Secularists having a paddy over the KJV Bible Readings

[Vuk]

No, but neither have christianity.

In all my time on the Org, I have NEVER heard someone make a more uninformed or ignorant statement in my entire life. If you truly believe that, then you do not know your history. Believe in it or not, love it or hate it, but there can be no doubt that the overall impact that Christianity has had on the world has been positive.

[rory_20_uk]

Believe in it or not, love it or hate it, but there can be no doubt that the overall impact that Christianity has had on the world has been positive.

What an all encompassing statement!

Who has no doubt? What is this based upon? Leaving aside the rather lazy methodology of pointing out the hundreds of events where Catholicism especially destroyed and subjugated, building models that can assess a present without Christianity would be very difficult to construct.

[HoreTore]

In all my time on the Org, I have NEVER heard someone make a more uninformed or ignorant statement in my entire life. If you truly believe that, then you do not know your history. Believe in it or not, love it or hate it, but there can be no doubt that the overall impact that Christianity has had on the world has been positive.

Please, do show how a christian middle age with all its fundamentalism was better than a middle age dominated by the Greek or Roman culture would've been.

[Vuk]

Please, do show how a christian middle age with all its fundamentalism was better than a middle age dominated by the Greek or Roman culture would've been.

Of course that relies on the entire premise of a there being such a 'middle age', which is a humanist (ie, Greco-Roman) concept that I reject. The very belief in a middle age argues for the superiority of the pagan Greek and Roman traditions.
Can we agree on this HoreTore? That the concept of individual human rights is essential to an enlightened way of life? The entire concept of human rights is a Christian one, and was not found in Greece or Rome, and was nowhere to be found anywhere in the East. The very idea that a human life has worth beyond what it earned and can defend by force of arms originated from Christian beliefs. People are brutal, evil, and selfish by nature, and will always strive to hurt those around them. Pagan religions only made this easier and justified it. Yes, people claiming to be Christians did horrible things, but without a basic belief that human beings are created in the image of God, are His children, and therefore have rights and worth given to them by an all-powerful being, the world would have turned out to be a far more barbaric, brutal place, and the resulting human misery would have made the so-called 'middle ages' pale by comparison.

[Beskar]

Age of Enlightenment is superior.

[HoreTore]

What? Human rights is an exclusively christian concept? I don't accept that human rights have anything yo do with christianity at all. Jesus was born 1700 years before human rights were discussed, and he is somehow behind them....?

Funny too, that the increase in civil liberties and freedom directly corresponds with the decline of christianty.

I'll also point out that our legal system is built upon Roman law, not christian law. And our philosophy is built upon the Greek philosophers. Our system of government is from Athens, before disappearing during the christian fundamentalist states of the middle ages... Our economy? Not a christian product either, jesus wasn't so big on lending, better leave that to the juice, they're going to hell anyway.... Oh, and guess what alphabet I'm using? And what are our numbers called? "Jesusnumbers"? I think not. And I could go on....

[Rhyfelwyr]

Funny too, that the increase in civil liberties and freedom directly corresponds with the decline of christianty.

Or the decline of Catholicism, and the rise of Protestantism?

Anyway, answers in bold below...

I'll also point out that our legal system is built upon Roman law, not christian law. Who is this we? For Vuk, PVC, and myself, common law is more important And our philosophy is built upon the Greek philosophers. Only in the context they were placed in by medieval theologians Our system of government is from Athens, before disappearing during the christian fundamentalist states of the middle ages... Eh, Athenian democracy is not very comparable to modern liberal democracy, a better comparison would be Puritan England Our economy? Not a christian product either, jesus wasn't so big on lending, better leave that to the juice, they're going to hell anyway.... What about Mr. Weber, the Protestant ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism?

[HoreTore]

Or the decline of Catholicism, and the rise of Protestantism?

Anyway, answers in bold below...

No need to prove Christianity's sectarian infighting and bickering, we are already aware of that

[Rhyfelwyr]

The fact that you see it as infighting shows that you don't really understand it.

[Vuk]

Please, do show how a christian middle age with all its fundamentalism was better than a middle age dominated by the Greek or Roman culture would've been.

...theological imperatives drove the conventional mainstream of science and scholarship to search for mankind's underlying unities. The emphasis of racial investigation was not upon divisions between races, but on race as an accidental, epiphenomenal mask concealing the unitary Adamic origins of a single, extended human family. The deepest impact made by theology on the construction of race was thus, arguably, of a negative kind; quietly, subtly and indirectly, theological needs drew white Europeans into a benign state of denial, a refusal to accept that human racial differences were, literally, anything other than skin deep.

Kidd, Colin. The Forging of Races: Race and Scripture in the Protestant Atlantic World, 1600-2000. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2006.

Christianity at the least served as a hindrance to those who sought to stereotype people based on outward appearance, and to exaggerate racial construction by assigning to those outward appearances negative views. That is one of the many books I have been reading while I am writing the paper for my senior seminar. I have to turn in the final paper by tomorrow morning, so I will not be able to argue this with you till finals are done. When finals are over however, I will be able to show you ample evidence of the overwhelmingly positive effect of Christianity on the world, that will be able to, I believe, convince even one as determined to believe otherwise as you.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Ha! That book is by Colin Kidd!!! He was my seminar tutor last year! Wow, I feel like I've met someone famous!

