Africa - Made Better or Worse by European Colonisation?

[Brandy Blue]

Strike has a point. However, it sometimes happens that good actions have unintended bad results and bad actions have unintended good results. I think most people would agree that exploitation is immoral. However, it is quite another question whether or not Africa benefitted in the long term.

Personally I think that the question is unanswerable for the following reasons.

1: Colonialism caused such profound changes that the consequences of those changes have not yet played out. It will be some time before people can look back and see the results of the changes. It is too soon to tell.

2: It is not really possible to separate out the results of colonialism from the results of actions taken by Africans after the colonial period, or from post colonial non-African influences. You can blame a war, for instance, on colonialism or on the African leaders or even out external post colonial pressures, or on all of the above.

3: Africa is vast and comprises many cultures, each with a different experience of the impact of colonialism. Does colonialism and its consequences look the same to a Cairene prostitute, a Botsawanan bishop, a South African miner, a Boer, a person whose life was saved by a hospital founded by missionaries and a Bushman? Probably not. Is it possible to give a simple blanket statement opinion that truly does justice to all these different stories?

4: So few people are qualified to deal with the question. Few outsiders do have the necessary African perspective to understand the subjective side of the impact of colonialism. But Africans, in my experience, take it as an article of faith that colonialism was bad and that it would be unpatriotic to think otherwise. So its catch 22. Few people who understand the inside story have enough objectivity to really grapple with the question.

All in all, its like asking if the world would be a better place if the Roman Empire had never happened. History does not tell you what would have happened under other circumstances.

[Furunculus]

Hmm. Was Africa made better by Euro colonisation? I suppose it depends on your definition of better

Or to put it another way; was Africa made worse by Euro colonisation?
When Frederick Courtenay Selous was mounting expeditions northwards from south africa he quickly bumped into the Matabele and Mashona, the latter of whom lived in abject terror of regular decimation and slavery by the former. The Mashona were more than happy to see the brutality of the Matabele curbed. To put this in context, when I lived in Malawi in the 80's mothers still told their children to behave otherwise the Matabele would come for them........... one hundred years after their power had been broken by the British!

this is not a broad brush defence of colonisation in general, for the downsides were horrendous in some cases, but Belgium and Portugal were an order of magnitude worse in the treatment of their subject populations, and its not as is everything was sweetness and light before the British arrived.

the worst thing we did was create boundaries regardless of ethnic/tribal powerbases, sometimes as a method of divide and conquer. the result upon independence was a populace that recognised no community cohesion, and thus we are in significant ways responsible for the strife since independence.

[Strike For The South]

[QUOTE=Brandy Blue;2053246895]
Personally I think that the question is unanswerable for the following reasons.

1: Colonialism caused such profound changes that the consequences of those changes have not yet played out. It will be some time before people can look back and see the results of the changes. It is too soon to tell.

I can point to many genoicdes and civil wars that happend soley because of arbatriary border lines, those are most certainly results no?

2: It is not really possible to separate out the results of colonialism from the results of actions taken by Africans after the colonial period, or from post colonial non-African influences. You can blame a war, for instance, on colonialism or on the African leaders or even out external post colonial pressures, or on all of the above.

The actions of the post colinial period are a direct result of the Euros leaving offering no assistance in new countries that mushed whole different cultures together, the last 50 years of Africa is cleaning up that mess

3: Africa is vast and comprises many cultures, each with a different experience of the impact of colonialism. Does colonialism and its consequences look the same to a Cairene prostitute, a Botsawanan bishop, a South African miner, a Boer, a person whose life was saved by a hospital founded by missionaries and a Bushman? Probably not. Is it possible to give a simple blanket statement opinion that truly does justice to all these different stories?

Saving one tree does not change the fact you burned and raped 80

4: So few people are qualified to deal with the question. Few outsiders do have the necessary African perspective to understand the subjective side of the impact of colonialism. But Africans, in my experience, take it as an article of faith that colonialism was bad and that it would be unpatriotic to think otherwise. So its catch 22. Few people who understand the inside story have enough objectivity to really grapple with the question.

