The Way of the Samurai [Concluded]

[Reenk Roink]

Reenk, I know that you die early quite often in mafia games these days,

That's been what, 2 games, TAS and CoV, that I've died early. Other games I've played within the year I've lasted long, so no biggie. And in the past I've been able to survive in games when I would take a step back and say "man why didn't they lynch me for saying that or doing that?" so I'm not some sort of UltraWar victim here, don't worry. I was killed/lynched off very early frequently way back when, but that doesn't happen much now.

and I know that you rarely sign up unless the concept of the game entices you enough...

Very true.

but is this really the way to play?

Of course. On top of the extremely nice and novel mechanics of this game which allow for some great gameplay moves, pever is the Lord. You think I won't exploit this situation for all the fun and interesting possibilities it offers.

Other players in the role of Naritsugu wouldn't tolerate this, but it seems that because it's pever, you're allowed to literally get away with murder.

Certainly that's true, but we are not speaking of abstract hypotheticals here, we are talking about a very specific situation, so let's stick to it.

Besides, other players in the role of Naritsugu CERTAINLY wouldn't tolerate YOUR role in a mass vig killing group utilizing a neutral killer as well, all the while leaving pever open by using so many samurai...

So be careful of whining about the situation, k?

You cannot basically admit to killing God Emperor and then tell me not to accuse you of doing just that; it's obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that you're the killer, given the context of the narrative surrounding the kill.

This is definitely a problem. How did I basically admit to killing GE? The kill writeup is suggestive of me, agreed. However, you really cannot even open your mind to the possibility that it would be crafted in such a way to frame me? This isn't some brand new idea either, it has happened many times before.

Nor can you claim that myself or Pizza made poorly thought out vigilante kill choices when you have killed two people with zero strength.

Why can I not? Even if I had killed two people, it would still not stop me for criticizing you for killing more than two people.

What was the reason for killing Pizza?

The champion of pever and I wanted to send a message to the vig groups due to poor kill choices, and ESPECIALLY the amount of people used in the kills. There was also another reason for attacking Atpg, and indeed anyone who loses a duel. You will not come to know of it yet. Atpg and GE can PM me if they want to know.

And why the Dickens would you sanction such a move, pever?!

Because it was an awesome move.

You and I both know that the close bond with pevergreen could be the perfect cover for a mafioso to hide under, and yet we're not allowed to touch you because pevergreen specifically says so?

Of course this is a possibility. What is also true and you omit is that your role as organizer of the Mafia groups is also a perfect cover for the Mafia. Much better than mine indeed, as if you are Mafia, or become converted, you have much more resources with all the samurai rabble than myself of the champion of the Lord do.

By the way, were it not for pever disapproving, I would have certainly had you killed as soon as you started your organizations. Sasaki would also have been dead were it not for Lord pever (also think on that before you act like I had something to do with GE's death). So don't only act like your sword has been restrained by pever.

Even if you're not mafia, it's still foolish because you killed two town-aligned voters and ensured that the mafia weren't able to waste a kill on them... that's a bad choice in both regards.

Voting doesn't matter in this game, the cannon fodder thing is the only loss, as both Atpg and GE can certainly continue to offer their insights in the thread.

As compared to the blood on your hands compared to my ALLEGED hit list, you have killed more powerful townies who also have the cannon fodder attribute. Can you honestly not see beyond me for a second?

The peverreenk thing was real cute and everything,

Cute? I think she is patronizing us Lord pever...

and I was fine with supporting it and leaving you be... but I will not tolerate being threatened with death for actually trying to lead the town and keep the game going in some direction.

Yes, yes, bring on the martyr complexion. Like the rest of the town, including myself don't want what's best for the Lord, but of course, if it clashes with your envisioned direction, it is wrong.

I also won't stand for someone killing people who're basically proven to be town simply for gits and shiggles.

How are they any more proven townie than all the vig targets you have killed? Give me a freakin' break. Besides this game features conversion. By the way the "gits and shiggles" would only be icing on the cake for our alleged kills.

It seems to me that you are just bitter because the vigging is not going in the singular direction you want it to be. TOO BAD! Stop vigging, and myself and the champion of the Lord will lose much of our justification as well.

