Lack of new people is killing the backroom and the entire forum

[G. Septimus]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I had been a member of the .org and for a time a staff member, for several years, until I finally decided to give up on TW and move on. I had vowed not to come back here, ever, but those that know me here know that when there's an itch I cannot resist to scratch... this thread had my attention for a while and finally drew me in.

ACIN is right in many respects, except with respect to the "failure" of the TW games.

From a "veteran's" perspective the series has declined and could be seen as a "failure" - but blaming the series itself for the decline here is sheer blind stupidity and folly to say the least.

While writing this I only have to look at the stats for today (better than the last time I looked a week or two ago in fact) to see what's going on:

There are currently 170 users online. 22 members and 148 guests

I can then head over to TWC and take a look at the same stats for their forums:

Currently Active Users: 1097 (217 members and 880 guests)

So the .org has 22 members logged in, the TWC has 217. There are 880 lurkers/bots viewing the TWC, only 148 viewing the .org.

The members here can criticise TWC all they like. You can laugh at their "juvenile" discussions, extra bling, personal avatars and you can level any criticism you want at them. But to the casual observer, the person thinking of joining this site, this looks bad. Some of the criticism of TWC and some of the preaching and lecturing that goes on here smacks of supreme arrogance, snobbery and elitism. It's not what new members like to see and believe it or not it attracts the "wrong type of member".

I see a lot of talk about "maturity" here. This is a gaming forum, why is maturity a requirement here?

If the TW games are now so very bad, why is it that TWC is thriving while this place is dying a slow painful death?

I think it's fairly simple and it's down to the simple fact that this place has consistently failed to move with the times and those moderating and indeed administrating this board are now for the most part no longer interested in the TW series or gaming. New blood will keep this place alive, old men moaning about how shogun and medieval were better certainly won't. I've been there, done it, been the moaner, been on the fence, taken the opposite side of the argument, etc. I can tell you from experience, there are no winners in this situation only losers..

The answer for the .org is not to emulate the TWC, but to look into relaxing some rules and allow users to upload their own avatars (which should be viewable by logged out users). The imposition of the TW portrait avatars may be a "tradition" here, but it also damages people's perspectives of this place.

The backroom, though not a vital forum, should be open to public scrutiny. There is nothing that is not PG13 in there as no porn is posted nor is there any more swearing in there than in any other part of the forum.

The reason why backroom discussions consists of the same few people debating the same issues, is because any newcomers cannot see the backroom and thus cannot become involved. People become involved in a thread by chancing upon it and just posting randomly on a subject they just happen to know something about. Those people never get the opportunity due to the backroom's closed status.

The moderation is also an issue in there as it consists of the same few people that moderate according to their own political, social and cultural views. Rotating the backroom moderatorship between all of the existing moderators would be a better idea and would mean that members would be judged impartially instead of having previous offences taken into consideration - or having one individual on their case, waiting for them to slip up.

There are also far too many cases where moderators intervene and jump in on petty issues of politeness, etc. If, e.g. the backroom members are expected to be "mature" they need to be allowed to sort out their own problems - moderators should be a last resort. The backroom should have less moderation and less focus than the rest of the .org, but in fact it has much more. This shows where the staff and administration's priorities seem to lie. Untie the members' hands and stop trying to direct the discussion.

A forum like the backroom is the "run off" from the rest of the forum - it's a by product of this place. The rest of the forum is in decline, so the backroom is now feeling it as well. The frontroom has already been in a bad way.

The .org cannot survive as a small community of a few old pals that used to play TW back in 2000 - 2007, now talking about US politics in the backroom or participating forum games in the gameroom. Without the initial draw of TW games, those areas will start to dry up as well. It's also extremely selfish for someone to adopt the "I don't care, I'm just here for the gameroom/backroom" approach.

There is also the hosting here to consider, while it's never been the best, it's always been (AFAIK) free and ad based. If the ads start registering a lower number of hits, the host realises the server space might be put to better use... well I'm sure you get the picture.

