Beskar]

Age of Enlightenment is superior.

[HoreTore]

What? Human rights is an exclusively christian concept? I don't accept that human rights have anything yo do with christianity at all. Jesus was born 1700 years before human rights were discussed, and he is somehow behind them....?

Funny too, that the increase in civil liberties and freedom directly corresponds with the decline of christianty.

I'll also point out that our legal system is built upon Roman law, not christian law. And our philosophy is built upon the Greek philosophers. Our system of government is from Athens, before disappearing during the christian fundamentalist states of the middle ages... Our economy? Not a christian product either, jesus wasn't so big on lending, better leave that to the juice, they're going to hell anyway.... Oh, and guess what alphabet I'm using? And what are our numbers called? "Jesusnumbers"? I think not. And I could go on....

[Rhyfelwyr]

Funny too, that the increase in civil liberties and freedom directly corresponds with the decline of christianty.

Or the decline of Catholicism, and the rise of Protestantism?

Anyway, answers in bold below...

I'll also point out that our legal system is built upon Roman law, not christian law. Who is this we? For Vuk, PVC, and myself, common law is more important And our philosophy is built upon the Greek philosophers. Only in the context they were placed in by medieval theologians Our system of government is from Athens, before disappearing during the christian fundamentalist states of the middle ages... Eh, Athenian democracy is not very comparable to modern liberal democracy, a better comparison would be Puritan England Our economy? Not a christian product either, jesus wasn't so big on lending, better leave that to the juice, they're going to hell anyway.... What about Mr. Weber, the Protestant ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism?

[HoreTore]

Or the decline of Catholicism, and the rise of Protestantism?

Anyway, answers in bold below...

No need to prove Christianity's sectarian infighting and bickering, we are already aware of that

[Rhyfelwyr]

The fact that you see it as infighting shows that you don't really understand it.

[HoreTore]

The fact that you see it as infighting shows that you don't really understand it.

You blame bad stuff on the catholics, a catholic might blame all the worlds evil on you protestants... Oh, and let's have a little game of "who is really a proper christian?" shall we?

[a completely inoffensive name]

I hope every woman tunes in to hear them read Timothy 2:12.

[Rhyfelwyr]

You blame bad stuff on the catholics, a catholic might blame all the worlds evil on you protestants... Oh, and let's have a little game of "who is really a proper christian?" shall we?

Any yet the Catholics would be wrong.

I do not think Catholicism has been all bad for the world, they only are when it suits them. Right now an Inquisition wouldn't go down too well, so instead they promise the peace of this world and not the true peace offered by the gospel. They promise peace and unity and so the whole world flocks after the beast, even most of Protestantism. But it is the peace of this world and not the peace Jesus offered, who said himself "Think not that I am come to send upon the earth, I send not peace, but a sword" (Mat 10:35).

So I do not care how much bad stuff on earth is down to Catholicism, since that is not the peace I am interested in.

Eh, don't mind me, I'm feeling millenarian today...

I hope every woman tunes in to hear them read Timothy 2:12.

So do I.

[Beskar]

What about Songs of Soloman? PVC says he uses it to make women weak at the knees.

[Vuk]

Please, do show how a christian middle age with all its fundamentalism was better than a middle age dominated by the Greek or Roman culture would've been.

...theological imperatives drove the conventional mainstream of science and scholarship to search for mankind's underlying unities. The emphasis of racial investigation was not upon divisions between races, but on race as an accidental, epiphenomenal mask concealing the unitary Adamic origins of a single, extended human family. The deepest impact made by theology on the construction of race was thus, arguably, of a negative kind; quietly, subtly and indirectly, theological needs drew white Europeans into a benign state of denial, a refusal to accept that human racial differences were, literally, anything other than skin deep.

Kidd, Colin. The Forging of Races: Race and Scripture in the Protestant Atlantic World, 1600-2000. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2006.

Christianity at the least served as a hindrance to those who sought to stereotype people based on outward appearance, and to exaggerate racial construction by assigning to those outward appearances negative views. That is one of the many books I have been reading while I am writing the paper for my senior seminar. I have to turn in the final paper by tomorrow morning, so I will not be able to argue this with you till finals are done. When finals are over however, I will be able to show you ample evidence of the overwhelmingly positive effect of Christianity on the world, that will be able to, I believe, convince even one as determined to believe otherwise as you.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Ha! That book is by Colin Kidd!!! He was my seminar tutor last year! Wow, I feel like I've met someone famous!

[Yoyoma1910]

What is a paddy, and how does one go about having one?