[Council of Villains] A State of Corruption [Concluded]

[Askthepizzaguy]

Previous suspicion?
All I see is people bickering and giving little information to convince me.
I will stay with this vote until I read some information that I, not someone else, deems as valid.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053242400

This was the reason for my previous suspicion.

The conclusion is my own, the information (the timing of his unvote) is valid: He unvoted to duck the overdrive attack.

So there are only a few things I am worried about here. Is Jarema our hidden benefactor investigator? Doubtful, or Beskar would have told me to hold off on accusing him. Is Jarema our hidden protector? Possible, but the odds are still long.

Most anyone else isn't important enough to worry about losing, because they can be replaced by others with similar learned powers. But who is worried about survival enough to dodge a 1:14 chance of death? That would be the mafia.

I don't know Jarema as well as I would like, but that unvote still makes little sense to me.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I would have unvoted. WE'RE SURVIVALISTS.

[thefluffyone93]

Well....phooey then.
Unvote; Vote: Abstain
At least for now, although I expect I will change it quite soon.

EDIT: Btw, whats the tally now?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I would have unvoted. WE'RE SURVIVALISTS.

I know you would, Sasaki. It wouldn't have been unusual coming from you. You wait until the last minute to break ties on yourself as a basic townie in a basic game where your death is otherwise meaningless.

Not everyone shares your mafia philosophy. Jarema doesn't feel like the same sort of player you are. I don't detect the same ruthlessness from him; I feel his behavior is motivated by a fear of loss that is unrelated to losing out on being a survivalist townie player.

The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

[Cecil XIX]

I would have unvoted. WE'RE SURVIVALISTS.

Even if we weren't it's not like it was close vote. Besides, you'd think just being able to vote would be enough reason to want to remain alive. ATPG, don't you have any better hunches to follow?

[Frozen In Ice]

Time to collect and post a vote count, no time to summarize reasons. Frozen is probably scum.

Glenn was the counterwagon that sprung up to save tincow--I hope this doesn't need explaining. Included this gem from woad&fangs:



Who could also be scum.

Aha, frozens "already stated reasons" are bad like expected:

Two things: I'm pretty sure that the Tincow wagon "sprang up" after Glenn, not the other way around. Second, you may think my reasons are bad, but I think they are quite reasonable myself. Different strokes for different folks I guess. All I am getting from this comment is that we have differing thoughts. If you could tell me why it's bad reasoning then that would be helpful to both me, you, and the town as a hole. I'm not one to refuse good advice that will improve my skill, and added discussion only helps catch mafia.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Even if we weren't it's not like it was close vote. Besides, you'd think just being able to vote would be enough reason to want to remain alive. ATPG, don't you have any better hunches to follow?

Why are you relying on me? I'm willing to put out the effort to state reasons why I think people should die, and put pressure on people.

Others can also do this. The only reason why I end up leading people in games is because others do not bother. In fact, some of the few times someone else stepped up to the plate, I happily sat my butt on the sidelines and allowed them to lead without my interference. It's a nice change for me.

By all means, come up with your own suspects if you don't think mine are guilty.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I love being dead sometimes.

unvote, VOTE:RENATA

[johnhughthom]

In any case, you're totally completely wrong. I'm not Samus, and I haven't killed anybody.

Vote: Winston Hughes.

That's the sort of thing mafia say when they are trying to be clever. Probably.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Also, I believe Glenn was banned during the time period of last night. He couldn't have sent orders in.

The wagon on Glenn makes no sense to me.

[Diamondeye]

Even if we weren't it's not like it was close vote. Besides, you'd think just being able to vote would be enough reason to want to remain alive. ATPG, don't you have any better hunches to follow?

That's not exactly the point; It's your duty to face that overdrive if you don't have anything special to defend. Whoever it hits, he cannot be less important than a vanilla townie. You can't just back off and let someone else do it, because if everyone did so, you guessed it, we'd never lynch the mafia.

Every vanilla townie voting against TinCow reduced the chance that he might hit something else in there, and I doubt the mafia were voting against him (they have a reason to stay out). What is wrong with this argument (which I also presented yesterday, I believe), since no-one seems to be following it?

[landlubber]

I haven't heard much from vote: Khazaar this game. I would post a more solid case, but I forgot how to look at who posted.

[Diamondeye]

I haven't heard much from vote: Khazaar this game. I would post a more solid case, but I forgot how to look at who posted.

Click on the number (around 760 atm) after "replies:" instead of the thread title in the Gameroom lobby..?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Vote: Winston Hughes.

That's the sort of thing mafia say when they are trying to be clever. Probably.

unvote, vote:John

This is the kind of thing mafia say when they are trying to fake belief. And then hem and haw after typing it out and add "probably" because in their hearts they know it isn't genuine.

[Beskar]

Since Glenn is banned, I will change vote...

unvote; vote: Thefluffyone

Only mafia use abstain votes.

[Yaropolk]

So glenn and atpg are likely innocent? We better get another candidate up there quickly or it may be too late for one of them.

Unvote; vote: frozeninice

[ULC]

So glenn and atpg are likely innocent? We better get another candidate up there quickly or it may be too late for one of them.

Unvote; vote: frozeninice

Sound more scummy please.

[thefluffyone93]

Since Glenn is banned, I will change vote...

unvote; vote: Thefluffyone

Only mafia use abstain votes.

