This really has to stop

[rory_20_uk]

Egypt was Christian until the Muslims conquered it. Might is or at least was right.

What they do in their own ghastly country is their own problem. Our concern is what happens over here.

[Fisherking]

Oh, yes that must be right.

Then again why is everyone inflamed by American laws and practices. Not a European problem, right?

I thought that human rights were everyone’s concern, no?

Is the lack of interest because it is far away, or because the victims were Christians, or because the perpetrators were Muslims?

There also seems to be a lack of interest on the part of the Egyptian government to do anything about these sorts of things. Perhaps not as bad as Pakistan, where the rumor of lessening the blasphemy laws results in strikes and riots but nothings says it can’t escalate.

So much for a community of nations.

[rory_20_uk]

What, exactly, would you propose?

A note of condemnation?
Free money / aid?
Troops / police?

"Something must be done" is right up there with "think of the children!" in terms of utility.

[Fisherking]

No, we should deny that there are any human rights abuses occurring in any Islamic countries and ignore the whole thing.

If you don’t see a problem then there is no problem, right?

[rory_20_uk]

So... you think a stern letter is the way forward. Great plan! That will really help matters by doing nothing, but annoying the locals.

Or is making you feel somehow morally superior and end in itself?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sad. The Christian communities in the Middle East are the oldest in the world. They have endured for two thousand years. We may see them all destroyed, forever, in our lifetime.

There is an etnic cleansing going on in the Middle East. Harassment, religious pressure, emigration and demographic developments have sharply reduced the numbers of non-Islamic populations throughout the Middle East. Many are on the brink of extinction.

Tragically, non-Muslims have been very influential in Arabian nationalist movements the oast century. Their project of secular states, of an Arabian revival, seems to have largely failed. A sad irony. Rivalled in irony perhaps only by Iraq, in which Christians enjoyed a reasonable status ten years ago, but which is now etnically cleansed of non-Muslims.

[Fragony]

Egypt was Christian until the Muslims conquered it. Might is or at least was right.

What they do in their own ghastly country is their own problem. Our concern is what happens over here.

Rory I would never have you as a doctor, you are capable of telling me I'm going to have slow and painful death while solving a seduko

[rory_20_uk]

Rory I would never have you as a doctor, you are capable of telling me I'm going to have slow and painful death while solving a seduko

To be fair, I'd get the nurse to tell you. I'd be more interested to know if you were going to be cremated as I get some decent money for that.

[Fisherking]

Clearly religious intolerance is the underlying issue.

To me, religion just seems an excuse for disagreement and bloodshed.

At least in the media it is being portrayed either as a misunderstood religion of peace or a threat to world security.

What the truth is, I don’t know. But clearly something needs to be done regarding increasing militant acts against non-believers in their religion.

There isn’t much that can be more abhorrent than religious violence. There are those who feel justified in most any act, no matter how heinous.

There is no reasoning with them. Those who preach peace are usually the first victims.

Increased tolerance on the part of western countries is seen as weakness, meanwhile countries with Islamic majorities are unwilling or unable to deal with it.

What do we do?

I wish I knew!

Maybe I could get some decent money out of that.

[Hax]

Sad. The Christian communities in the Middle East are the oldest in the world. They have endured for two thousand years. We may see them all destroyed, forever, in our lifetime.

There is an etnic cleansing going on in the Middle East. Harassment, religious pressure, emigration and demographic developments have sharply reduced the numbers of non-Islamic populations throughout the Middle East. Many are on the brink of extinction.

Tragically, non-Muslims have been very influential in Arabian nationalist movements the oast century. Their project of secular states, of an Arabian revival, seems to have largely failed. A sad irony. Rivalled in irony perhaps only by Iraq, in which Christians enjoyed a reasonable status ten years ago, but which is now etnically cleansed of non-Muslims.

So it's not really "ethnic" cleansing, is it? It's religious cleansing. Sunnite Arabs killing Shi'ite Berbers, is that ethnic cleansing?In any case, don't be too fast in dismissing the situation as "largely failed". The politics of Nasser (which I guess you're aiming at) were largely impopular and did fail in the end, but it doesn't mean that the battle between the secularists and the wahhabists is now over. It's continuing, as it has been since thebeginning of the 20th century. And it's going on in Egypt as we speak. I don't think it's a very good idea to alienate secular Muslims (who may or may not regard themselves as secularist) by making sweeping statements about the diversity of the Islamic world, because you know what I'd like to see?

