Nobel Peace Prize 1935/6 - Carl von Ossietzky

[PanzerJaeger]

Thank you for proving the hypocrisy of the German Supreme Court.

Can you elaborate on that hypocrisy? You are aware that the two acted against completely different governments, correct?

It is of course a travesty: a German journalist, who exposed plans for German re-armament, who received a Nobel Peace Prize for it, who was so much systematically tortured in a concentration camp over it that he died because of it - and he is still considered a traitor to the German court.

His treatment under the Nazis does not change his actions against the previous democratic government. That was the basis of the ruling.

[Hax]

His torture does not change his actions against the previous democratic government. That was the basis of the ruling.

That depends on your own perception fo what is more valuable. Global stability or national stability?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Interesting. It would seem that most, if not all, of what this fellow blew the whistle about were programs conducted under the auspices of the Weimar regime and/or the military operating without official authorization.

Talk about having no chance at all....

Even if this fellow hadn't been a left-wing politician (almost all of whom were silenced by the Nazi regime after 1933) he would probably have been sent off simply for providing any evidence that Hitler had not personally rebuilt the Luftwaffe from scratch (can't have anyone stealing credit from the great leader, now, can we?).

Still, he lasted longer than some of Adolf's ardent supporters like Rohm.

I think US mafia families were as good or better about loyalty among their peers than were the Nazis.


Still, the Weimar regime was the duly elected government and he blew the whistle on secret policy decisions they'd made. Any in-power government would label that treason. After Hitler's deal with the Army for power, there was no way they were going to show mercy to a leftist who'd ticked off the Army Junkers.

As whistle-blowers of all stripes must determine for themselves, "Is revealing the truth of enough value to you that you will sacrifice your freedom or your life to reveal it?" The wages of such efforts are well known, however noble the intent.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Still, the Weimar regime was the duly elected government and he blew the whistle on secret policy decisions they'd made. Any in-power government would label that treason. After Hitler's deal with the Army for power, there was no way they were going to show mercy to a leftist who'd ticked off the Army Junkers.

As whistle-blowers of all stripes must determine for themselves, "Is revealing the truth of enough value to you that you will sacrifice your freedom or your life to reveal it?" The wages of such efforts are well known, however noble the intent.

What this does show, is the extent of the continuation between (an undercurrent of) Weimar and Nazi Germany.

It is common that after a revolution, a true coup, much is reversed. What was black before, is white now,. Who was a traitor, is now a hero. After 1945, everything was different. The Traitor to the Nazi was the hero to both West and East Germany. After 1989, the traitor to East Germany was the hero to unified Germany. Not so in 1933. The traitor to Weimar was still the traitor to Nazi Germany. A chilling thought, one which serves as a reminder to Weimar's dark undercurrent.

[PanzerJaeger]

It is common that after a revolution, a true coup, much is reversed. What was black before, is white now,. Who was a traitor, is now a hero. After 1945, everything was different. The Traitor to the Nazi was the hero to both West and East Germany. After 1989, the traitor to East Germany was the hero to unified Germany. Not so in 1933. The traitor to Weimar was still the traitor to Nazi Germany. A chilling thought, one which serves as a reminder to Weimar's dark undercurrent.

Allow me to point out, one more time, that you are confusing two separate incidents.

Ossietzky published Weimar state secrets and was tried and convicted for it. After being released, he came out as a supporter of Comintern puppet Ernst Thälmann and was an outspoken critic of the Communist's biggest opponent, the Nazi Party. After Hitler came to power, Ossietzky, like many other communists and their sympathizers, was arrested and sent to a concentration camp. The Nazi's did not arrest him as a carry-over from his troubles with the Republic.

Ossietzky's supporters tried to get his treason conviction overturned using guilt and the hero status he has gained in some circles due to his treatment under the Nazi regime. It did not work.

While Ossietzky's case brings up some pet peeves of yours, it also touches on one of mine. That being the post-war deification of practically anyone who opposed the Nazis, including the beloved Stauffenberg, regardless of their motivations. Germany is filled with memorials to men who opposed the Nazis out of self interest, because they had no choice, and most annoyingly, because they supported a different totalitarian ideology.

Then again, in my own city I can stroll through my choice of Confederate Park, Jefferson Davis Park, and even Nathan Bedford Forrest Park, where the good general and KKK Grand Master lies in rest - and I wouldn't have it any other way. I guess you cannot put much stock in memorials.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ossietzky published Weimar state secrets and was tried and convicted for it. After being released, he came out as a supporter of Comintern puppet Ernst Thälmann and was an outspoken critic of the Communist's biggest opponent, the Nazi Party. After Hitler came to power, Ossietzky, like many other communists and their sympathizers, was arrested and sent to a concentration camp. The Nazi's did not arrest him as a carry-over from his troubles with the Republic.