Hey hey hey!
I was just letting the argument continue to see which side makes more sense!
And with Glenn banned, I guess that leaves frozen in ice and jarema

or anyone else, but hey, according to atpg, I should follow previous suspicions.....

[Skooma Addict]

Vote: Insanious

[Reenk Roink]

That's not exactly the point; It's your duty to face that overdrive if you don't have anything special to defend. Whoever it hits, he cannot be less important than a vanilla townie. You can't just back off and let someone else do it, because if everyone did so, you guessed it, we'd never lynch the mafia.

No, it's actually more likely that his duty is like what every townie role so far has been, and that is to survive first and foremost. It is very reasonable for a townie to back off TinCow due to his threat, especially since his swag was really turned up that round.

And of course if EVERYONE backed off, the Mafia would never be lynched, but EVERYONE didn't back off, and it certainly didn't look like everyone was going to back off that lynch round. What Cecil did was very smart and absolutely reasonable as a townie.

Every vanilla townie voting against TinCow reduced the chance that he might hit something else in there, and I doubt the mafia were voting against him (they have a reason to stay out). What is wrong with this argument (which I also presented yesterday, I believe), since no-one seems to be following it?

This is a decent simplifying assumption, though obviously I think that there's a very high chance that people from the other Mafia family went ahead and voted for him.

[Ironside]

Also, I believe Glenn was banned during the time period of last night. He couldn't have sent orders in.

The wagon on Glenn makes no sense to me.

I know that you're aware of the hive mind situation with strongly allied teams (like mafia), making it perfectly possible for mafia partners to cover for a short absense of a player. You've allowed me to do that in both games I've played with you as the host.

Might've been a too quick conclusion from your side, but still.
Vote:ATPG

[Romanic]

Vote: Beefy

To avoid being night killed. This incredibly scummy tactic will discourage mafias to kill me, thus buying me more time to do stuff during night phase.
Only problem is that this might get me lynched. So if I am under pressure I am either going to vote for Glenn or join vote for someone who has decent case against them.

vote: Beefy

I can't believe this.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

eeeh, romanic needs to die to.

lynch list:
romanic
johnH
renata
pizza
woad

[Choxorn]

Also, I believe Glenn was banned during the time period of last night. He couldn't have sent orders in.

The wagon on Glenn makes no sense to me.

It's possible he could send in orders through QT, or his fellow mafia partners could send orders for him.

[Romanic]

I think this tally is right.

4 ATPG (Csargo, Nictel, pevergreen, Ironside)
4 Glenn (classical_hero, Cecil XIX, Jarema, Frozen in Ice)
3 Beefy (Beefy, Renata, Romanic)
2 Jarema (ByzantineKnight, ATPG)
2 Frozen in Ice (Diamondeye, Yaropolk)
1 landlubber (Glenn)
1 Csargo (Khazaar)
1 pevergreen (God Emperor)
1 Winston Hughes (johnhughthom)
1 Khazaar (landlubber)
1 Thefluffyone93 (Beskar)
1 Insanious (Skooma Addict)

2 abstain (Death is yonder, Thefluffyone93)

[Insanious]

Vote: Glenn

[Winston Hughes]

Why ATPG of all people?

Out of everything I've read today, this is the post that tweaks my scumdar the most.

Sasaki went after Seon yesterday, only to hop on the Nictel bandwagon when it became clear that it was the better bet for an alternative push. The behaviour which caught Sasaki's attention was pretty standard for Seon: he's usually flippant, never trustworthy, and only very rarely helpful to the town. He is, however, an experienced villain, whose typical behaviour allows him to avoid giving much - if anything - away. And while, as a townie, he's often utterly cavalier about his safety, when he's playing scum he is quite capable of adjusting that behaviour to improve his survival odds.

In this context, Seon's sole post today strikes me as an attempt to duck under the radar, and avoid a repeat of the previous accusation. He's changed up his behaviour, switching from irreverent to stealthy, and that is enough for me to...

vote: Seon.

That's the sort of thing mafia say when they are trying to be clever. Probably.

I volunteered information that has the potential to be falsified or verified at a later date. If it was a lie, then it'd be a stupid and unnecessary one. And, if and when it is shown to be true, even then it won't prove me to be town.

[Greyblades]

unvote; vote: Thefluffyone

Only mafia use abstain votes.

Dude its only the second turn anyone has cause to abstain.
Ooh I just realised I have an excuse to do this!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Cecil XIX]

Why are you relying on me? I'm willing to put out the effort to state reasons why I think people should die, and put pressure on people.

Others can also do this. The only reason why I end up leading people in games is because others do not bother. In fact, some of the few times someone else stepped up to the plate, I happily sat my butt on the sidelines and allowed them to lead without my interference. It's a nice change for me.

By all means, come up with your own suspects if you don't think mine are guilty.

I'm not asking you to name names for me, I'm asking for a yes or no: Can't you think of better suspects to go after then Jarema and Nictel?

[classical_hero]

Also, I believe Glenn was banned during the time period of last night. He couldn't have sent orders in.

The wagon on Glenn makes no sense to me.

How do you know that Chaotix could have gotten the kill order from a QT? (I see that Choxorn spotted this out also) Under such circumstances it might be possible. But assuming you are right I will unvote

Right then it does seem the trail has gone cold. Hopefully I should be able to make a vote tonight after my colonoscopy, but just in case, my vote right now is vote:abstain just in case I don't fell well enough to get a proper vote in, but hopefully that does not happen.