[Yoyoma1910]

What is a paddy, and how does one go about having one?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I own a 1870s 'Gentleman's Dictionary'.

It says paddies are best hunted on horseback with hounds, in the open field. They taste somewhat like chicken. Served with any choice of potato dish.

[Beskar]

Other than a slang term for an Irishman, a 'paddy' is a tantrum fit, where some one goes hysterical like a spoilt child.

Infact, here is an amusing video of a child having a paddy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nojWJ6-XmeQ

[jabarto]

When finals are over however, I will be able to show you ample evidence of the overwhelmingly positive effect of Christianity on the world, that will be able to, I believe, convince even one as determined to believe otherwise as you.

I'm going to hold you to this. While I'm not particularly biased against Christianity, you've made some flagrantly absurd claims and I really want to see you justify them.

[al Roumi]

flagrantly absurd claims

What, did Vuk post something?

[HoreTore]

Kidd, Colin. The Forging of Races: Race and Scripture in the Protestant Atlantic World, 1600-2000. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2006.

Christianity at the least served as a hindrance to those who sought to stereotype people based on outward appearance, and to exaggerate racial construction by assigning to those outward appearances negative views. That is one of the many books I have been reading while I am writing the paper for my senior seminar. I have to turn in the final paper by tomorrow morning, so I will not be able to argue this with you till finals are done. When finals are over however,

BY THE HEAVENS! SOMEONE WROTE A BOOK SAYING THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT I'M SAYING! MY POSITION MUST BE WRONG THEN!!

Seriously though, christianity served as a hindrance to stereotyping? What nonsense. No christian ever death with slavery, imperialism, etc etc... No wait, it was Christian Europe who subjugated the inferior primitives around the world, driven by power-hungry christian zeal...

I'm not sure it's a coincidence that christian Europe got Hitler, while hindu/buddhist/muslim India got Gandhi.

OH WAIT, BREAKING NEWS!

Turns out someone wrote a book saying Communism is superior: Marx, Engels(1848): Manifest der Kommunistischen Partei. So..... Since they wrote them in a book, their words are now truth.

Sorry, capitalists, looks like you're beaten

I will be able to show you ample evidence of the overwhelmingly positive effect of Christianity on the world, that will be able to, I believe, convince even one as determined to believe otherwise as you.

I have no desire to discuss the importance of religion with religous people. It's a debate where the odds of any common ground at all is zero.

Just like I seriously doubt that you'd agree that Communism has been a positive force, I won't agree that Christianity has been a positive force.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...OH WAIT, BREAKING NEWS!

Turns out someone wrote a book saying Communism is superior: Marx, Engels(1848): Manifest der Kommunistischen Partei. So..... Since they wrote them in a book, their words are now truth.

Sorry, capitalists, looks like you're beaten

Oh rats. 234 years shot to ****. If only Smith had published AFTER M&E....

<<heads off to thrift store to look for Mao jacket>>

[Banquo's Ghost]

Seriously though, christianity served as a hindrance to stereotyping? What nonsense. No christian ever death with slavery, imperialism, etc etc... No wait, it was Christian Europe who subjugated the inferior primitives around the world, driven by power-hungry christian zeal...

Whilst I am not a subscriber to the idea that Christianity was, on balance, a force for overall good, your assertion here above is significantly flawed.

Slavery existed long before Christianity and subjugation of less developed peoples is arguably a defining characteristic of Mankind regardless of spiritual persuasion. In fact, the modern concept of abolishing slavery through law is rooted in Christian thought refined through the Enlightenment. There's a case for arguing that outlawing slavery is one of the few universal goods to emerge from Christian tradition.

I'm not sure it's a coincidence that christian Europe got Hitler, while hindu/buddhist/muslim India got Gandhi.

And the above is even sillier. One might just as well argue that Europe also got St Francis of Assisi whilst the Indian sub-continent is hardly a garden of pacifist tranquility. Ever heard of thuggee, suttee and so on? Moreover, who shot Gandhi?

You do your argument a disservice by making it so simplistic.

[rory_20_uk]

Religion is independent for how good or how bad a given culture is.

[HoreTore]

Whilst I am not a subscriber to the idea that Christianity was, on balance, a force for overall good, your assertion here above is significantly flawed.

Slavery existed long before Christianity and subjugation of less developed peoples is arguably a defining characteristic of Mankind regardless of spiritual persuasion.

I completely agree. I was responding to a "look what horrors the Romans did"-argument, by showing that christians have done the same....

There's a case for arguing that outlawing slavery is one of the few universal goods to emerge from Christian tradition.

....but I strongly disagree with this, as I cannot see how slavery would've outlived atheist liberalism, for example. Also, slavery isn't a feature of the far east cultures, is it?

[Beskar]

I completely agree. I was responding to a "look what horrors the Romans did"-argument, by showing that Christians have done the same...

Because the Romans became 'Christian' after Constantine, and they integrated their pagan customs into the faith and invented new ones. As Gibbons noted, there were the 'Christian Ladies' (prostitutes) exposing themselves infront of the pagan family who were very sexually conserve and them being disgusted.

[rory_20_uk]

....but I strongly disagree with this, as I cannot see how slavery would've outlived atheist liberalism, for example. Also, slavery isn't a feature of the far east cultures, is it?

Hindu's have the Caste system which in essence achieves the same thing
China historically treated the pesants as slaves without the name.