Naturally, I do not share your opinion that Ozzietzky was a tool for the communists because he oppossed the 'greatest opponnents' of communism, the Nazis.

By this reasoning, all communism is off the hook because it was the greatest opponent of Nazism.

That is the whole trap, that sad mistake of the 1930s. 'This opposses totalitarianism version X, so this good'.

The real struggle of the 1930s was not between nazism and communism, it was between the totalitarian ideologies and liberal democracy. Internal power struggles within the totalitarian world - fascism vs nazism, nazism vs communism, Leninist-Trostkyism vs Stalinism - are of secondary interest.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Husar, I must say I am surprised to see that you voted that Ossietzky is a traitor, who deserved death.


Brave journalists like him exposed to the German people what was happening in the 1920s. He and like-minded reporters warned about German secret re-armament, about the plots and the agitation and the schemes to overthrow German democracy and re-start a war. They warned Germany for the coming catastrophe. Ozzietzky was also one of the first to understand in 1933 what was happening.

Who is the traitor? The national-conservative powers who secretly (secret for the German people) build a clone army in the Soviet Union, or the reporter who exposed that to the German people?
It is owing to the work of brave reporters like him that the German people were informed, that a majority of Germans understood the attack against German democracy, that the German people have the historical dignity that their democracy was not voted out of existence by themselves, but had to be overthrown in a coup.


Are you not a democrat? Do you support the concentration camps? Do you seriously support that this should've been the fate of this man: The International Red Cross representative allowed to visit him in November 1935 found "a trembling, deadly pale something, a creature that appeared to be without feeling, one eye swollen, teeth knocked out, dragging a broken, badly healed leg . . . a human being who had reached the uttermost limits of what could be borne."

[PanzerJaeger]

Naturally, I do not share your opinion that Ozzietzky was a tool for the communists because he oppossed the 'greatest opponnents' of communism, the Nazis.

I do not think Ozzietzky was a communist sympathizer because he opposed Nazism, but because he actively supported the Communist Party and Thälmann in particular. In fact, that alone makes the man a traitor in my eyes. Any educated German that understood the KPD and its allegiances, as Ozzietzky most certainly did, and made the decision to vote for Thälmann supported a far more obvious subversion of national interests - to the will of the Soviet Union - than Hitler represented at the time. (Not to mention the election was not a choice between Hitler and Thälmann exclusively. Most moderate, republican oriented voters chose Hindenburg.)

The intention was to violently overthrow the peace. To create the possibility of a violent take-over of the German state. The plot was kept secret to the German people, of whom never a majority voted in favour of hard right extremism.

No, it wasn't. Versailles left Germany defenseless in the heart of Europe. French attempts to incite rebellion in the Rhineland and the looting of German businesses in the Ruhr by French troops highlighted that weakness.

Weimar defense policy was simply that - defense. The country spent far less on defense in terms of GDP than the Western Allies during the period. As Husar pointed out, the German military at the end of the Republic was miniscule in comparison.

Finally, you'll note that neither Hitler nor the 'conservative conspiracy' you often refer to used the military to overthrow the republic. In fact, that same military was used to stop Hitler's attempt at doing just that.

To me, the German (Ossietzky) who warned in 1933 what was coming is not a traitor. Those who silenced him are.
The German who exposed Auschwitz is not a traitor. The German who refused to murder civilians is not a traitor. The German who would not fight for Hitler is not a traitor.

Ossietzky was not convicted of treason for being anti-Nazi. Emotional appeals to the Holocaust do not change that.

He was a traitor to the Nazi-controlled late Weimar Republic.

The Nazi-controlled late Weimar Republic? He betrayed the Republic before the Nazis had any control of the German government. The defense policy he published was that of a the moderate, republican Grand Coalition of the SPD, Center Party, and other smaller liberal parties.

[Louis VI the Fat]

His treatment under the Nazis does not change his actions against the previous democratic government. That was the basis of the ruling.

Indeed. Which of course touches on a pet peeve of mine: has history too much overlooked the agitation within the Weimar Republic? In this case, it were not the Nazis, it was democratic Weimar which incarcerated this man, the (national-conservative) politicians and judges and military who closely co-operated in censoring the whistleblower.

Germany's legal system acknowledges Weimar as democratic, and will uphold its legal decisions. Unlike Germany's two dictatorial regimes, of which especially the legality of the legal order of the Nazi period is mostly unrecognised.
Ah well, add in an autocratic Kaiser and not much democratic history remains. A country can not undo all of its history.