I also refuse to support a nepotist for a leader, because his intentions are not even remotely altruistic and are only counter-productive to a town victory. While we require pevergreen to survive the game in order to win, we can do that while ignoring what he says because he could well be (unknowingly) vetoing votes against mafia for all we know.

Treason. Blatant treason. Kill please.

Someone has to make a stand, and since you killed Pizza, it's going to have to be me. I will lose the game if I die, so it doesn't matter either way; I'll still have my integrity because I distanced myself from this utterly silly manner in which you're approaching the game.

I can't believe the irony is completely lost on you here. What is utterly silly is the way you have managed the vig kills. Our actions serve as a caricature of yours, with an attempted pedagogical purpose, but you are simply blinded by your weird sense of principles, and what seems like a mix of jealousy, bitterness, and lack of total control.

unvote, vote: Reenk Roink

Unvote, Vote: Secura

[Diamondeye]

vote: Reenk Roink

[Reenk Roink]

That doesn't mean jack; if you don't like the way a lynch looks, you can have it go your way regardless of everyone else's opinion. That does lead to nepotism.

That's the POINT of the game. Beefy made it clear who the Lord was before signups ended. That is the role, whoever has it. You just seem bitter because things aren't going exactly your way in everything, even though Lord pever has been nice enough to invest in you a great deal of power anyway.

but what I'm not okay with is the killing of Pizza/God Emperor who were no threat to anyone. I'm also not okay with being told that I should watch my accusations lest I follow suit.

Atpg was the organizer of the largest vig group. He was a direct threat to townies (and Mafia as well of course, but more likely townies), and furthermore, his horde policy was a threat to pever. You continue that policy.

Who were your vig targets a threat to? Your power? They touched off your scumdar?

How is that conducive to town victory? Pizza and I can be slated for the coordinated vigilante attacks, but at least they were potential suspects and overall unknown quantities. >.<

The sheer high-falutin' nature of your justification just adds more absurdity to this situation. I like it.

He claims to have received a PM from Beefy offering him the choice of what to do; he chose to act with the town and has stated that he's only capable of winning with us now.

Since he followed the order to vig Captain Blackadder and willingly PM'd me about the choice Beefy had offered him, I'm willing to give him a little breathing space for now.

Wow, do you not see how easy it is to infiltrate your group if "following orders" is the way to go. SK's need to kill people, why wouldn't he just listen to you and kill for you? Not to mention the point about your suspects and unknowns that was made earlier.

I mean all vigilante attacks, including Reenk's; this game cannot be one rule for some, another for everyone else... we'll just lose that way.

I really hope you understand what the second clause of your post is saying, and do some deep introspection. Because unfortunately, given your other posts, it seems to me you probably have completely missed the point and only see it as some jab at a perceived nepotism of pever towards me.

[Secura]

Besides, other players in the role of Naritsugu CERTAINLY wouldn't tolerate YOUR role in a mass vig killing group utilizing a neutral killer as well, all the while leaving pever open by using so many samurai...

And yet pevergreen passed on all of Pizza's information to me and endorsed the vigilante killings, simply asking that I not involve or target two specific people.

It depends on the player in the role, but you're utilisingabusing the position of pevergreen to your own ends; if pevergreen doesn't like the vigilante attacks, which he has already stated, then they stop, it's as simple as that.

This is definitely a problem. How did I basically admit to killing GE? The kill writeup is suggestive of me, agreed. However, you really cannot even open your mind to the possibility that it would be crafted in such a way to frame me?

So you're honestly saying that it's a set-up?

While I don't buy it personally, I'm not going to dismiss it as a possibility; if that's the case, you're either talking about someone who played the game (Beskar, autolycus, Skooma Addict are ones that I can recall) or you're suggesting me as the perpetrator.

Why can I not? Even if I had killed two people, it would still not stop me for criticizing you for killing more than two people.

Because it's hypocrisy! You're criticising me for "poor vig choices" and yet you have made equally poor ones yourself!

The champion of pever and I wanted to send a message to the vig groups due to poor kill choices, and ESPECIALLY the amount of people used in the kills.

In what sense were they poor kill choices? I'm willing to listen to what you have to say here.

Because it was an awesome move.

