Preview: The Lugiones

[Brennus]

Out of curiosity, what evidence is there for Brythonic languages being spoken in Denmark?

[cmacq]

Out of curiosity, what evidence is there for Brythonic languages being spoken in Denmark?

Normally, I would not address this issue yet. This is because it may or may not directly apply to one or more potential factions. However, as the answer relates to several factions that have already been previewed, I feel we might explore this subject to a limited extent. To address this subject we must ask several neutral questions and look at the nature of the evidence.

1) First off is there a tradition that Brythonic was used in Denmark in the pRIA? Of course lacking a written tradition that extends into the 2nd or 1st millennium BC this type of evidence would be found only in place names. There is the claim that P-Celt place names are totally absent throughout Denmark, yet on the most causal of inspections this claim appears spurious. For example we have the pre-Iutonish name for Danmark, the ‘Cimbres Peninsula.’ Next, there are the tribal names Teutones and Ambrones. The counter agrument here is that unless the Romans and Greek support a Germanic or an early Deutsch affiliation they were ignorant, biased, or just plain stupid. Then a number of contorted contrivances are typically produced to explain what the Classical author should have, would have, could have wrote, if only they were as far removed from the subject in question as are modern linguists. Although often overlooked the only problem with this counter agrement is that each of these tribal names appear in both Gaulish-Celt or Noric-Celt as deity and personal name elements. For example:

Tribal names - Celtic deities
a) Cimbres - Cimbri-anus
b) Teutones - Teut-ates
c) Ambrones - Ambi-sagrus
d) Atuatuci - NA

Tribal names - Peronal names
a) Cimbres - Camba-ules
b) Teutones - Teut/Tout-issicnos, Teut/Tout-issgnos, Teuto-matos, Teuto-malios, Teuto-bodunos, Teut/Tout-ios,
c) Ambrones - Ambio-rix, Ambi-catos
d) Atuatuci - Atectori

Tribal names - Tribal names
a) Cimbres - Gambrives - Sicambres

These are Gaulish and not Brythonic forms, yet I believe the examples above demonstrate a type of P-Celt and clearly not an early form of common Germanic. By the way while it is evident that at least three types of P-Celtic had historically manifested by 1200 BC, there is also a question how much the early form of Common Germanic had differentiated by 300 BC. Here the differentiation of early Common Germanic would be from a northern variant of P-Celt and a pre-Satem form of western Baltic.

One might find a cogent with the Cimbri in the Old Prussia

Prus/Brus meaning 'countrymen, brother.'
Kaimeni, Kaims, kaimas, kaimenë meaning 'herd' or 'flock.'
Kaimîns meaning 'neighbour woman.'
Kaimînsku meaning 'neighbour.'
kaimîns meaning 'neighbour man.'
kaims meaning 'village.'

Thus in Celtic its Cimbres and western Baltic Kaimbrus.

One might find a cogent with the Teutes in the Old Prussia

Tout meanig the 'tribe' or 'nation.'
Ains meaning 'of.'

Thus in Celtic its Tout/Teutes or Toutones and western Baltic Toutos or Toutains.

Returning to place names we have Himmerland which is of course a Germanification of Cimbron or 'land of the Cimbres.' Apparently the tribal god of the Cimbres was called Cimbrianus. We also have Thythæ which is 'Toutaeon/Teutaeon' or 'land of the Teutes.' Their national god was Teutates. Finally there is Imbræ which may be Ambron 'land of the Ambres.'