For me it's simple ethics

[Brandy Blue]

For me it's simple ethics

You are certainly entitled to that point of view, but I am suspicious of simple answers to complex situations. Wars seldom happen for one reason. Colonialists gave Ethiopia and Eritrea reason to fight each other, but Eritreans set off the 1998 war and refused to accept mediations for a status quo settlement. Does that make it all Eritrea's fault? well, obviously not entirely, but their leaders could have prevented thousands of deaths.

I respect your concern for justice and for the suffering of victims. It is a fine trait to have. However, it is possible to draw very different conclusions from that beginning.

For example, I could tell my son that he might as well not bother at school because American society holds down African-Americans and he will never get a good job anyway. However, I don't think that is what he needs to hear. He needs to understand the truth - that sometimes he will be treated unjustly. But that is only part of the picture. He also needs to avoid self-destructive behavior like inattention at school, even if it can be traced back (in a sense) to how white Americans treat blacks. When people blame everything on what others did to them, they give up on themselves because they feel they have no control over the bad things that keep happening to them. That is not just true for individuals. It is true for whole ethnic groups or even nations.

Blaming African conflicts on colonial powers is part of the truth, but not the whole. The fact remains that African people have sometimes made the decision to deal with post colonial problems by killing each other and at other times have chosen not to. Can you imagine the blood bath that South Africa would be now if it were not for many people both in ANC and Inkatha who choose peace over violence? Not that things are perfect there right now, but they could be much much worse.

I was privileged as a child to get to know one of the people who worked uncomplainingly for forgiving reconciliation. I regret to this day that I was too young to understand what a fine person he is. I had so much to learn from him. It is true that saving one tree does not make up for wantonly destroying eighty. It is also true that the one guy who stands up against eighty guys to save that tree deserves honor and respect. If you leave him out of the picture you leave out something important, regardless of whether that guy is a white colonialist or an African struggling to heal his wounded country.

I realize that there is a fine line between saying that victims must take responsiblity and unjustly blaming them for the consiquences of other people's actions. I realize also that it is very hard for Africans to change their situation, perhaps harder than any of us can understand. Nevertheless, I must disagree with you, even though I respect what you have to say.

[Furunculus]

good post, thoroughly agreed.

[al Roumi]

Now if only we could have started off this way (that's not a reflection of the OP).

[Karel de Stoute]

I don't know if it has been mentioned before but Africans have a different set of morals than western society. Theres a reason they were called savages. Those buggers used to eat human flesh and some still do(congolese rebels). Now you can say okay, they are just different. But i like to say that our western values are a lot better than the African ones. Western, Islamic, Chinese and other comparible cultures i value equally but africa is just something else. Horrible thing are going on there: They still burn witches, a genocide every 10 years, systematic rape in the congo, aids speading wild because the pope said they cant use a condom, lets boil the skin of an albino because it has magical power.... In the past, it wasn't any better in Europa. But atleast we evolved past being primitive savages. Colonisation is the best thing that ever happend to that hellhole of a continent: Modern medicine, education, higher standard of living(everything beats walking around naked and living in mudhuts), more sofisticated and efficient systems of government then tribalism, contact with the rest of the world other than the occasional slave market... They to can evolve, adopt some western values like equal rights for all people(instead of, look overthere, a hutu cockroagh let's bash his skull in with a machete). Colonisation was a bit rough at first but all with the best intentions. I firmly believe in the white mans burden. It was our duty to interfere with africa. And that's not racist, if history would have gone differently, and the african continent evolved further than eurasia it would be their duty to come and civilize us. The biggest fault with colonisation is that it ended to soon. Those countries should have been gradually prepared for their independance over the course of many decades afterwich they would finally be able to abandon their primitive toughts and enjoy the same standard of living we do.

[Fisherking]

I think you have over generalized with you statement Karel de Stoute.

Some of the practices seem brutal and barbaric but how widely are they spread?

Every Continent has had its good guys and bad guys.

