This really has to stop

[Fragony]

36 coptic christians killed in Egypt, leftist people know it's respect, it's pretty normal by now. Lefist people know hatebeards are the new jews even if the old ones cannot be found where culture is enriched, ignorance is blitz.

[The Stranger]

the point is? stop killin coptic christians because they are coptic? or because they are christians? or because killing is always wrong? or should leftist people stop being leftist people? or should we stop the ignorance?

[rory_20_uk]

Egypt was Christian until the Muslims conquered it. Might is or at least was right.

What they do in their own ghastly country is their own problem. Our concern is what happens over here.

[Fisherking]

Oh, yes that must be right.

Then again why is everyone inflamed by American laws and practices. Not a European problem, right?

I thought that human rights were everyone’s concern, no?

Is the lack of interest because it is far away, or because the victims were Christians, or because the perpetrators were Muslims?

There also seems to be a lack of interest on the part of the Egyptian government to do anything about these sorts of things. Perhaps not as bad as Pakistan, where the rumor of lessening the blasphemy laws results in strikes and riots but nothings says it can’t escalate.

So much for a community of nations.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sad. The Christian communities in the Middle East are the oldest in the world. They have endured for two thousand years. We may see them all destroyed, forever, in our lifetime.

There is an etnic cleansing going on in the Middle East. Harassment, religious pressure, emigration and demographic developments have sharply reduced the numbers of non-Islamic populations throughout the Middle East. Many are on the brink of extinction.

Tragically, non-Muslims have been very influential in Arabian nationalist movements the oast century. Their project of secular states, of an Arabian revival, seems to have largely failed. A sad irony. Rivalled in irony perhaps only by Iraq, in which Christians enjoyed a reasonable status ten years ago, but which is now etnically cleansed of non-Muslims.

[rory_20_uk]

What, exactly, would you propose?

A note of condemnation?
Free money / aid?
Troops / police?

"Something must be done" is right up there with "think of the children!" in terms of utility.

[Fisherking]

No, we should deny that there are any human rights abuses occurring in any Islamic countries and ignore the whole thing.

If you don’t see a problem then there is no problem, right?

[rory_20_uk]

So... you think a stern letter is the way forward. Great plan! That will really help matters by doing nothing, but annoying the locals.

Or is making you feel somehow morally superior and end in itself?

[Fragony]

Egypt was Christian until the Muslims conquered it. Might is or at least was right.

What they do in their own ghastly country is their own problem. Our concern is what happens over here.

Rory I would never have you as a doctor, you are capable of telling me I'm going to have slow and painful death while solving a seduko

[rory_20_uk]

Rory I would never have you as a doctor, you are capable of telling me I'm going to have slow and painful death while solving a seduko

To be fair, I'd get the nurse to tell you. I'd be more interested to know if you were going to be cremated as I get some decent money for that.

[Fisherking]

Clearly religious intolerance is the underlying issue.

To me, religion just seems an excuse for disagreement and bloodshed.

At least in the media it is being portrayed either as a misunderstood religion of peace or a threat to world security.

What the truth is, I don’t know. But clearly something needs to be done regarding increasing militant acts against non-believers in their religion.

There isn’t much that can be more abhorrent than religious violence. There are those who feel justified in most any act, no matter how heinous.

There is no reasoning with them. Those who preach peace are usually the first victims.

Increased tolerance on the part of western countries is seen as weakness, meanwhile countries with Islamic majorities are unwilling or unable to deal with it.

What do we do?

I wish I knew!

Maybe I could get some decent money out of that.

[Hax]

Sad. The Christian communities in the Middle East are the oldest in the world. They have endured for two thousand years. We may see them all destroyed, forever, in our lifetime.

There is an etnic cleansing going on in the Middle East. Harassment, religious pressure, emigration and demographic developments have sharply reduced the numbers of non-Islamic populations throughout the Middle East. Many are on the brink of extinction.

Tragically, non-Muslims have been very influential in Arabian nationalist movements the oast century. Their project of secular states, of an Arabian revival, seems to have largely failed. A sad irony. Rivalled in irony perhaps only by Iraq, in which Christians enjoyed a reasonable status ten years ago, but which is now etnically cleansed of non-Muslims.

So it's not really "ethnic" cleansing, is it? It's religious cleansing. Sunnite Arabs killing Shi'ite Berbers, is that ethnic cleansing?In any case, don't be too fast in dismissing the situation as "largely failed". The politics of Nasser (which I guess you're aiming at) were largely impopular and did fail in the end, but it doesn't mean that the battle between the secularists and the wahhabists is now over. It's continuing, as it has been since thebeginning of the 20th century. And it's going on in Egypt as we speak. I don't think it's a very good idea to alienate secular Muslims (who may or may not regard themselves as secularist) by making sweeping statements about the diversity of the Islamic world, because you know what I'd like to see?

From Morocco to Afghanistan, I'd like to see western-style democracies with a clear seperation of church (mosque?) and state, where parliament is made up from Sunnites, Shi'ites, Kharijis, Copts, Druze, Zoroastrians, Jews and atheists too. I think there are some elements in Sunnite political theory that suggest some kind of seperation of church and state, and I think that the best we could do is to help the Muslim world fight their own demons, because that's basically what's going on. It's their battle, and the very worst action to take is to unite secularist and islamist Muslims against a common enemy. And I think we well know who that enemy would be.

