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Thread: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

  1. #1
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    ...kidneys!

    AFP - Kosovo Prime Minister Hashim Thaci was one of the key players in the traffic of organs of Serb prisoners after the 1998-99 conflict there, according to allegations in a draft Council of Europe report.
    The report, by Swiss Council of Europe deputy Dick Marty, accuses Thaci and other senior commanders of the ethnic Albanian guerrilla group the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) of having set up the traffic.
    The draft report was published on the Council of Europe website on Tuesday and will be considered by its legal affairs committee on Thursday.



    In fact, the whole of Kosovo was seized by mobsters, a mafia clan, who've ran the place ever since, and who won the elections last week:



    Thaci, he said, was "the boss" of the Drenica Group, a "small but inestimably powerful group of KLA personalities" who took control of organised crime in the region from at least 1998.
    The diplomatic and political support the United States and other western powers gave him during the talks following the Kosovo conflict "bestowed upon Thaci, not least in his own mind, a sense of being 'untouchable'," he added
    .

    "The signs of collusion between the criminal class and high political and institutional office bearers are too numerous and too serious to be ignored," wrote Marty.



    Equally as alarming, the state of Albania is full of accomplices:

    Thaci also operated with the help not just of the Albanian government "but also from Albania's secret services, and from the formidable Albanian mafia," wrote Marty.
    The report's sources also implicated Thaci and his lieutenants in "assassinations, detentions, beatings and interrogations" in Kosovo and Albania between 1998 and 2000, he wrote.

    Thaci's ruling Democratic Party of Kosovo (PDK), which won the most votes in Sunday's general elections, denounced Marty's allegations as "fabrications" in a statement Tuesday.


    http://www.france24.com/en/20101215-...cking-report-1
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 12-15-2010 at 18:33.
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  2. #2
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Same story different century
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    But... I thought that the Serbs were the Bad ones and by extension the others were all nigh on Angels. This must be true, else TV lied to me!

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    But... I thought that the Serbs were the Bad ones and by extension the others were all nigh on Angels. This must be true, else TV lied to me!

    That's what I've been telling silly Brenus for years...


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  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    OMG! Louis, we agree!

    ?????????????????


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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    I still think we should have propped up Yugoslavia.
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    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Time to allow Serbia back in?
    BLARGH!

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    On a similar story: Wikileaks blew the whistle on the corruption of the ex-Croatian prime minister who has fled the country on its release, and Interpol has now issued a warrant for his arrest.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    It doesn't get any more cynical than this, disgusting

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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    The story was known since Carla del Ponte went public with it (it makes one wonder why she had to wait for her term to end to go with it).

    What's new here is that supposedly Hasim Thaci was directly involved and he's gonna be Kosovo's next PM.

    Here's a tenner that says nothing's gonna change and Thaci is still gonna be regarded as freedom fighter.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    it was known since forever that kosovan separatist guerillas were committing atrocities on serb communities precisely to bring down a reprisal against the poor downtrodden kosovans, which would get massive coverage and public outrage whereas the initiating incident would not.

    bunch of bandits who have been rewarded with a state, should never have happened.
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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    OMG! Louis, we agree!

    ?????????????????
    Tell me about it. :P
    So Louis, what exactly is a liberal like you doing with some common sense? You traitor to your people...
    Seriously though, I am glad that this is getting some news coverage in the US, because majority of the American public (and nearly all of the professors at my Uni) think that Serbs are a bunch of evil, race purist, genocidal, new age Nazis (yeah, the Nazi comparison is made all the time), and that Muslim Albanians, Bosnians, and 'Kosovars' were all innocent victims of Serbian war crimes.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    bunch of bandits who have been rewarded with a state, should never have happened.
    Indeed. This is the problem with "Liberation of Nation States", more chances for it to go wrong.
    Last edited by Beskar; 12-16-2010 at 20:09.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    As Louis kindly reminds I am not an anti-Serb.
    Having working in the (major) three sides involved in the disintegration of Yugoslavia I had stories from all the sides and it was not nice.
    The Serbs were certainly not angels and none of their fighters I met even try to deny the crimes committed on their names by some.
    I took most often than I should for my own future in the UN or others International Bodies their defence. Not because I agree with their actions or political view, but because they were under constant attack, lies were told and they never succeeded to get out of the fine trap they were so keen to be engulf in.
    Having lost the battle on the media hey finally lost the battle on the field.