Some cultures are more palatable to us than others. There are many groups in Africa as different as Danes from Arabs and to lump them all together obscures the picture.

Civilization and culture are relative terms. Many of our own advances have come from contact with so called savages.

Much of representative government came from Native American Tribes as did the knife, fork, and spoon you eat with at meals. Prior to that our European Ancestors ate with fingers and eating knife.

Africa has given us mostly food stuffs and ways of cooking.

It has seldom been the case that subject people have been viewed as much better than beasts. We do a poor job of assessing what is worthwhile and are more intent in remaking the same familiar society as where we came from.

From Ireland to the Pacific Islands the pattern seems much the same. The Natives are incapable of self rule so we must act in their best interest if they like it or not.

But the cultures had managed just fine before we got there.

Did we aid them to advance technologically, indeed.

Did we teach them to solve problems of government, no but then we don’t always do the best job either.

But that is just my view.

[Strike For The South]

I don't know if it has been mentioned before but Africans have a different set of morals than western society.
Those buggers used to eat human flesh and some still do(congolese rebels). Now you can say okay, they are just different. But i like to say that our western values are a lot better than the African ones. Western, Islamic, Chinese and other comparible cultures i value equally but africa is just something else. Horrible thing are going on there: They still burn witches, a genocide every 10 years, systematic rape in the congo, aids speading wild because the pope said they cant use a condom, lets boil the skin of an albino because it has magical power.... In the past, it wasn't any better in Europa. But atleast we evolved past being primitive savages. Theres a reason they were called savages.
Colonisation is the best thing that ever happend to that hellhole of a continent: Modern medicine, education, higher standard of living(everything beats walking around naked and living in mudhuts), more sofisticated and efficient systems of government then tribalism, contact with the rest of the world other than the occasional slave market... They to can evolve, adopt some western values like equal rights for all people(instead of, look overthere, a hutu cockroagh let's bash his skull in with a machete). Colonisation was a bit rough at first but all with the best intentions. I firmly believe in the white mans burden. It was our duty to interfere with africa. And that's not racist, if history would have gone differently, and the african continent evolved further than eurasia it would be their duty to come and civilize us. The biggest fault with colonisation is that it ended to soon. Those countries should have been gradually prepared for their independance over the course of many decades afterwich they would finally be able to abandon their primitive toughts and enjoy the same standard of living we do.

Even if any this rubbish were true. That does not deny them humanity

Aside from you being on an obvious roll

[Karel de Stoute]

i never said africans were beasts, i just said they have a lot to learn.
Colonisators never considered them to be animals.
Their culture was concidered as a childish form of our own and it was the civilized nations duty to help them mature.

[Fisherking]

i never said africans were beasts, i just said they have a lot to learn.
Colonisators never considered them to be animals.
Their culture was concidered as a childish form of our own and it was the civilized nations duty to help them mature.

That is quite true.

You didn’t call them animals.

I hope you didn’t misunderstand me.

I only said it was an over generalization and pointed out the attitudes of some colonial types.

I was trying to point up the value in some other cultures.

As for SFTS...he gets worked up easy.

[Karel de Stoute]

I apologise for exagerating it all a bit, that's a fault i usually make when trying to make a point.
Yes, fisherking, u are right that western culture also learned alot from other cultures. But when you compare the trade with Africa: foodstuff from them to everything the west brought to Africa. I believe gratitude is the least we can expect.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I believe gratitude is the least we can expect.

Now let's not get carried away...



Edit: Come to think of it, carried away is exactly what happened, millions of times, as they were brutally shipped across the Atlantic.

[Karel de Stoute]

Lets not forget that Africans being carried away as slaves could never have happend without local support. European slavetraders never went inland. They just had to wait in coastal setlements for local chiefs willing to sell rivaling tribes or their own population to show up and trade them for guns and alcohol. The slavetrade indeed totaly disrupted the local society but that was partialy their own resposability. If local chiefs were not as greedy as they were, they could have easily stopped participating and europeans would have been forced to look for other sources of cheap labor.