It was a completely foolish move, Reenk.

Of course this is a possibility. What is also true and you omit is that your role as organizer of the Mafia groups is also a perfect cover for the Mafia. Much better than mine indeed, as if you are Mafia, or become converted, you have much more resources with all the samurai rabble than myself of the champion of the Lord do.

Yeah, sure, organising vigilante attacks is a decent cover as well, but since I'm certain of my own innocence, why mention something that isn't a possibility?

"Much better" is subjective, by the way; pevergreen's expressed that we shouldn't touch you whatsoever, basically... you cannot get any better than being vouched for on the basis of "Reenk would never lie to me!".

By the way, were it not for pever disapproving, I would have certainly had you killed as soon as you started your organizations. Sasaki would also have been dead were it not for Lord pever.

I still fail to see how acting like this is conducive to a town victory.

Voting doesn't matter in this game, the cannon fodder thing is the only loss, as both Atpg and GE can certainly continue to offer their insights in the thread.

I wouldn't have agreed with this statement earlier today, but having learned that pevergreen can veto any lynch he wants, I find I have to agree... voting's pretty useless.

As compared to the blood on your hands compared to my ALLEGED hit list, you have killed more powerful townies who also have the cannon fodder attribute.

More powerful townies how? There's no evidence as to whether they had one strength or five, and while Pizza/God Emperor had zero strength, they were contributing more than the three targets killed by coordinated attacks.

Yes, yes, bring on the martyr complexion. Like the rest of the town, including myself don't want what's best for the Lord, but of course, if it clashes with your envisioned direction, it is wrong.

So, basically... you're allowed to threaten me with death, which let's not forget means I will lose no matter the game's outcome, and I'm supposed to be okay with that?

That makes no sense whatsoever.

How are they any more proven townie than all the vig targets you have killed? Give me a freakin' break.

So you're disputing that Pizza and God Emperor were town?

It seems to me that you are just bitter because the vigging is not going in the singular direction you want it to be. TOO BAD!

Hahaha! It doesn't have anything to do with bitterness or anything puerile like that; I can't believe you'd degenerate a good argument by resorting to stuff like that?

Treason. Blatant treason. Kill please.

We're playing for a town victory, not a peverreenk victory.

If this favouritism rubbish continues, what's the point in even following what pever says? We make a conscious lynch decision, he can override it on the slightest whim.

I'm playing to win the game with pever, not in spite of him.

I can't believe the irony is completely lost on you here. What is utterly silly is the way you have managed the vig kills. Our actions serve as a caricature of yours, with an attempted pedagogical purpose, but you are simply blinded by your weird sense of principles, and what seems like a mix of jealousy, bitterness, and lack of total control.

I'm not certain what you're trying to say here; what's the problem with the way that the vig-kills have been managed? I'm doing exactly what Pizza did, following his instructions to the letter and yet did you take him to task for it?

Oh yes, that's right! You killed him instead!

And what the hell is this "jealousy, bitterness and lack of control" tripe about, apart from descending into slating me personally again?

Unvote, Vote: Secura

If you really want to lynch me or vig-kill me, go for it... hell, get pever to override the lynch and do it for you, saves you the votes then.

[Diamondeye]

I'd vote RR again if I could out of principle. I wouldn't be sad to see him lynched today.

That said; Vigilante crew (formerly ATPG's guys), want to break RR tonight? I think we can take him if we're 8.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

slash claims to have received a role that means he now works with the town?

unvote, vote:slashandburn

I suppose if reenk ends up lynched we will see if pever can choose the lynch after all.

[Secura]

vote: Reenk Roink

I'm afraid that this is a wasted vote, Diamondeye; you cannot lynch Reenk.

That's the POINT of the game. Beefy made it clear who the Lord was before signups ended. That is the role, whoever has it. You just seem bitter because things aren't going exactly your way in everything, even though Lord pever has been nice enough to invest in you a great deal of power anyway.

Again you resort to calling me bitter for no reason; it's a forum-based game, Reenk... I've got more important things to be bitter about like my sub-par financial situation, men thinking they can treat-me-mean-keep-me-keen or the fact I have to pay three times the money to complete my last year of university than I did the first.