    However, the crime allegedly committed by Thaci and Co is just the tree that covers the forest. Sure, it is good that finally this criminal is shown for what he is.

    But, I would have preferred the outcry of indignation a little bit earlier. E.g. when the Roma, Ashkenalies, “bad” Albanians, Croats, Montenegrins and Serbs, under the view of the K-For and the UN Vice Roy Kouchner were expelled without mercy and losing time.

    This would have given some credibility at the claim made by Blair and Co of a new age of democracy.
    But better later than never.
    Now, will this change something? No.
    EU and US are now stuck with what they fabricated. Instead to negotiate ad to go for the hardest solution they favoured the nationalism in all camps. Tudjman, Milosevic, Izetbegovic and all their affiliates and apprentices won at the end.
    Now, we have to deal with this.
    Not that the Serbian answer to the Albanian problem neither was the most wise and appropriate but nor was the Croatian answer towards the Serbian problem. The Croats got away with it, the Serbs didn’t.
    Tempest (Oluja) operation that saw the entire Serbian population from the Croatian territory (except Vukovar) emptied of its population was even not considered as a problem. The fact that the Croats attacked a UN protected Area (same status than Srebrenica), bombed by planes (against Deny Flight Operation) on Refugees and burned 90% of the Serbian houses and killed a little bit old people not fast enough to run didn’t move at all the “democrats” and the “liberals” nor the “humanitarian” western souls.

    Sorry, I wanted to be cynical. I can’t.
    The disaster of Yugoslavia should be a lesson of the future. The Nationalist won. We could have help in a democratisation process… We could have preserved a Democratic Yugoslavia. More borders, more destruction of lives, what price these countries did pay, and will?
    Last edited by Brenus; 12-16-2010 at 21:25. Reason: sp
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    As Louis kindly reminds I am not an anti-Serb.
    Having working in the (major) three sides involved in the disintegration of Yugoslavia I had stories from all the sides and it was not nice.
    The Serbs were certainly not angels and none of their fighters I met even try to deny the crimes committed on their names by some.
    I took most often than I should for my own future in the UN or others International Bodies their defence. Not because I agree with their actions or political view, but because they were under constant attack, lies were told and they never succeeded to get out of the fine trap they were so keen to be engulf in.
    Having lost the battle on the media hey finally lost the battle on the field.

    However, the crime allegedly committed by Thaci and Co is just the tree that covers the forest. Sure, it is good that finally this criminal is shown for what he is.

    But, I would have preferred the outcry of indignation a little bit earlier. E.g. when the Roma, Ashkenalies, “bad” Albanians, Croats, Montenegrins and Serbs, under the view of the K-For and the UN Vice Roy Kouchner were expelled without mercy and losing time.

    This would have given some credibility at the claim made by Blair and Co of a new age of democracy.
    But better later than never.
    Now, will this change something? No.
    EU and US are now stuck with what they fabricated. Instead to negotiate ad to go for the hardest solution they favoured the nationalism in all camps. Tudjman, Milosevic, Izetbegovic and all their affiliates and apprentices won at the end.
    Now, we have to deal with this.
    Not that the Serbian answer to the Albanian problem neither was the most wise and appropriate but nor was the Croatian answer towards the Serbian problem. The Croats got away with it, the Serbs didn’t.
    Tempest (Oluja) operation that saw the entire Serbian population from the Croatian territory (except Vukovar) emptied of its population was even not considered as a problem. The fact that the Croats attacked a UN protected Area (same status than Srebrenica), bombed by planes (against Deny Flight Operation) on Refugees and burned 90% of the Serbian houses and killed a little bit old people not fast enough to run didn’t move at all the “democrats” and the “liberals” nor the “humanitarian” western souls.