[51point1]

You are certainly entitled to that point of view, but I am suspicious of simple answers to complex situations. Wars seldom happen for one reason. Colonialists gave Ethiopia and Eritrea reason to fight each other, but Eritreans set off the 1998 war and refused to accept mediations for a status quo settlement. Does that make it all Eritrea's fault? well, obviously not entirely, but their leaders could have prevented thousands of deaths.

I respect your concern for justice and for the suffering of victims. It is a fine trait to have. However, it is possible to draw very different conclusions from that beginning.

For example, I could tell my son that he might as well not bother at school because American society holds down African-Americans and he will never get a good job anyway. However, I don't think that is what he needs to hear. He needs to understand the truth - that sometimes he will be treated unjustly. But that is only part of the picture. He also needs to avoid self-destructive behavior like inattention at school, even if it can be traced back (in a sense) to how white Americans treat blacks. When people blame everything on what others did to them, they give up on themselves because they feel they have no control over the bad things that keep happening to them. That is not just true for individuals. It is true for whole ethnic groups or even nations.

Blaming African conflicts on colonial powers is part of the truth, but not the whole. The fact remains that African people have sometimes made the decision to deal with post colonial problems by killing each other and at other times have chosen not to. Can you imagine the blood bath that South Africa would be now if it were not for many people both in ANC and Inkatha who choose peace over violence? Not that things are perfect there right now, but they could be much much worse.

I was privileged as a child to get to know one of the people who worked uncomplainingly for forgiving reconciliation. I regret to this day that I was too young to understand what a fine person he is. I had so much to learn from him. It is true that saving one tree does not make up for wantonly destroying eighty. It is also true that the one guy who stands up against eighty guys to save that tree deserves honor and respect. If you leave him out of the picture you leave out something important, regardless of whether that guy is a white colonialist or an African struggling to heal his wounded country.

I realize that there is a fine line between saying that victims must take responsiblity and unjustly blaming them for the consiquences of other people's actions. I realize also that it is very hard for Africans to change their situation, perhaps harder than any of us can understand. Nevertheless, I must disagree with you, even though I respect what you have to say.

Read through this entire thread and I must say, this is quite easily my favorite post.

I apologise for exagerating it all a bit, that's a fault i usually make when trying to make a point.
Yes, fisherking, u are right that western culture also learned alot from other cultures. But when you compare the trade with Africa: foodstuff from them to everything the west brought to Africa. I believe gratitude is the least we can expect.

You said some things in your earlier post on the barbarity of pre-colonial Africa that I hated to hear but couldn't refute. Truth's...to an extent. But Gratitude? You believe Africa owes gratitude for the condition it was left in? You don't give a man a bonus for a half assed job. You don't leave firearms in the hands of men that could have only kill each other with spears before and feel you deserve gratitude.

Lets not forget that Africans being carried away as slaves could never have happend without local support. European slavetraders never went inland. They just had to wait in coastal setlements for local chiefs willing to sell rivaling tribes or their own population to show up and trade them for guns and alcohol. The slavetrade indeed totaly disrupted the local society but that was partialy their own resposability. If local chiefs were not as greedy as they were, they could have easily stopped participating and europeans would have been forced to look for other sources of cheap labor.

Well isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? As savage and greedy as these chiefs were, these monarch's superior morality didn't lead them once to second guess where thousands upon thousands of living breathing human beings were being ripped from and sent to. Come on, Europe was doing nobody but themselves a favor in taking one from his home to a foreign land in bondage. No effable level of poverty justifies that.

[Brandy Blue]

Read through this entire thread and I must say, this is quite easily my favorite post.

Mine too. I'm so modest. :) My thanks to you and others who said nice things.

[Fragony]

I apologise for exagerating it all a bit, that's a fault i usually make when trying to make a point.
Yes, fisherking, u are right that western culture also learned alot from other cultures. But when you compare the trade with Africa: foodstuff from them to everything the west brought to Africa. I believe gratitude is the least we can expect.

While I don't agree they have anything to be grateful for, why apologise for making a fair point.

