Romans In Brazil?

[Lvcretivs]

Please keep the discussion polite, everyone.

I sincerely apologize for any inconvenience caused and readily admit that my last post was probably a little too polemical and aggressive - even tired as I was I really could have chosen a more fact-bound and unemotional argumentative approach...

By the way: several of the pictures in this thread were hotlinked. This means we're stealing bandwidth of the hosting website. Please use a dedicated image-host like Imageshack or Photobucket rather than hotlinking. I am not sure if Wikimedia Commons allows hotlinking. Could somebody enlighten me?

Wikimedia Commons allows hotlinking, but regarding other image sources I completely agree with you.

[Finn MacCumhail]

About Vavilov, my bad, it was Petr Zhukovsky, don’t know why I confused them.
Zhukovsky wrote a monograph “Cultivated plants and their relatives” 2nd edition 1964 about this issue. He says that Cassela was right.

This information about Zhukovsky taken from book Guliaev V. I. “Pre-Columbian voyage to America: Myths and Reality” chapter 4.

Internet version of the book. You can use google translate. (http://mesoamerica.narod.ru/precolumb_sail4.html)

(there is no English version about him in Wiki, but you can use Google translate)
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%96%...B2%D0%B8%D1%87

The hypothetical routes, actually were used by Columbus during his third trip. Anyway, both Columbus and ancient used wind and currents, that existed in both time frames, and as far as we know, by 3rd AD Romans had very good ships, that theoretically could survive the transoceanic journey.

About crew. Santa María also had 40 men crew, and they made transatlantic journey. But they managed to survive. And I don’t know if Romans used slaves on their ships, speaking about morale controle.

I was speaking about Scipio Aemilianus not Polybios. Guliaev argues that he reached modern Senegal.

If Europe has sagas, then indigenous peoples of America – tales about white beard people coming on the boat.

What coins etc?

In 1933 in Aztec tomb dated 13-15 centuries AD was found head of Roman sculpture dated 2 century AD. (Garcia Payon J. Una cabecita de barro, de extraña fisionomia // Boletin del Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia. — México, 1961. — № 6. — P. 1—2.)

Hellen statues, Roman terracotta Venus (Romans in the Americas // Katunob. — Vol. П. — № 2. — Carbondale, Illinois, 1961. — P. 12; Gaddis V. H. American Indian Myths and Mysteries. — Pennsylvania, 1977. — P. 102.)

Venezuela – roman coins dated 4 century AD. (Romans in the Americas // Katunob. — Vol. П. — № 2. — Carbondale, Illinois, 1961. — P. 12; Gaddis V. H. American Indian Myths and Mysteries. — Pennsylvania, 1977. — P. 102.)
If some stuff belongs to collections, why only Roman stuff lost? Where are missing Egyptian, Arabian artifacts? Why the collections consist only from one item?

[Lvcretivs]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

About Vavilov, my bad, it was Petr Zhukovsky, don’t know why I confused them.
Zhukovsky wrote a monograph “Cultivated plants and their relatives” 2nd edition 1964 about this issue. He says that Cassela was right.

This information about Zhukovsky taken from book Guliaev V. I. “Pre-Columbian voyage to America: Myths and Reality” chapter 4.

Let me quote directly from Jashemsky,W.F; Meyer F.G. (ed.): The Natural History of Pompeii, University of Cambridge Press 2002 [review] the most recent comprehensive - and conveniently partially digitized - publication on the subject:

"A [...] study of the fruits pictured in the wall paintings by Professor Domenico Casella, of the Istituto di Coltivazioni Arboree of the University of Naples, was the next work on plant material of the area. He believed that he could identify many modern fruit varieties in these paintings. His study "La frutta nelle pitture pompeiane" was published in Pompeiana in 1950 [...] In two subsequent illustrated articles he defended his identifications, which rightfully have been challenged by other botanists, of the pineapple (Ananas comosa (L.) Merril), mango (Mangifera indica L.) and the custard-apple (Anona squamosa), all tropical plants unknown in Europa in antiquity.The fruit identified as pineapple is the cone of the umbrella pine. The fruit he called custard-apple and mango cannot be identified."

[Jashemsky,W.F; Meyer F.G. (ed.): The Natural History of Pompeii, University of Cambridge Press 2002, 81]

Please show a little more common sense and critical reflection of the matter at hand - don't you see that your argumentation almost completely relies on 'conspiracy' authors of questionable academic standing, which constantly cross-reference exclusively themselves and like-minded?

Neither does stereotypical repetition of 'author x says hypothesis y is right' ad infinitum prove the veracity of y - it only shows a questionably skewed understanding of scientific debate - nor does 'academical authority' automatically equal 'truth' - blind faith in unquestioned 'authorities' is extremely dangerous and misleading.

The hypothetical routes, actually were used by Columbus during his third trip. Anyway, both Columbus and ancient used wind and currents, that existed in both time frames, and as far as we know, by 3rd AD Romans had very good ships, that theoretically could survive the transoceanic journey.

About crew. Santa María also had 40 men crew, and they made transatlantic journey. But they managed to survive. And I don’t know if Romans used slaves on their ships, speaking about morale controle.

I was speaking about Scipio Aemilianus not Polybios. Guliaev argues that he reached modern Senegal.

Please read Pliny,'Naturalis historia' 5,9,10, the only literary source which attests this rather short 'coastal exploration trip':

"Scipione Aemiliano res in Africa gerente Polybius annalium conditor, ab eo accepta classe scrutandi illius orbis gratia circumvectus, prodidit a monte eo ad occasum versus saltus plenos feris, quas generat Africa; ad flumen Anatim CCCCLXXXXVI, ab eo Lixum CCV. [...]"

"When Scipio Aemilianus was in command in Africa, Polybius the historian went round in a squadron furnished by the general for the purpose of exploring that continent, and tells us that from Mt. Atlas to the west as far as the river Anatis for 496 miles [734 km], 205 miles [303 km] distant from Lixus, there are woods full of those wild beasts that Africa produces. [...]"

Pliny,'Naturalis historia' 5,9,10

Following Edward Lipiński (Lipiński, E.: Itineraria Phoenicia (Studia Phoenicia 18), Leuven 2004, 465f.) the 'flumen Anatis' should be most probably identified with the Oum ar-Rbia, the longest river of modern-day Morocco, which clearly disproves Guliaev's hypothesis of an exploration journey into modern Senegal.

What coins etc?

In 1933 in Aztec tomb dated 13-15 centuries AD was found head of Roman sculpture dated 2 century AD. (Garcia Payon J. Una cabecita de barro, de extraña fisionomia // Boletin del Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia. — México, 1961. — № 6. — P. 1—2.)

Hellen statues, Roman terracotta Venus (Romans in the Americas // Katunob. — Vol. П. — № 2. — Carbondale, Illinois, 1961. — P. 12; Gaddis V. H. American Indian Myths and Mysteries. — Pennsylvania, 1977. — P. 102.)

Venezuela – roman coins dated 4 century AD. (Romans in the Americas // Katunob. — Vol. П. — № 2. — Carbondale, Illinois, 1961. — P. 12; Gaddis V. H. American Indian Myths and Mysteries. — Pennsylvania, 1977. — P. 102.)
If some stuff belongs to collections, why only Roman stuff lost? Where are missing Egyptian, Arabian artifacts? Why the collections consist only from one item?