    Sorry, I wanted to be cynical. I can’t.
    The disaster of Yugoslavia should be a lesson of the future. The Nationalist won. We could have help in a democratisation process… We could have preserved a Democratic Yugoslavia. More borders, more destruction of lives, what price these countries did pay, and will?



    The one defense is, that the West always had to respond after the damage had been done, and that the West's options were subsequently limited to picking the least of several evils.

    In Kosovo's case, nobody has ever been under the impression that Kosovo was anything but a mobster run hellhole. Islamo expansionist, Balkan nationalist, mafia controlled, Albano-Kosovan clan system. With the exception of the first, the role of Islamo expasionism, which was underappreciated a decade ago, all have been understood all along.

    What else should've been done in 1999? Serbia, Serb paramilitatries, and Kosovar irregulars were all getting at each other's throat. The best one could've done was to disentangle the fighting parties. Keep them apart. At the end of that dreadful decade of violence, there was only political will to end the fighting, to separate the warring factions, not for any perfect solution.

    One can wonder of in the long run, it wouldn't have been best to turn a blind eye ('we hadn't known it' ) and let the Serbians provide a final solution to the problem. But that would've been an act of breathless cynicism. It was done by Croatia, which with tacit support from the west ended its part of the Yugoslav wars with a war of etnic cleansing. But unlike Serbia, Croatia, Tudjman, could be reasoned with.
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  16. #16
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post

    But unlike Serbia, Croatia, Tudjman, could be reasoned with.
    It's definitely easier to reason with Tudjman when he was allowed to commit ethnic cleansing on a massive scale with more than just verbal support from NATO, then with Milosevic who was offered Rambouillet Agreement against which 1914 Austro-Hungarian ultimatum looks like a fine starting point for a constructive discussion, but that;s not the topic here.

    It appears I have been wrong with my previous comment as press in many European countries have been active in reporting the issue, even openly criticizing the decision to recognize Kosovo. Some political parties were even going as far as to demand withdrawal of recognition (Austria).

    It is highly doubtful that any country will withdraw recognition but this will definitely put a hold to new recognitions and just maybe we could see the clique in power in Kosovo brought to justice.

    Some more juicy stuff is that. under order from Hague Tribunal, some 400 DNA samples from victims was destroyed in Germany in 2002, according to the testimony of Jose Pablo Baraybar, former head of the UNMIK Forensics and Missing Persons Office..

    (Full text of Marty report, if someone's interested)

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    One can wonder of in the long run, it wouldn't have been best to turn a blind eye ('we hadn't known it' ) and let the Serbians provide a final solution to the problem. But that would've been an act of breathless cynicism. It was done by Croatia, which with tacit support from the west ended its part of the Yugoslav wars with a war of etnic cleansing. But unlike Serbia, Croatia, Tudjman, could be reasoned with.
    It is an act of cynicism we apply to the rest of the world, so why not here? Is it OK when "darkies" are slitting each others throats with a variety of weaponry, but we don't let white people do that to each other?

    And seeing as we're not prepared to make tough decisions to sort anything else out we muddle along with another half-arsed compromise that doesn't really work.

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    It is an act of cynicism we apply to the rest of the world, so why not here? Is it OK when "darkies" are slitting each others throats with a variety of weaponry, but we don't let white people do that to each other?

    And seeing as we're not prepared to make tough decisions to sort anything else out we muddle along with another half-arsed compromise that doesn't really work.
    Indeed, it is why I am tending not to like compromises. An example of compromising gone horribly wrong, Obama's Healthcare plan.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    sounds like an argument for adversarial and decisive politics to me................
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Another that comes to mind would be the EU.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Incidents in the Balkans, when will we ever learn