From Morocco to Afghanistan, I'd like to see western-style democracies with a clear seperation of church (mosque?) and state, where parliament is made up from Sunnites, Shi'ites, Kharijis, Copts, Druze, Zoroastrians, Jews and atheists too. I think there are some elements in Sunnite political theory that suggest some kind of seperation of church and state, and I think that the best we could do is to help the Muslim world fight their own demons, because that's basically what's going on. It's their battle, and the very worst action to take is to unite secularist and islamist Muslims against a common enemy. And I think we well know who that enemy would be.

[Yoyoma1910]

If Ice-T had been Egyptian, do you think his song with Body Count would have been Coptic Killer, instead of Cop Killer?

[HoreTore]

Peope getting killed in a dictatorship. Who would've thought?

[The Stranger]

Clearly religious intolerance is the underlying issue.

To me, religion just seems an excuse for disagreement and bloodshed.

... it is not Religious Intolerance... it is just Intolerance in general that is always the excuse and usually the reason for disagreement and bloodshed.

let's face it, father attacking the 57 year old dude that dates his daughter is a clear case of intolerance
the skinhead killing the ethopian for his i-pod is a clear case where atleast intolerance is used as an excuse for violence
the kenyans kicking out the white farmers is intolerance
sudan, egypt, afghanistan, iraq, israel, intolerance intolerance intolerance intolerance
spanish inquisition = intolerance

the list continues.

[Fisherking]

... it is not Religious Intolerance... it is just Intolerance in general that is always the excuse and usually the reason for disagreement and bloodshed.

let's face it, father attacking the 57 year old dude that dates his daughter is a clear case of intolerance
the skinhead killing the ethopian for his i-pod is a clear case where atleast intolerance is used as an excuse for violence
the kenyans kicking out the white farmers is intolerance
sudan, egypt, afghanistan, iraq, israel, intolerance intolerance intolerance intolerance
spanish inquisition = intolerance

the list continues.

Your examples are wide of the mark.


When it is simple bigotry there are easier ways of dealing with the problems.

Once religion enters the equation logic and reason are sidelined because it becomes a matter of faith and belief. Think of it as a force multiplier.

They are pure and their god demands and rewards their acts against the evil unbelievers.

It is no longer a matter of individual beliefs but of a unified block up in arms and that will hear no argument to the contrary.

Fragony is wrong that it is new. For some years now Coptics have been kidnapped and either disappear or forced to convert.

So far the Egyptian government and police agencies have done little or nothing about it.

It is not just an Egyptian problem either. Look what happens to other faiths in other Islamic countries. Even in Turkey the pressure is mounting.

So far as I am aware the Pakistani Christian woman is still condemned to death for insulting Mohamed.

Her crime:
She pointed out that in her faith Jesus arose from the dead after three day but when Mohamed died he stayed dead.

This was the insult to Mohamed that brought the death penalty.

Evidently nonbelievers are not permitted to discuss religion without being subject to death but it is excepted that they can be beaten or otherwise coerced and forced into excepting Islam.

Because of this case it was thought that the blasphemy law might be relaxed but that brought huge protests and the threat of more violence...and you think it is simple intolerance?

The changes need to come from within Islam but so long as voices of reason are shouted down or those more moderate are afraid to speak out, to include governments, then it is not going to happen.

Secular government would help but most of these countries are afraid of such a move. That would at least afford all citizens equal protection under the law, but may do little to stem the violence.

[The Stranger]

Your examples are wide of the mark.


When it is simple bigotry there are easier ways of dealing with the problems.

Once religion enters the equation logic and reason are sidelined because it becomes a matter of faith and belief. Think of it as a force multiplier.

They are pure and their god demands and rewards their acts against the evil unbelievers.

It is no longer a matter of individual beliefs but of a unified block up in arms and that will hear no argument to the contrary.

its not off the mark. but you are right that this is what happens, but it happens because everyone is making that difference between intolerance and religious intolerance, even those who oppose to it... we shouldnt. we should treat it all the same way and simply put a stop to this as we wouldve have done if it was racial intolerance or whatever kind.

and then there is always the question how intolerant of intolerance can and must one be XD

let me not sideline this discussion. carry on.

[Vuk]

Egypt was Christian until the Muslims conquered it. Might is or at least was right.

What they do in their own ghastly country is their own problem. Our concern is what happens over here.

Really? Then why did we go into Bosnia? Kosovo? Why did we stop Hitler? What goes on in Europe is the business of Europeans, right? Screw those stupid Jews and Poles, it is their problem, right?