I think the staff need to back off and give more liberty and freedom of expression to the members. Staff initiatives won't save this place, for example one moderator writing a blinding article in e.g. the citadel, won't revive interest in M2TW here. A forum is not a place to read articles, people come here to converse and share ideas. Every post will not be a valid post, sometimes people will joke and stray off topic, if no one gets hurt in the process what's the big deal? This is how discussions form and flow - not by moderator intervention. It will be hard if not impossible to convince the staff of this as many are full absorbed into how the .org is run and consider it the "correct" way.

The .org needs to let it's members start living. New people will see this and they will come. Fancy tools and other bling are not needed here, just the basic "rights" of any forumite - to individuality. Take the staff pressure right off especially in offtopic areas, allow the members to upload their own avatars and most importantly get rid of the Junior Member system, so often perceived as snobby and elitist, that is choking this place like a gastric band.

Senior Members should also be abolished. Why have a rank to honour a few members that are selected by the staff and not other members? Where is the credibility in such a system? By all means give a token award (as with the HoF), but a rank that allows for nothing more than a title of seniority and larger PM box is just pointless and alienates the many that are overlooked because they don't post in the same forums as the active mods or the offtopic sections. Who knows, if some of these steps were taken, things just might start to move in the right direction. The alternative is to continue doing what has been done - which isn't working. The decisions on any of this do not of course lie with the moderators here, but with one man alone.

In my opinion it's up to TosaInu to take the initiative here and bring about change for the better, or to step aside for someone that has the time, ability, energy and interest in the TW series and the .org as a whole, that can.

A REBELLION.

That's one long post

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

is Kikuchiyo banned? he's showing 0 posts

[caravel]

A REBELLION.

No.

That's one long post

Yes, I got carried away.

is Kikuchiyo banned?

Not yet.

he's showing 0 posts

Only post is in the watchtower, joined today, posts in the watchtower don't count towards users' postcount, etc, etc.

[al Roumi]

Controversial... a masked poster claiming inside knowledge and experience!

One way or another, the mask will have to come off if you're going to be taken seriously.

Interesting points though, yet I'm not sure why anyone would be so focussed on the choice of personal avatar -doesn't the available range cater for most puerile homo-erotic desires/fetishes?

[caravel]

One way or another, the mask will have to come off if you're going to be taken seriously.

I see, so in your eyes unless I'm proven to be "ex staff" or a "veteran member", my views on this are valueless? I revealed no inside information, so I see no need for the "mask" to come off. The staff can and no doubt, will check my IP and can reveal if I'm ex staff or not, without revealing who I was.

I am not here to stay, I have simply dropped in and given my worth. People can take it or leave it - most likely they'll leave it. I cared about this place once, I still do a little and it saddens me to see it slowly going down the pan with nothing being done to save it.

Interesting points though, yet I'm not sure why anyone would be so focussed on the choice of personal avatar -doesn't the available range cater for most puerile homo-erotic desires/fetishes?

Because you are most likely a mature poster and established member. From your perspective the current systems in place here are acceptable, because you had to navigate these systems and presumably expect new members to do the same. Perhaps the kids that mostly play these games think differently? It's important for many members to have a recognisable and personal avatar instead of having to choose from a gallery of TW only portrait images. Give members basic rights of an individual, freedom of expression and get the moderators of their backs and people will come, continue as is and the decline will continue.

I know what Andres is getting at and he's right, but you cannot talk this place back to life no matter how hard you try, ACIN is also right, that if there's no threads, no discussion to hold a members interest, they will just go. Putting the onus on the members to just post more and hope, is just not good enough. The current state of the .org is not the members' fault.

This place has simply lost it's buzz and unless something radical is done to turn it around, this will continue. People can scoff at my avatar proposal, but that was only part of my argument. Allowing personal avatars won't hurt anything and is better than just shrugging and doing nothing.

[al Roumi]

I see, so in your eyes unless I'm proven to be "ex staff" or a "veteran member", my views on this are valueless?

No but the drama and subterfuge do undermine your credibility. In any case I really haven't been around long enough to know who you are/were (see left).