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk View Post
    Tell me about it. :P
    So Louis, what exactly is a liberal like you doing with some common sense? You traitor to your people...
    Seriously though, I am glad that this is getting some news coverage in the US, because majority of the American public (and nearly all of the professors at my Uni) think that Serbs are a bunch of evil, race purist, genocidal, new age Nazis (yeah, the Nazi comparison is made all the time), and that Muslim Albanians, Bosnians, and 'Kosovars' were all innocent victims of Serbian war crimes.
    Sadly true, to the extent that most of them know ANYTHING about the Balkans in the first place. Most know a thin smattering about the glories of ancient Greece, a vague thing or two about Transylvania, that some Czech women are apparently willing to do virtually anything while being filmed, and that the Serbs are responsible for ethnic cleansing. Of course, some of them would have trouble finding New Jersey on a map of the World, much less Kosovo....and yes, I include some of the residents of New Jersey in that statement.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Sadly true, to the extent that most of them know ANYTHING about the Balkans in the first place. Most know a thin smattering about the glories of ancient Greece, a vague thing or two about Transylvania, that some Czech women are apparently willing to do virtually anything while being filmed, and that the Serbs are responsible for ethnic cleansing. Of course, some of them would have trouble finding New Jersey on a map of the World, much less Kosovo....and yes, I include some of the residents of New Jersey in that statement.
    That's bad. Even I know where New Jersey is and I never even been to America.
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  24. #24
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Pft, we all know New Jersey is a Channel Island.


    The bolloxness of Kosovo does not excuse Serbia. Serbia is still the main instigator of the several wars, and Serbian (para)militaries were the worst bunch of murdering, raping scum to have disgraced Europe since WWII.
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  25. #25
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Pft, we all know New Jersey is a Channel Island.


    The bolloxness of Kosovo does not excuse Serbia. Serbia is still the main instigator of the several wars, and Serbian (para)militaries were the worst bunch of murdering, raping scum to have disgraced Europe since WWII.
    Again, it's not the topic of the thread so I won't comment but even if it's true does that mean that for one band of murdering, raping scum the rewards are sanctions, bombs, destruction, poverty, threats, suspension of human rights, partitioning and for other band the rewards are sovereign state where they can commit atrocities freely, high political positions, dinners with highest officials worldwide, money, prestige and the likes?

    And New Jersey is south of Leicester, of course.

  26. #26
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Again, it's not the topic of the thread so I won't comment but even if it's true does that mean that for one band of murdering, raping scum the rewards are sanctions, bombs, destruction, poverty, threats, suspension of human rights, partitioning and for other band the rewards are sovereign state where they can commit atrocities freely, high political positions, dinners with highest officials worldwide, money, prestige and the likes?
    Quite logically, both Serbia and Kosovo were the two parts of the same partition and now exist as a sovereign state.
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  27. #27
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Quite logically, both Serbia and Kosovo were the two parts of the same partition and now exist as a sovereign state.
    can't argue with that logic.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    The bolloxness of Kosovo does not excuse Serbia. Serbia is still the main instigator of the several wars, and Serbian (para)militaries were the worst bunch of murdering, raping scum to have disgraced Europe since WWII.”

    And me who was thinking Louis started to see the light arising at the horizon…

    Serbia was not the one that initiated the disintegration of Yugoslavia. Well fact known. Serbia was not the one smuggling weapons from Hungary, nor Serbia shot down a helicopter full of bread. Serbia didn’t initiate the Barracks War, and de facto the Serbian Youth massively deserted when call to the Army to be sent and to crush the Slovenian then Croatian secession.
    If they wouldn’t, the aftermath would have been slightly different and Milosevic celebrated as the Yugoslav Lincoln…

    We can discuss about Milosevic intention when wanting to preserve the Yugoslav concept, but you can’t blame the Serbian Nationalism on whom to blame for the start of these wars, knowing that the last Yugoslav President, the Croat Misic, openly declared that he will be the last of the Yugoslav President. And he kept his word.