1) Lyngsmose - Bog/shallow lake of Lugos - a Cimbric fortified settlement.
2) Borremose - Bog/shallow lake of Boiro (cattle) - a Cimbric fortified settlement.
3) Gundestrup - settlement of the Gutus (priestly voice) - settlement near an important Cimbric ritual site.
4) Gislum - Geslon (1/1000 typical Gaulish fiefdom or holding) - traditional district in Himmerland.
5) Rinum - Rinon (Celt land sold) - traditional district in Himmerland.
6) Hornum - Cornnon (Celtic Carn- horn, possibly assoicated with the Cernonnos) - traditional district in Himmerland.
7) Hellyum - Halleon (Celtic Hall/Hell- salt, possibly Saltland) - traditional district in Himmerland.
8) Hornøg - Cornog (Celtic Carn- horn, og/oug cold or nude; bear-horn) - traditional district in Himmerland.
9) Lyungæ Nørræ - North Lugon (Celtic Lugus, Lugon - land of Lugus. Also Old Prussian Lauks. Both assoicated with deities and legal land ownership) - traditional district in Omungær.
10) Lyungæ Syndæ - South Lugon (Celtic Lugus, Lugon - land of Lugus. Also Old Prussian Lauks. Both assoicated with deities, legal land ownership, and field systems) - traditional district in Omungær.
11) Hallæ - Hallon (Celtic Hall/Hell- salt, possibly Saltland) - traditional district in Omungær.
12) Hallæ - Hallon (Celtic Hall/Hell- salt, possibly Saltland) - traditional district in Abosysæl.
13) Flæskium - Pleskeon (Old Prussian Pleske- breast-piece/plate, harness) - traditional district in Himmerland.
14) Horns - Cornnon (Celtic Carn- horn, possibly assoicated with the Cernonnos) - traditional district in Vændle. This district includes Skagen, thus I think Horns refers to Pliny's 'Cronium' or 'cape of the Cimbres.' [see K-gruppe]
15) Vændle Vindlon (Celtic meaning 'white land') Wandrains (Old Prussian Wandrai meaning One who Migrates.') - a traditional district. [see K-gruppe]
16) Vinæbiærg - Settlement of the Vindles (Celtic meaning 'white ones' or western Baltic 'wandrai.') - traditional district in Vændle. [see K-gruppe]
17) Burlun - Land of the Bures (Lugian tribe) - traditional district in Vændle. [see K-gruppe]
18) Kyærræ - Land of the kursis (Old Prussian term for a male member of the eastern Baltic Curon tribe) - traditional district in Vændle. [see K-gruppe]
19) Slætæ - Sladeton (Celtic 'land of the Slayer/Striker') - traditional district in Himmerland.
20) Vændlefolk - Vindle People (Celtic 'white') - traditional district in Harthe.
21) Ambrum - Ambron (Celtic land of the Ambres, from the tribal Ambrones) - traditional district in Utland.

There are without doubt more examples, however I and appearently no one else has actualy looked for them. I'm jut going to stop at 24.

There are several other things to address on this 1st question, but I just don't have time right now. While this doesn't prove anything, it does suggest that the Romans and Greeks (in texts) on the one hand and the Danes (in place names) on the other, were recording the same linguistic forms, and these were very similar to a type of P-Celtic or wetern Baltic. It also suggests that these place names were embeded in Celtic ritual and linguistic tradition. This agrument bypasses all of the counters such as the Romans and Greeks were using Celtic middlemen, or they were too ignorant, biased, or just plain stupid to undertand correctly.

OK returning, we have the place name Morimarusa used for the Baltic Sea. Morimarusa appears to be a form of P-Celt meaning 'Dead' or 'Slugish Sea.' Next we have the place name used for the far nothern tip of Juteland or Skagen. Pliny tells us it was known as Cronium. There is the Celtic word crund meaning round or curved, and we have the Old Prussian krantas meaning coast or bank (waterside).

Then there is the Ingaevones thing.

[Blxz]

Normally, I would not address this issue yet. This is because it may or may not directly apply to one or more potential factions.

I find this quite interesting. Perhaps there will be more factions revealed in this area of the map. At the very least it suggests that the EB team has considered more factions. Whether anyone else will make it in may still be being debated perhaps?

This part of the world is going to end up like anatolia soon. I distinctly remember someone having a screenshot of asia minor with 7 factions present onscreen at once. Fun times ahead.

Also, finally had a chance to read right through the preview at my own pace some 3 weeks after it was released. Truly interesting. Especially the way you have managed to bring together some of your sources to make a faction out of very little solid information. I also like your follow-up comments cmaq in this thread. You have really made this corner of the world more interesting to me. My thanks.

[cmacq]

Out of curiosity, what evidence is there for Brythonic languages being spoken in Denmark?

2) Is there any evidence that Brythonic was used in Denmark for personal names in the pRIA? The answer is that there are only three known personal names known from this period. These belonged to the kings of the Cimbri or Teutones and are:

a) Boiorix
b) Gaesorix
c) Lugius

All three of these were clearly Celtic and not Germanic names. The counter is that the Romans and Greeks were using Celtic middlemen, or they were too ignorant, biased, or just plain stupid to understand correctly. Again there is the opinion that the only time evidence provided by Classical authors is acceptable is when it supports a Germanic affiliation.

[cmacq]

Out of curiosity, what evidence is there for Brythonic languages being spoken in Denmark?