I do think you raised some good points, most of those in your post in fact. I just felt you dulled the keen-ness of your argument with the cloak and dagger/voice from the grave stuff. On the avatar thing, personaly, the TWC always seems so brash and corny and I honestly do get annoyed with enourmous/distracting sigs and avatars.

I certainly think you are spot on about the accessibility of the Org. The junior member thing (which includes an irritating inability to choose even among the TW avatars ) rang true in particular. I've already said I think the Backroom should be advertised and open on a simple request, with no need for probation or groveling.

[TosaInu]

New Members can't choose TW avatars?

[caravel]

New Members can't choose TW avatars?

They can. I can select from all the avatars... this is not the issue however.

[caravel]

No but the drama and subterfuge do undermine your credibility. In any case I really haven't been around long enough to know who you are/were (see left).

There is no drama, or subterfuge. Who I am is simply not relevant. I don't intend to stay, so don't want anything dragged up from the past. If it undermines my credibility that's fine, you can take my views at face value and pretend up just another new member that turned up to day.

I do think you raised some good points, most of those in your post in fact. I just felt you dulled the keen-ness of your argument with the cloak and dagger/voice from the grave stuff. On the avatar thing, personaly, the TWC always seems so brash and corny and I honestly do get annoyed with enourmous/distracting sigs and avatars.

TWC is brash and corny and overly bling. Personal avatars don't cause that, what does are the ridiculous titles, stars, awards, medals, banners and complex array of ranks pomp and ceremony, etc. Allowing personal avatars here won't turn the .org into a mess. It might make a better impression with new members, make the .org appear less authoritarian and might gain us some new blood - where's the harm in that?

I certainly think you are spot on about the accessibility of the Org. The junior member thing (which includes an irritating inability to choose even among the TW avatars ) rang true in particular. I've already said I think the Backroom should be advertised and open on a simple request, with no need for probation or groveling.

I don't see the problem in the backroom simply being completely open. It has more than enough mods to cope and there is nothing offensive posted in there. Again it can only benefit.

[TosaInu]

I've already said I think the Backroom should be advertised and open on a simple request, with no need for probation or groveling.

There is neither probation nor groveling asked/expected to access the Backroom (or anything else for that matter). Some PM I receive start with Lord or something like that, but that's not something I asked for.

There is also no need for groveling by anyone towards any moderator. All that said: no one wants to be addressed by a slur either.

There is no probation for the Backroom: anyone can register an account here and ask for Backroom membership. Even ask is a big word here, for people only have to submit a script.

There are also four moderators, from different timezones, in the Backroom to speed up approval of Backroom membership. I dare bet money on it that 99.9% is approved without more than a quick thought.

I got curious now and peek: there are 0 join requests. That can mean that there's no backlog at all.

Advertising is certainly a good point.

[al Roumi]

There is neither probation nor groveling asked/expected to access the Backroom (or anything else for that matter). Some PM I receive start with Lord or something like that, but that's not something I asked for.

There is also no need for groveling by anyone towards any moderator. All that said: no one wants to be addressed by a slur either.

My comment was tongue in cheek, one does have to ask to be admitted to the Backroom though -and I was told (probably not by a mod) it was not open to junior members (or those who hadn't posted enough to be considered human/insulting), as well as not being visible on the forum index until one has access.

And my apologies for the error re: junior member avatars.

[Sigurd]

Oh he is not a mystery to those who know him. But why the masquerade and why didn't you try this reform when wearing the green?
I remember a certain thread on swearing where you did conform to the current standard. Which rules does aggravate you so, our former bot instagib champion?

[Ludens]

A number of your points ring painfully true, but I wonder at your refusal to identify yourself and the comment that you are not yet banned. It's clear that you're upset with us for some reason.

I agree that the old guard's dislike of the new TW games played a part, although you cannot claim we didn't accommodate them. Every TW release got its own forums, guides, etc. It simply isn't a case of putting out chairs and people will come. If the community doesn't generate interesting content or discussion, people will simply move to another community, in this case the TWC or the OT fora.