[Yoyoma1910]

If Ice-T had been Egyptian, do you think his song with Body Count would have been Coptic Killer, instead of Cop Killer?

[HoreTore]

Peope getting killed in a dictatorship. Who would've thought?

[Fragony]

Peope getting killed in a dictatorship. Who would've thought?

Who thould they should, it isn't just Egypt it's the whole Islamic world up to Indonesia. It's religious terror, and it's new.

[Yoyoma1910]

Who thould they should, it isn't just Egypt it's the whole Islamic world up to Indonesia. It's religious terror, and it's new.

While a tragedy, it's not really new. I mean what do you want, the Pope to call another Crusade? Those didn't help the first time.

[Fragony]

While a tragedy, it's not really new. I mean what do you want, the Pope to call another Crusade? Those didn't help the first time.

Acknowedging it and putting pressure would be a good start, these acts are completely ignored by gutmensch media and EU governments, too busy crying over the Palestinians

[Yoyoma1910]

Acknowedging it and putting pressure would be a good start, these acts are completely ignored by gutmensch media and EU governments, too busy crying over the Palestinians

CNN coverage

NPR coverage

BBC Coverage

France 24 coverage

It was the top story on France 24's website. The other news sites had links from their front pages. It's being covered, and politicians are making statements. That's what those two groups do: Make coverage and make speeches.

[Motep]

CNN coverage

NPR coverage

BBC Coverage

France 24 coverage

It was the top story on France 24's website. The other news sites had links from their front pages. It's being covered, and politicians are making statements. That's what those two groups do: Make coverage and make speeches.

Coverage? It is covered. Action? I think not

[Yoyoma1910]

Hosni Mubarak, whatever may be said of him ill or good, has been working to create an image of an Egypt that is stable and prosperous. I seriously doubt his government will do nothing about this.

[Fragony]

CNN coverage

NPR coverage

BBC Coverage

France 24 coverage

It was the top story on France 24's website. The other news sites had links from their front pages. It's being covered, and politicians are making statements. That's what those two groups do: Make coverage and make speeches.

Incidents are covered, not the structional nature of them reoccuring. Certainly not in the way other issues are highlighted. It really is new, while second rate citizens they were not unwelcome.

[Yoyoma1910]

Incidents are covered, not the structional nature of them reoccuring. Certainly not in the way other issues are highlighted. It really is new, while second rate citizens they were not unwelcome.

I don't understand how it can be new if it's reoccuring.


I mean in April of 2009 the government was killing off all the copt's pigs because of the fear of an epidemic.



And look, here's an article from 10 years ago:

World Ancient church struggles in Muslim Egypt

March 30, 2000

An excerpt from this CNN World article:

Tensions between Muslims and Christians erupted into violence in early January in the southern Egyptian town of Kosheh, leaving 23 people mostly Christians dead. While most Egyptians, both Muslim and Christian, condemned the killings, the incident raised concern around the country.

[The Stranger]

Clearly religious intolerance is the underlying issue.

To me, religion just seems an excuse for disagreement and bloodshed.

... it is not Religious Intolerance... it is just Intolerance in general that is always the excuse and usually the reason for disagreement and bloodshed.

let's face it, father attacking the 57 year old dude that dates his daughter is a clear case of intolerance
the skinhead killing the ethopian for his i-pod is a clear case where atleast intolerance is used as an excuse for violence
the kenyans kicking out the white farmers is intolerance
sudan, egypt, afghanistan, iraq, israel, intolerance intolerance intolerance intolerance
spanish inquisition = intolerance

the list continues.

[Fragony]

I don't understand how it can be new if it's reoccuring.


I mean in April of 2009 the government was killing off all the copt's pigs because of the fear of an epidemic.



And look, here's an article from 10 years ago:

World Ancient church struggles in Muslim Egypt

March 30, 2000

An excerpt from this CNN World article:

Not talking new when talking in 10 years, new as in 80 years or so, just a tiny part of history. Fact remains that things have changed, these communities are really old, they were never hunted down in such a way. Isn't really that much to ask to treat non-muslims as we treat muslims here. Because we treat them as equals we can demand that from them as well.

About the pigs, that wasn't pretty, guess they really don't like pigs

[Fisherking]

... it is not Religious Intolerance... it is just Intolerance in general that is always the excuse and usually the reason for disagreement and bloodshed.

let's face it, father attacking the 57 year old dude that dates his daughter is a clear case of intolerance
the skinhead killing the ethopian for his i-pod is a clear case where atleast intolerance is used as an excuse for violence
the kenyans kicking out the white farmers is intolerance
sudan, egypt, afghanistan, iraq, israel, intolerance intolerance intolerance intolerance
spanish inquisition = intolerance

the list continues.

Your examples are wide of the mark.


When it is simple bigotry there are easier ways of dealing with the problems.

Once religion enters the equation logic and reason are sidelined because it becomes a matter of faith and belief. Think of it as a force multiplier.