That depends on your own perception fo what is more valuable. Global stability or national stability?

Excellent.

An overwhelming amount of later Germans would wish their history had listened to Ossietzky, instead of to the national-conservatives. Who is the traitor of Germany? The man who warns for the coming catastrophe, the whistleblower, or the people striving towards the catastrophe?

Who is a traitor to the Chinese people? Who is the traitor to our societies?

two international pariahs

Quod non. Weimar Germany was a member of the League of nations. Enjoyed one of the highest standards of living in Europe. Received massive foreign loans. Was fully embedded in the western legal, economic, scientific and cultural order.
The Soviet Union was none of that. Its only friends were foreign communists, and German nationalists. Germany has always been the patron saint of the Soviet Union, from installing it, to allying with it in the 1920s, to overrunning Eastern Europe together with it in 1939. Only Hitler was a brief interlude, his virulent anti-communism nearly undid all the hard work of German diplomacy of the fifteen years before. Silly man, even after he had renewed the alliance with the Soviet Union, he couldn't resist the temptation to challenge Stalin, his superior by far.

Why were German nationalists and the Soviet Union such good friends? Because only together could they ever hope to stand a whiff of a chance against the rock-solid alliance of the three western powers, who would of course never be so stupid as to undo their succesful alliance and let themselves be picked off one by one. .

[Husar]

Germany's two dictatorial regimes, of which especially the legality of the legal order of the Nazi period is mostly unrecognised.
Ah well, add in an autocratic Kaiser and not much democratic history remains.

Two? You mean the Kaiser was a dictator? By the people he was seen as a benevolent monarch, his internal policies are often seen as better than Bismarck's.
Sure, I'm no fan of his, but that's mostly because I blame him for our involvement in the war and a failed foreign policy, nothing to do with him being an evil dictator(except that he booted Bismarck ).

An overwhelming amount of later Germans would wish their history had listened to Ossietzky, instead of to the national-conservatives.

An overwhelming amount of Germans also wished that history had let them keep their Kaiser, and I think that is especially a high amount of those who still lived under the Kaiser. The Kaiser was so sad about being away from his beloved people that he died of misery not too long after the war, one could speculate that things could have gone a much better path had he been left in power.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Kaiser Wilhelm II died in exile in the Netherlands in 1941 at the age of 82.

According to some, he had hoped for a return of the monarchy following the Nazi takeover in the early 30s. Hitler had no use for the man, so any such thoughts were wasted. He was not a fan of the Nazi policies towards Jews.

[Hax]

Kaiser Wilhelm II died in exile in the Netherlands in 1941 at the age of 82.

Yeah, I live not five kilometers from the house where he lived and died!

[Louis VI the Fat]

Two? You mean the Kaiser

No, the two 'German dictatorships' are Nazi Germany and the German Democratic Republic, East Germany.

The Kaiser was so sad about being away from his beloved people that he died of misery not too long after the war

Are you sure you are not mixing that up with a Disney fairy tale about some poor king who died of grief? The one where all the people cry when the king leaves and the evil stepmother is installed on the throne, until the squirrels and the frog prince set the kingdom free.


I must inform you that reports about your beloved Kaiser soon having died of grief because he missed his people are greatly exaggerated.
Your exiled Kaiser lived on for decades after the war, in good health, well into his eighties. Although I think we can safely assume he did grief over his lost empire and collection of pointy helmets.



Here's your beloved moustached one:

During his last year at Doorn, Wilhelm believed that Germany was the land of monarchy and therefore of Christ and that England was the land of Liberalism and therefore of Satan and the Anti-Christ. He argued that the English ruling classes were "Freemasons thoroughly infected by Juda". Wilhelm asserted that the "British people must be liberated from Antichrist Juda. We must drive Juda out of England just as he has been chased out of the Continent."[42]

He believed the Freemasons and Jews had caused the two world wars, aiming at a world Jewish empire with British and American gold, but that "Juda's plan has been smashed to pieces and they themselves swept out of the European Continent!"
Continental Europe was now, Wilhelm wrote, "consolidating and closing itself off from British influences after the elimination of the British and the Jews!" The end result would be a "U.S. of Europe!"[42] In a letter to his sister Princess Margaret in 1940, Wilhelm wrote: "The hand of God is creating a new world & working miracles ... We are becoming the U.S. of Europe under German leadership, a united European Continent." He added: "The Jews [are] being thrust out of their nefarious positions in all countries, whom they have driven to hostility for centuries."