The point of this game, or any game for that matter, is fun; is it fun to discuss and vote, come to some sort of agreement and go ahead for the lynch... only for someone to be able to overturn it? Would you not be pissed if I constantly prevented everyone from lynching my friends?

Atpg was the organizer of the largest vig group. He was a direct threat to townies (and Mafia as well of course, but more likely townies), and furthermore, his horde policy was a threat to pever. You continue that policy.

I don't understand this whatsoever; "horde policy", "a threat to pever"?! pevergreen was fine with what Pizza was doing!

Who were your vig targets a threat to? Your power? They touched off your scumdar?

Yes, they were a huge threat to me, a weak kunoichi; I was ever so afraid of them.

Wow, do you not see how easy it is to infiltrate your group if "following orders" is the way to go. SK's need to kill people, why wouldn't he just listen to you and kill for you? Not to mention the point about your suspects and unknowns that was made earlier.

You say this as though I haven't remotely considered it!

I've seen serial killers play the good cop role with the town only to backstab them in the end, it happens. I didn't specifically state that slashandburn should be trusted until the end of the game, merely that he should be given a little breathing space for now, in my own opinion.

[Reenk Roink]

And yet pevergreen passed on all of Pizza's information to me and endorsed the vigilante killings, simply asking that I not involve or target two specific people.

Yup. And am I complaining loudly about pever's nepotism towards you? the point of that reply was to show that your statement of "had pever not been Lord you couldn't do what I accuse you of doing" applies to you as well. That's it?

It depends on the player in the role, but you're utilisingabusing the position of pevergreen to your own ends;

We feel the same way about you, to be sure.

if pevergreen doesn't like the vigilante attacks, which he has already stated, then they stop, it's as simple as that.

Yup. Same here, and you act as if pever has let me do everything I want. I bring the example of Sasaki again...

Honestly, call me whatever, I love to spar, but stop talking crap about pever when you don't even have the full inside information. Has it ever occurred to you that there was a bigger reason to protect the two names he gave you than just pevereenk or whatever? Has it ever occurred to you that I have told pever everything I know just as you, and am either making or not making my moves on his command as well.

While I don't buy it personally, I'm not going to dismiss it as a possibility; if that's the case, you're either talking about someone who played the game (Beskar, autolycus, Skooma Addict are ones that I can recall) or you're suggesting me as the perpetrator.

It could very well be those people, or yourself. Also people read games who don't play them, and I made mention of the 20 gold thing in CoV as well.

Because it's hypocrisy! You're criticising me for "poor vig choices" and yet you have made equally poor ones yourself!

YES! Now you get it! By the way, hypocrisy doesn't really preclude one from criticizing, though it does lessen to value of it in many cases. A smoker can tell his kid not to smoke for example. One of the major points of the Atpg kill which we both agreed upon, was to show how dumb the vig kills were. Also you gotta admit it is pretty ironic and mildly entertaining that a guy who is commanding a horde was killed easily by one person.

If you really want to know another reason here it is. While killing a 0 strength player would make one less kill for the Mafia, a 0 strength player very importantly adds nothing to the defense of pever. We were thinking, Atpg has just organized a huge number of people against what is probably an innocent. He isn't valuable to the defense of pever either. Another rationalization for attacking him is that should the attack fail, then the guy quite clearly was not a 1 strength townie, and this would be exposed immediately. At the risk of not too big a loss of a 0 strength townie. Atpg will continue to help town after his death anyway.

In what sense were they poor kill choices? I'm willing to listen to what you have to say here.

In what sense were ours of Atpg, after what you have read above? By the way, take this to PM, because some sensitive information may be leaked.

Yeah, sure, organising vigilante attacks is a decent cover as well, but since I'm certain of my own innocence, why mention something that isn't a possibility?

I'm certain of my innocence as well Secura. Furthermore, given how nice pever has been to me this game, I have an EXTREMELY low incentive to betray him. This is like the opposite of Shadow Fort when he was being cold to me, which held me off from investigating him as a recruit. You on the other hand have said some quite treasonous things.

"Much better" is subjective, by the way; pevergreen's expressed that we shouldn't touch you whatsoever, basically... you cannot get any better than being vouched for on the basis of "Reenk would never lie to me!".