3) Is there any evidence how people from the Cimbres tribe pronounced their tribal name? Actually, yes there is. This consists of several burial monument found in the Main river area of modern Germany, built for Cimbri warriors who had served as officers in the Roman army. Here they are:

1)

MERCVRIO
CIMBRIO [†]
†]AN[†
I[†]C[†]ITV[†

Mercurio
Cimbrio [†]
[†]

2)

IN H D D
MERCVR CIMBRIANO
MANSVETINIVS SE[†
COH I SEQ RAURIC
SIGIL MERCUR POSUIT
APRONIAN ET BRADUA COS

In Honorem Domus Divinæ
Mercurio Cimbriano
Mansuetinius Se[†
Centurio Cohortis I Sequanorum et Rauricorum
Sigillum Mercuri Posuit (?)
Aproniano et Bradua Consulibus

3)

IN H D D
MERCVRIO
CIMBRIANO
FELIX
LEG PRÆPOSI
TUS N EXPL SEI
OPENS POS
DVOBVS ASPRIS
COS

In Honorem Domus Divinæ
Mercurio
Cimbriano
Felix (?)
Centurio Legionis Præposi-
tus Numeri Esploratorum Sei
Opensium Posuit
Duobus Aspris (?)
Consulibus

4)

In Honorem Domus Divinæ
Deo Mercurio
Cimbriano
Aedem
Cum Signo Tettius Perpetuius
Carus Votum Soluit Liben
Laetum Merito

It seems as if Cimbres warriors had no problems with the way the Romans wrote or pronounced their tribal name. There is much more, for example the local and regional culture, but this is as far as I'm going right now. For me, collectively the evidence is overwhelming. But apparently, not everyone agrees with me.

[Brennus]

3) Is there any evidence how people from the Cimbres tribe pronounced their tribal name? Actually, yes there is. This consists of several burial monument found in the Main river area of modern Germany, built for Cimbri warriors who had served as officers in the Roman army. Here they are:

1)

MERCVRIO
CIMBRIO [†]
†]AN[†
I[†]C[†]ITV[†

Mercurio
Cimbrio [†]
[†]

2)

IN H D D
MERCVR CIMBRIANO
MANSVETINIVS SE[†
COH I SEQ RAURIC
SIGIL MERCUR POSUIT
APRONIAN ET BRADUA COS

In Honorem Domus Divinæ
Mercurio Cimbriano
Mansuetinius Se[†
Centurio Cohortis I Sequanorum et Rauricorum
Sigillum Mercuri Posuit (?)
Aproniano et Bradua Consulibus

3)

IN H D D
MERCVRIO
CIMBRIANO
FELIX
LEG PRÆPOSI
TUS N EXPL SEI
OPENS POS
DVOBVS ASPRIS
COS

In Honorem Domus Divinæ
Mercurio
Cimbriano
Felix (?)
Centurio Legionis Præposi-
tus Numeri Esploratorum Sei
Opensium Posuit
Duobus Aspris (?)
Consulibus

4)

In Honorem Domus Divinæ
Deo Mercurio
Cimbriano
Aedem
Cum Signo Tettius Perpetuius
Carus Votum Soluit Liben
Laetum Merito

It seems as if Cimbres warriors had no problems with the way the Romans wrote or pronounced their tribal name. There is much more, for example the local and regional culture, but this is as far as I'm going right now. For me, collectively the evidence is overwhelming. But apparently, not everyone agrees with me.

Sorry to play devil's advocate here, by the way the linguistic evidence is quite convincing from what you have said, but does the material culture of Denmark during this time period support the notion of a Brythonic population? ie are artefacts of this period decorated in a La Tene style?

Veyr interesting thoughts cmacq, thanks.

[cmacq]

Sorry to play devil's advocate here, by the way the linguistic evidence is quite convincing from what you have said, but does the material culture of Denmark during this time period support the notion of a Brythonic population? ie are artefacts of this period decorated in a La Tene style?

Yes, but because Latene was the only show in town, this by itself means little. As far as the material culture mainland Denmark in the pRIA, is part of a well-documented complex that includes the Netherlands and northwest Germany. This region was indeed integrated into the lateen interaction sphere however due to the nature of the overall settlement system the oppidia were absent. Well, there may have been one oppidum. The thing is I don’t know much about the nature of the Belgae culture in Latene C and D, so I don’t know if it was also part of the same complex.

reposting for context

In 'Celtic culture: a historical encyclopedia, Volume 1,' edited by John T. Koch 2007, there is a good discussion of pre-Germanic North Sea Celtic as being a form of Brythonic.

[Mediolanicus]

And some more comments about the language map: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...16#post8783816

[Populus Romanus]

Wow, this is a really impressive preview! That is a lot of information you have dug up about this faction, which one would think would be hard to find.

[cmacq]

And some more comments about the language map: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...16#post8783816

Thanks for posting this. I would like to let everyone know that constructive criticism is welcomed and in fact is indeed encouraged. The reason is we have attempted to make the EB2 reconstructions current, inclusive, and somewhat cutting edge. If one thinks there are issues that have been overlooked or are incorrectly presented herein, please let us know. If a change or addition is warranted, after a process of consideration and evaluation, it may or may not be implemented.