Also, I doubt that overzealous moderation is responsible for the stagnation. You'll find a fair number of OT posts even in the Watchtower. The only thing we insist on is that people stay polite and don't derail threads, and I'd rather keep it that way.

[pevergreen]

I agree with some points, and as always, disagree with some others.

Also curious as to who you are. I've got no idea.

There was a period of time where I was worried about the moderators. Not they job they were doing, the fact that there didn't seem to be any new ones. Each time a new moderator was needed, an ex one was moved to the position, or an existing one took on more areas, or got transfered around. It got to the point where people I'd never seen suddenly were moderating a section they'd never interacted with.

As of late, however, my worry has dissapeared. Three new moderators in a short amount of time, with at least one other person asked if they would like to be.

I'd respond to your actual post, but I'm mentally tired.

[Andres]

Oh he is not a mystery to those who know him. But why the masquerade and why didn't you try this reform when wearing the green?
I remember a certain thread on swearing where you did conform to the current standard. Which rules does aggravate you so, our former bot instagib champion?

"Il n'y a que les imbéciles qui ne changent jamais d'avis."

If Kikuchiyo is who I think he is, then indeed, some of the things he says are a complete U turn compared to his previous opinions.

That doesn't automatically mean, however, that he is talking nonsense. In fact, some of the points he raises need to be taken into consideration, imo.

EDIT: I do agree that the "I left and vowed never to come back" part smells like unnecessary drama. It's just as easy to say "hey, I asked to disable my previous account X for personal reasons and I'm now using this new account, because I wanted to react in this thread, since I still care about this place"

[caravel]

Oh he is not a mystery to those who know him. But why the masquerade and why didn't you try this reform when wearing the green?
I remember a certain thread on swearing where you did conform to the current standard. Which rules does aggravate you so, our former bot instagib champion?

I did mention this while I was on the staff here. Swearing is another matter, equating my statements about moderators easing off or relaxing some rules, to simply "allowing swearing" is misleading. This mistake has already been made in this thread by another staffer. It's necessary to think outside the box here and not jump to the same textbook conclusions. My opinions on swearing are irrelevant now, but at the time I argued for a simple swear filter rather than the current intrusive and labour intensive method of editing posts. This idea was immediately shot down. A swear filter IMHO is still the best option, the moderators are not here to nanny or educate people - this is the same opinion I expressed in private discussions with other staff. Spotting and manual edits are also not a catch all - so what's the point? Search the .org for your favourite four letter expletive, I'm sure you'll find something.

A number of your points ring painfully true, but I wonder at your refusal to identify yourself and the comment that you are not yet banned. It's clear that you're upset with us for some reason.

There is no point in me identifying myself. It will achieve little and I'm not here to stop. I'm not yet banned is true. Not alluding to anything there. There is no bad blood between myself and staff members at least I don't think there is, that's another oversimplification of this as "ex mod with a grudge comes back to air grievances" or whatever. Not what this is about. The .org and it's interests are bigger than any perceived grudge or a few staff members that are not the majority of orgahs.

I agree that the old guard's dislike of the new TW games played a part, although you cannot claim we didn't accommodate them. Every TW release got its own forums, guides, etc. It simply isn't a case of putting out chairs and people will come. If the community doesn't generate interesting content or discussion, people will simply move to another community, in this case the TWC or the OT fora.

They were accomodated begrudgingly, not with enthusiasm - let's be honest shall we?. If you remember it was I that first posted suggesting we needed a Shogun 2 forum and fast and then continued to apply pressure. If I hadn't done, then who knows it may have gone the same way as NTW or not happened at all or come along very late. As ever TWC were way ahead of us. When it did happen, it was set up, given a temporary name and the members were left to go at it. The place soon turned to a mess and the never-ending waves of spambots didn't help much either. It took another absolute age to get any mods installed there. I also remember a thread where members were calling out for a mod - it had gotten that bad.

If on the other hand anything needs to be done in the backroom, it happens like lightning. While the S2TW forum had no mod assigned, the backroom had at least four, to hyper moderate a small group of regulars. Laughable, honestly.