I wouldn't, especially in the case I am in right now, betray pever at all. In Pirate Ship Mafia, I was initially going to betray TinCow because he annoyed the heck out of me with his "I like to play cautious stop forcing my hand thing." But after a while, and all of the help he gave me which he didn't have to, and how fun it was to play with him, I wouldn't even consider backstabbing him. Same way with pever. Even more so I guess.

This has been with the combination of Beefy's mechanic and writing, and pever being the Lord, the best game I have played in a long time, why should I ruin the good thing I have going? Don't worry though, I doubt I'll be playing many games in the foreseeable future so this is the only one you have to deal with this with.

I still fail to see how acting like this is conducive to a town victory.

Sasaki is very powerful, at least a strength 3. Also, knowing Sasaki, he would be a likely one to jump ship and join Mafia. I honestly would want him dead today, but pever has refused two times before. So be it. As for you, same reason as for Atpg. Moreso even.

More powerful townies how? There's no evidence as to whether they had one strength or five, and while Pizza/God Emperor had zero strength, they were contributing more than the three targets killed by coordinated attacks.

Because they had 1 strength. Obviously we know Atpg had 0 as a 1 strength attacker was sent to him. I know nothing about GE, but 0 seems like a decent guess. A 1 strength townie adds to pever's defense, especially if he's not doing anything. A zero strength doesn't. Simple. Atpg can certainly continue to help us in death, as can GE.

So, basically... you're allowed to threaten me with death, which let's not forget means I will lose no matter the game's outcome, and I'm supposed to be okay with that?

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Come on, you know how I operate. If I could do more than just THREATEN you with death, then I would leave out that step. See Atpg. Lord pever has declared you off limits. I am respecting that. not to mention that you are voting for me and threatening me in some way as well. It's part of the banter, I suggest you enjoy it a bit.

So you're disputing that Pizza and God Emperor were town?

No, how did you infer that from my statement? Atpg is almost certainly town, or was a 1 strength mafia which doesn't make too much sense. I don't know much about GE, but he was probably town given the writeup that showed he was too weak to fight back.

Are you disputing that who you killed were town?

Hahaha! It doesn't have anything to do with bitterness or anything puerile like that; I can't believe you'd degenerate a good argument by resorting to stuff like that?

You did seem bitter, because essentially, you came off as very upset that we would be operating in a vig group outside your jurisdiction and killing people yo didn't want killed. Well, we could say the same thing about your kill choices. In fact, that was kinda the point of it all.

We're playing for a town victory, not a peverreenk victory.

Yeah, who said we're playing for a pevereenk victory but you? here are the victory conditions, you should know them if you're a townie , but here they are:

Reenk Roink
Town
Strength: 5

Greetings Reenk Roink. You are one of the few friend pevergreen has. Well not sure about what pevergreen thinks of you, but you think he is anyway. Your job is to protect pevergreen

Major Victory: Two original mafia killed and pevergreen survives 15 night phases
Minor Victory: pevergreen survives 15 night phases
Minor Defeat: pevergreen dies
Major Defeat: Failure to survive

If this favouritism rubbish continues, what's the point in even following what pever says? We make a conscious lynch decision, he can override it on the slightest whim.

I was thinking almost the same thing in whats the point with you running around with your behind the scenes notes and talk, killing who you see is bad. I'm not trying to be mean here, but this is how the game works, pever calls the shots.

I'm playing to win the game with pever, not in spite of him.

Same.

I'm not certain what you're trying to say here; what's the problem with the way that the vig-kills have been managed? I'm doing exactly what Pizza did, following his instructions to the letter and yet did you take him to task for it?

Oh yes, that's right! You killed him instead!

Yes, we certainly don't like when who are most likely 1 strength townies who aren't leaving pever to dry by just default protecting him are killed. We see it as a much larger violation than killing a 0 strength townie who was actually directing vig kills and leaving pever open. You may disagree, but we definitely feel we have the stronger case.

Come on, arguing with Atpg is time consuming. Can you at least give us points for efficiency?

And what the hell is this "jealousy, bitterness and lack of control" tripe about, apart from descending into slating me personally again?