They are pure and their god demands and rewards their acts against the evil unbelievers.

It is no longer a matter of individual beliefs but of a unified block up in arms and that will hear no argument to the contrary.

Fragony is wrong that it is new. For some years now Coptics have been kidnapped and either disappear or forced to convert.

So far the Egyptian government and police agencies have done little or nothing about it.

It is not just an Egyptian problem either. Look what happens to other faiths in other Islamic countries. Even in Turkey the pressure is mounting.

So far as I am aware the Pakistani Christian woman is still condemned to death for insulting Mohamed.

Her crime:
She pointed out that in her faith Jesus arose from the dead after three day but when Mohamed died he stayed dead.

This was the insult to Mohamed that brought the death penalty.

Evidently nonbelievers are not permitted to discuss religion without being subject to death but it is excepted that they can be beaten or otherwise coerced and forced into excepting Islam.

Because of this case it was thought that the blasphemy law might be relaxed but that brought huge protests and the threat of more violence...and you think it is simple intolerance?

The changes need to come from within Islam but so long as voices of reason are shouted down or those more moderate are afraid to speak out, to include governments, then it is not going to happen.

Secular government would help but most of these countries are afraid of such a move. That would at least afford all citizens equal protection under the law, but may do little to stem the violence.

[The Stranger]

Your examples are wide of the mark.


When it is simple bigotry there are easier ways of dealing with the problems.

Once religion enters the equation logic and reason are sidelined because it becomes a matter of faith and belief. Think of it as a force multiplier.

They are pure and their god demands and rewards their acts against the evil unbelievers.

It is no longer a matter of individual beliefs but of a unified block up in arms and that will hear no argument to the contrary.

its not off the mark. but you are right that this is what happens, but it happens because everyone is making that difference between intolerance and religious intolerance, even those who oppose to it... we shouldnt. we should treat it all the same way and simply put a stop to this as we wouldve have done if it was racial intolerance or whatever kind.

and then there is always the question how intolerant of intolerance can and must one be XD

let me not sideline this discussion. carry on.

[Fragony]

As I said, new isn't just a few years, 80 of them or so

[Fisherking]

As I said, new isn't just a few years, 80 of them or so

The first crusade was launched over similar issues. Forced conversion, murder of Christians, desiccation of shrines, and so on. While this was more the case of one regime perpetrating these acts of cruelty, rather than an entire faith, it did lead to a holey war. So it is a bit more than 80 years old. Lets hope we don’t find ourselves in another holey war...even though several have already declared it so.

[HoreTore]

Who thould they should, it isn't just Egypt it's the whole Islamic world up to Indonesia. It's religious terror, and it's new.

It's "people getting whacked in dictatorships".

It's as old as the sun.

Egypt is a dictatorship. A majority spending time killing off minorities will have less time to rebel against the dictators rule, thus a dictator will allow it. This is anything but new, it happens from time to time in most dictatorships. What do you think "dictatorship" means? "happy happy fun time"?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Not talking new when talking in 10 years, new as in 80 years or so, just a tiny part of history. Fact remains that things have changed, these communities are really old, they were never hunted down in such a way.

That's my boy.


Here's a quick linky. Already nearly a decade old, and the probems have only intensified since then.

Arabic-speaking Christians have been one of the main casualties of the destabilizing events of the twentieth century, and especially of the Western-created system of modern Arab states. This religious community found itself deeply immersed in a series of global changes that it could not influence, let alone shape.
We shall identify the major Christian groups in the Arab world, touch on their plight, and propose an agenda for their full integration into their own countries.


[...]





Egypt. Bonds of brotherhood and a strong sense of ethnic homogeneity and national identity brought Muslims and Copts together at the inception of modern Egyptian nationalism in the middle of the nineteenth century. However, under British occupation, these bonds slowly eroded. In 1911, for example, the organizers of a Coptic conference demanded equality with their Muslim compatriots (such as the recognition of Sunday as a holiday, government spending on Coptic schools, and including Coptic deputies in the national parliament). Unfortunately, these basic Coptic demands fell on deaf Muslim ears. While participation in national politics and preoccupation with getting rid of the British occupying power overshadowed religious differences and inequality, the rise of Islamism in Egypt and the writings of prominent Islamist thinkers who spoke negatively about Christianity (such as Sayyid Qutb) antagonized the Copts, who saw in this the roots of political vegetation and second class citizenship.


The arrival of Anwar as-Sadat to the presidency following the death of Gamal Abdel Nasser in 1970 coincided with the ordination of the dynamic and charismatic Pope Shenouda III as the 117th successor to St. Mark a year later. The Islamist policies of Anwar as-Sadat antagonized the Copts and exacerbated religious tensions that continue to the present. In Egypt, a low intensity assault against Copts has been advancing for the past thirty years. Islamists equipped with medieval religious zeal (such as jihad) and coming from marginalized and poverty-stricken societal strata, have been involved in frequent bloody attacks against their Christian compatriots. The most recent major attack occurred in January 2000 in the village of Al-Kosheh in southern Egypt, in which twenty Copts lost their lives.
http://www.meforum.org/4/arab-christians-as-symbol