[Strike For The South]

The West raped Africa for diamonds, rubber, oil, manpower, ecetera

Not just "foodstuffs"

[Karel de Stoute]

I was talking about what we learned from eachother and without knowhow from the west all those precious natural resources would still be under the ground. Nobody would profit from them, not the colonials and not the corrupt dictators that followed them.

[Centurion1]

while true strike those are simply resources not cultural and technological items of interest.

[Prince Cobra]

I think we should all agree that Japan is extremely poor developing country. It missed her historical chance to be a colony and now I have no idea how the country will get out of the swamp it is now. It is a good example what happens with countries that did not become colonies. Just an example.

[Centurion1]

unique example really. plus japan had a highly developed culture before contact with europe.

[Fragony]

The West raped Africa for diamonds, rubber, oil, manpower, ecetera

Sure but did the place get any worse by it, I'm with you in the ethical department but can you really say it has gotten worse. Put it on a 1 to 10 scale, nothing is known about pre-colonial Africa except from Arab scources and they weren't very friendly towards the Africans either, no written scources . All that remains is what we find good or bad, and we don't live there.

[Strike For The South]

I'm going to have a coronary

while true strike those are simply resources not cultural and technological items of interest.

Resources which were sent right back to Europe to fund everything from the Bismarck to the Lourve. All the while Africans were put underbondage, working the land for the white man while he took all the glory

Really jives with the the whole enlightenment thing we try to hold up

I was talking about what we learned from eachother and without knowhow from the west all those precious natural resources would still be under the ground. Nobody would profit from them, not the colonials and not the corrupt dictators that followed them.

So it is ok to rape, murder, pillage, and enslave as long as you know how to get to those rescources?

Listen guys I have no problem looking at colonialism through a scholarly, historic point of view but when you tell me to look at it with my own morals and ethics and claim that it was anything more than a black mark on human progress, that I simply will not do.

The reverberations are still being felt today, my great-great grandparents hid slaves, my great grandparents tuaght sharecroppers how to read, my grandparents saw lynchings and , my parents saw black men being beat up for not saying "sir" to some 19 year old white bully.

Edit: I come from a very long line of Abolishonist Protastents, most of whom would make Rhy blush

Do not sit here for a second and tell me Africans owe us anything. If anything we owe Africans for not rising as one and slaying us because it is most certianly what we deserve

Sure but did the place get any worse by it, I'm with you in the ethical department but can you really say it has gotten worse. Put it on a 1 to 10 scale, nothing is known about pre-colonial Africa. All that remains is what we find good or bad, and we don't live there.

O RLY?

[Fragony]

Yes RLY, so if you want to scale it you have nothing to compare it with, common sense says infinitely worse of course, especially given thr rubber trade that was sickness reinvented, but can you say for better or for worse? If you can please do

[Strike For The South]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom...olonial_Africa

To start

There are a few missing but those that are seem to coincide with Euro arrivial

[Centurion1]

its a unanswerable question. did the west coming to africa hurt it? yes. has it helped it in some ways? yes. the real question is did it speed up the development of their technology faster than they would have done on their own?

[Strike For The South]

its a unanswerable question. did the west coming to africa hurt it? yes. has it helped it in some ways? yes. the real question is did it speed up the development of their technology faster than they would have done on their own?

No the real question is did we do irrerperable harm to a people which should've been allowed to go through the same growing pains as everyone else

We did, and now the arbatrairy lines on the continent are nothing more than hotbeds for pestilence and despair

I'm not asking for you to feel bad about it, just acknoweldge it.

[Fragony]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom...olonial_Africa

To start

There are a few missing but those that are seem to coincide with Euro arrivial

I know that. But the west is more advanced it doesn't hurt all that much admitting that. But it doesn't matter, would they have been happier had we just leaved them to be, yes, and it's a tragedy we didn't

[Strike For The South]

I know that. But the west is more advanced it doesn't hurt all that much admitting that. But it doesn't matter, would they have been happier had we just leaved them to be, yes, and it's a tragedy we didn't

I agree with you.