You really did seem to portray that in your posts. I may be wrong and you were just a merely outraged townie at my threat, but that's what I thought. Sorry if I was wrong.

[Reenk Roink]

I'm afraid that this is a wasted vote, Diamondeye; you cannot lynch Reenk.

But look at his threat to kill me in the night! I'm sure you will argue as ferociously against it as you did me.

Anyone who kills me will not survive the game by the way. There are two of us. And Lord pever.

Again you resort to calling me bitter for no reason; it's a forum-based game, Reenk... I've got more important things to be bitter about like my sub-par financial situation, men thinking they can treat-me-mean-keep-me-keen or the fact I have to pay three times the money to complete my last year of university than I did the first.

The point of this game, or any game for that matter, is fun; is it fun to discuss and vote, come to some sort of agreement and go ahead for the lynch... only for someone to be able to overturn it? Would you not be pissed if I constantly prevented everyone from lynching my friends?

Again, I'm sorry, and it's not namecalling in intent at least, but you really do seem bitter, even in this post. Again, THIS IS THE POINT OF THE GAME. You really seem pissed about it. And to be honest, I probably wouldn't have joined this game had pever not told me that he got the role of the Lord.

Not that it matters now, you've basically have a mutiny on your hands, and pever and you if you want wont stop it.

I don't understand this whatsoever; "horde policy", "a threat to pever"?! pevergreen was fine with what Pizza was doing!

Lord pever is a very generous ruler, who treats his subjects with a light hand. His bickering subjects on the other hand...

The point is pretty simple though Secura, if a lot of people are out killing at night, pever's defense drops for every one of them. I really can't see how this principle can be argued.

You say this as though I haven't remotely considered it!

I've seen serial killers play the good cop role with the town only to backstab them in the end, it happens. I didn't specifically state that slashandburn should be trusted until the end of the game, merely that he should be given a little breathing space for now, in my own opinion.

I would have s&b killed ASAP. Say you got another 8 people running around tonight to kill me, then s&b might want to take a shot at pever, as do the Mafia. Perhaps they overcome his defense at that point?

[Reenk Roink]

I'd vote RR again if I could out of principle. I wouldn't be sad to see him lynched today.

That said; Vigilante crew (formerly ATPG's guys), want to break RR tonight? I think we can take him if we're 8.

[Diamondeye]

[Secura]

Yup. And am I complaining loudly about pever's nepotism towards you? the point of that reply was to show that your statement of "had pever not been Lord you couldn't do what I accuse you of doing" applies to you as well. That's it?

Yes, I will concede that pever's shown me quite a bit of faith, particularly in passing on Pizza's information to me and so on.

However, there's one slight difference between myself and you though; neither of us are confirmed innocents, but for pever, your word alone suffices whereas mine does not.

I have stated my opinion on that friendship stance (Beskar and I have known one another for twelve years but we're not above lying to each other for mafia if it's required), but if he maintains you're innocent, then you must be.

We feel the same way about you, to be sure.

I'm not quite certain how, but fair enough.

Honestly, call me whatever, I love to spar, but stop talking crap about pever when you don't even have the full inside information.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

Has it ever occurred to you that there was a bigger reason to protect the two names he gave you than just pevereenk or whatever? Has it ever occurred to you that I have told pever everything I know just as you, and am either making or not making my moves on his command as well.

Yes and yes, actually.

It could very well be those people, or yourself. Also people read games who don't play them, and I made mention of the 20 gold thing in CoV as well.

The twenty gold thing was mentioned, yes... but the "dwarven legionnaire" bit, you'd have had to have participated, or at least read the thread, to know that.

One of the major points of the Atpg kill which we both agreed upon, was to show how dumb the vig kills were. Also you gotta admit it is pretty ironic and mildly entertaining that a guy who is commanding a horde was killed easily by one person.

I still don't understand why Pizza's loyalty and relaying everything through pevergreen was rewarded with a vig-kill... to prove a point?

While killing a 0 strength player would make one less kill for the Mafia, a 0 strength player very importantly adds nothing to the defense of pever. We were thinking, Atpg has just organized a huge number of people against what is probably an innocent. He isn't valuable to the defense of pever either. Another rationalization for attacking him is that should the attack fail, then the guy quite clearly was not a 1 strength townie, and this would be exposed immediately. At the risk of not too big a loss of a 0 strength townie. Atpg will continue to help town after his death anyway.