Svensk Viking on TWCF
At 300 BC the early Saami speaking peoples were living in far northern Scandinavia and parts of Finland.
There have never been Saami speakers in modern day geatland.
The Saami in Oppland settled there much later,

Here I've used Sami only in a general sense. This is largely due to the scale and scope of the game, as well as the overall significance of the ethnos in question.

about the Sami in southern Norway see

Pallantides on TWCF
There also lived Saami people in areas like Oppland, Hedmark and Buskerud in south Norway.

Saami in Valdres 1000 years ago:
http://www.oppland.no/Fag-og-tjenest...tufter-funnet/

In Hol, Buskerud:
http://hegegjerde.wordpress.com/2010...amiske-tufter/


From Heimskringla:

25. One winter king Harald went to stay in Uppland and arranged a Yule-celebration for himself on the farm Tofte. On Christmas Eve, as the king sat at table, Svaasi came to the doorway. He sent a word to the king to come out to see him, but the king became annoyed over the message, and the same messenger brought the king’s anger back to Svaasi. But Svaasi asked undisturbed that they should bring the message once again, and said that he was the finn (sami), who the king had allowed to raise a lodge on the other side of the hill.
The king went outside and promised to visit him, and went over the hill to his lodge. Some of his men told him to go, while others advised him not to go.

At his arrival, Svaasi’s beautiful daughter, Snöfrid, stood up, and filled a bowl to the rim with mead, but the king grabbed it all: the bowl as well as her hands, and straight away he felt a heat burning like fire in his body, and straight away he wanted to sleep with her that very same night.
But Svaasi said that he would not give his blessing unless they became legally engaged. Then the king engaged Snöfrid and received her and loved her so madly that he did not care about his kingdom, nor how a king is supposed to behave.
They had four sons: Sigurd Rise, Halvdan Hálegg, Gudröd Ljome and Rognvald Rettilbeine.

Then Snöfrid died, but she did not change hue at all. She looked just as healthy as when she was alive. The king constantly watched over her, hoping that she would wake up eventually.
In this way three winters went by. The king mourned Snöfrid’s death, while the entire country worried about the king’s mental health. But finally Torleiv Spake arrived to heal him, and he did so by first addressing the king:
”It is no wonder, my king, that you mourn such a beautiful and noble woman, and that you honour her on down and silk, like she asked you to. But your noble gesture, and her honour, is diminished by letting her lie on the same bedding for too long, and it would be a good idea to move her and change her beddings.”
But as soon as they moved her from the bed, a disgusting smell spread from her body. They hastened to build a fire to burn her – but in the meantime her entire body turned blue, and worms, reptiles, frogs and amphibians and all sorts of nasty serpents came out of her.
In this manner she sank into ashes, but Harald rose again from his insanity and came to his senses. And he rejoiced with his men and they with him, and the kingdom flourished again.
Source: Snorri Sturlason's Heimskringla.

Thanks Pallantides


about the Sami in southern Sweden please see the Finnaithae as the Finn-Haiþoz or Heath Finns of the 4th and 5th century AD as those who inhabited historic Finnveden. As a side note the Finnaithae were not the Finni-mitissimi (peaceful-Finns of southern Norway) or the Screrefennae who were the Scride-finnas or Snowshoe Finns/Lapps of northern Scandinavia to be found just above Uppland. One might also suggest a sizable non-Germanic/proto-Norse population within the greater Uppland region due to the duelality of the Suehans/Sweans and the Suetidi/Sweþeans. Contrary to popular opinion, while clearly the Sweans and Sweþeans became the Swedes, they did not start out as Swedes nor did they start out as the same ethnos. Rather, I suggest the Sweans were once a Sami people while the Sweþeans were Indo-Europeans that became early Germanics who later along with the Sweans merged to became one of several elements that became the early Norse, called the Swedes.

Nonetheless in the final analysis, one must conclude that before the arrival of the first Atlantic Round-house Neolithics from the west and later the first Indo-Europeans from the southeast, all of northern Scandinavia (both Norway and Sweden) was once occupied by the Sami peoples.

As far as the proto-Slavs, in truth I really don’t think they differentiated from the eastern Balts by 300 BC. So having them on the map at all, is just me trying to delay some bloody grief, which I know full well, is on-the-way. The archaeology doesn’t support an early Slavic expression in the southern Ukraine. In fact it seems early common Slavic developed around B1 or B2, along a narrow zone on the fringe between the eastern Baltic, early Karelian, and western Scytho-Sarmatian populations. In other words, while Balto-protoSlavic is a total fiction, the use of eastern Balto-protoSlavic is clearly not.

I know there are gaps, but hope this info. is helpful.