My point here is that we have an admin and staff here that have for the most part, like myself, completely lost interest in TW and are unwilling to change or move with the times. Case in point I'm not sure what some of the staff and indeed some members, are afraid of if they abolish junior members? As I said back then, yes you may get one idiot spammer posting something nasty, but you may also get 1 decent member you otherwise might not have had. Other forums seem to manage ok, without such a system.

Also, I doubt that overzealous moderation is responsible for the stagnation. You'll find a fair number of OT posts even in the Watchtower. The only thing we insist on is that people stay polite and don't derail threads, and I'd rather keep it that way.

I think it goes much further than that in some areas. You don't really need to tell me this as I've seen the workings of this particular machine. If someone is not polite to someone else - supposing both parties are adult enough, then it is up to both parties to sort this out. If they haven't posted porn, swearing or links to wears how is it that a moderator needs to get involved. If the thread disintegrates into a flame fest, then the mod can step in, but all too often threads are closed or posts edited on a whim because the mod predicts trouble. It's this that stifles this place.

If Kikuchiyo is who I think he is, then indeed, some of the things he says are a complete U turn compared to his previous opinions.

That doesn't automatically mean, however, that he is talking nonsense. In fact, some of the points he raises need to be taken into consideration, imo.

I don't see how my opinions have changed? When did I not speak against the nannying moderation we have here in some forums?

When except for a long time ago, before I was a mod here, did I support the JM system? I can't remember supporting the JM system for the last few years? I had posted extensively - at great length in fact against the flawed idea that the system somehow keeps the "riff raff" out. When the mods were given extended powers to tackle spambots several months back, I brought up the issue again. I remember arguing that now spambots could be removed efficiently by all mods, that the argument for having JMs in order to contain bots was no longer valid and that we should consider scrapping it altogether. A huge thread followed, what came of that? Nothing as far as I can see? I was not the only staffer posting in favour of this.

When have I ever supported the portrait avatars? Not a huge issue but I don't see my U turn on this - I was all for restricting signature sizes, but never remember opposing personal avatars?

My arguments have always been for consistent moderation and not for example, hyper moderation in the members only backroom, and no moderation at all (until someone happened to walk in on them) in the members only social groups? I don't get where you're coming from with the U turn claim? To me it smacks of "don't listen to this former staff member's views, he said one thing when on the staff and is now saying something else entirely". Maybe try addressing any points in my post instead of this though?

[Sigurd]

I did mention this while I was on the staff here. Swearing is another matter, equating my statements about moderators easing off or relaxing some rules, to simply "allowing swearing" is misleading. This mistake has already been made in this thread by another staffer. It's necessary to think outside the box here and not jump to the same textbook conclusions. My opinions on swearing are irrelevant now, but at the time I argued for a simple swear filter rather than the current intrusive and labour intensive method of editing posts. This idea was immediately shot down. A swear filter IMHO is still the best option, the moderators are not here to nanny or educate people - this is the same opinion I expressed in private discussions with other staff. Spotting and manual edits are also not a catch all - so what's the point? Search the .org for your favourite four letter expletive, I'm sure you'll find something.

I will concede that when I read your post the first time I saw "Relax the rules" with no details and wondered what rules you wanted relaxed. Reading carefully again I now see that you basically want reforms in:
1. Avatar politics
2. Moderation
3. The member caste system.

Regarding swearing, I think the gameroom system is the best. And you did write this in our discussion:

After reading the above posts I concede that filters would indeed be a bad idea. Thank you for helping me to see the light.

Considering the EB Tavern situation, would you under this new reform have acted differently?

[caravel]

EDIT: I do agree that the "I left and vowed never to come back" part smells like unnecessary drama. It's just as easy to say "hey, I asked to disable my previous account X for personal reasons and I'm now using this new account, because I wanted to react in this thread, since I still care about this place"

It's hilarious... that you attack my credibility instead of the points I'm making. Just how does this relate to the matter at hand?

I made a huge post, "I left and vowed never to come back" was a small part of it. Did you read the rest at all? Or as usual are you just focusing on and dissecting the bits that you can use against me to discredit me?