    About the worst, and again not denying what the Arkan Tigers or the White Eagle of Seselj did in Bijelina or Zvornik, but the Green Eagle of Islam, Mudjhadin and the I don’t Remember their names for the Croats (apologies to them) have no reason to be ashamed.
    I spoke with both, sometime directly (Croats and Serbs), sometimes with one of their translator (Mudjahidin) who was my translator after the war.
    We can speak of the Serbs put on the Bridge in Gorazde, or the Nursery in Vukovar (or the Hospital where the Serbs who entered in it did ended in the Danube), and then you will speak of Ovarca Farm and Srebrenica. Then I will speak of Oluje (and her little sister), Ilidja and Ozren Mountain, the end of the Fikhret Abdic’s supporters at the hands of the Muslim Brigade etc…
    I have heard the survivors, from both sides. I saw the faces when a woman became a widow, when a mother identify a son by the clothes the body is wearing and when nobody dared to tell hem the mutilations were done on a alive person…
    I heard my Croatian Translator telling me a joy when it was a neighbour/friend who got injured during a Serbian shelling, and not her…
    I heard and saw the young man, brother of one of my driver, getting drunk every day to forget the face he had after being hit by a sniper he cursed every day for having missed him.

    Unfortunately, the Serb paramilitaries (as far as I know the only time when the Serbian Army as a entity was deployed was when Bombed by NATO) were not the worst. They all were the same. The Serbs did more victims because they were the strongest at the start, but after, the newspapers and media just avoid to speak about civilian victims as the were Serbs so deserved what happened to them.
    A journalist admitted it in Arret Sur Image. He didn’t care.
    Lies were told. We had the story of 80.000 rapes, systematic, when the Barbaric Serbs were keeping their prisoners until it was too late to abort. Well, where are they, these 80.000 babies? I spoke with some of the journalist who spread the story…
    Ok, one.
    They just estimate from one village and extrapolate on the entire region…
    Rapes, yes, oui, da.
    I had heated debate with some colleagues who came with these allegations. They were working at the same time than me, on the other side of the front lines.
    She was anti-Serbs and pro Bosnian and Croats, without one inch of hesitation or doubt.
    I asked her? Where are the kids? The streets of Sarajevo and Tuzla should be full of them. You will find some. I did. But not in THAT proportion.

    One man got convicted in the International Court of Justice Against the Serbs and Nobody Else Please. What he done is a crime against humanity but he never did more than what happened in some brothel in Western Europe where Pimps should be prosecuted with the same charges he was: Slavery.

    The propaganda machine was at her high. The Serbs were shelling the Muslim Graveyards when they were burying their dead. Yes Sir, oui monsieur, da Gospodin. Well, the fact it was with crosses in back ground never really hit the Western Conscience. To be completely frank, it didn’t for me, as we associate graveyards with crosses. It was my translator who pointed out to me.
    The barbaric Serbs were even fighting during Xmas… When I tried to make a note that aswell fight during the 14th of July as both dates had no importance for Serbian and Bosniak fighter in not being French and Orthodox Christian and Muslim the 25th of December and the 14th of July are normal days…
    To see THE LOOK I was granted after this…

    I can go one like for pages… Sarjevo, Merkale, Vukovar, etc… Only if it could change something…

    A note: Nowadya 2 processes are running in the Former Yugoslavia territories.
    Bosnia where nor reconciliation is actually possible as the “victims” refused any guilt and the “perpetuators” refusing stubbornly to acknowledge they are the only ones to blame. And we’ve got a blocked situation and the perpetuation of the early post war resentment.
    And we have Croatia and Serbia, little by little, acknowledging their crimes and apologising, one day the Serbian President putting Flowers on the Croatian Tombs, the day after the Croatian President putting Flowers on the Serbian Graves.
    And they built (or re-built) their trade links, abolishing visa, investing in each others factories as they realise they speak the same language, eat the same food, drink rakia or rakija… And to take a train it doesn’t matter if it is voz or vlak, they undertand each other.

    If these war were not useless and for only the pride of Milosevic, Tudjman and Itzetbegovic, I don’t know what is a stupid war.

    Apologies for the length…
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  29. #29
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    Thanks for the read, as close as I'll ever be

  30. #30
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: And Kosovo's Main Export is...

    So, to conclude, in the last c. 2,000 years nothing good has come out of the Balkans.

    Be honest - who is surprised?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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