I knew all this already, but I still don't like to say that a player's useless just because their role has been neutered. The thing is, this game offers little to a player after death; why bother to contribute when you've lost anyway?

On that note, I'm not sure Pizza will continue to contribute after something we discussed earlier; I do hope he changes his mind, though.

You on the other hand have said some quite treasonous things.

That's my opinion, and I'd honestly say it again if need be; it's our right to question, after all.

Come on, you know how I operate. If I could do more than just THREATEN you with death, then I would leave out that step. See Atpg. Lord pever has declared you off limits. I am respecting that. not to mention that you are voting for me and threatening me in some way as well. It's part of the banter, I suggest you enjoy it a bit.

I unvoted you after speaking to pever, though; I'm not certain how you mean threatening though, not much I could do against you even if I wanted to. :P

No, how did you infer that from my statement? Atpg is almost certainly town, or was a 1 strength mafia which doesn't make too much sense. I don't know much about GE, but he was probably town given the writeup that showed he was too weak to fight back.

Because your statement seemed to insinuate that I had decided they were proven town of my own volition regardless of any evidence there could have been to the contrary.

Are you disputing that who you killed were town?

I have no idea, no reveals upon death.

You did seem bitter, because essentially, you came off as very upset that we would be operating in a vig group outside your jurisdiction and killing people yo didn't want killed.

That doesn't really bother me, there's other people been wandering around killing without talking to anyone and they probably will continue to do so after pever says they shouldn't.

Yeah, who said we're playing for a pevereenk victory but you? here are the victory conditions, you should know them if you're a townie , but here they are:

It's an off-the-cuff statement, Reenk; it didn't need you posting your role PM.

Come on, arguing with Atpg is time consuming. Can you at least give us points for efficiency?

It's fun, though!

You really did seem to portray that in your posts. I may be wrong and you were just a merely outraged townie at my threat, but that's what I thought. Sorry if I was wrong.

I think any player would react like me if they were threatened by Naritsugu's right-hand man; apology accepted, however.

[Secura]

But look at his threat to kill me in the night! I'm sure you will argue as ferociously against it as you did me.

Anyone who kills me will not survive the game by the way. There are two of us. And Lord pever.

pevergreen asked me to desist with the vigilante attacks, and so there won't be any coming from me; however, I cannot ensure that the rest of my group will comply with that, let alone the independent vigilantes.

Again, I'm sorry, and it's not namecalling in intent at least, but you really do seem bitter, even in this post. Again, THIS IS THE POINT OF THE GAME. You really seem pissed about it. And to be honest, I probably wouldn't have joined this game had pever not told me that he got the role of the Lord.

I'm not pissed off, I just like to think I sign up for a game and get my fun out of it; that hasn't happened in quite a while unfortunately, but at least this one's had some action. :>

Not that it matters now, you've basically have a mutiny on your hands, and pever and you if you want wont stop it.

What do you mean?

I would have s&b killed ASAP. Say you got another 8 people running around tonight to kill me, then s&b might want to take a shot at pever, as do the Mafia. Perhaps they overcome his defense at that point?

For now, I'd be willing to accept slash's claims that he has an entirely new role. However, if pever wants him dead, he should say so.

[slashandburn]

I will kill or protect by the direction of pever or one of his representatives. I can prove im not a serial killer by not killing tonight or for the rest of the game if you think that's approriate, pever?

[Reenk Roink]

I'm gonna streamline things a bit for easier reading.

Diamondeye: Man, my Time Cube buddy, I tried to honor you by communicating with one of my favorite songs, and you reply with Britney? Britney isn't even too much to look at anymore, I think Simon, John, and Nick are prettier.

Secura:

However, there's one slight difference between myself and you though; neither of us are confirmed innocents, but for pever, your word alone suffices whereas mine does not.

I'm fairly sure that pever is using more than my word at this point. I have also given further reasons why pever should trust me more than often. I'm not in the business of betraying people who have been good to me. It's not just blind pevereenk.

Also, could you tell me why your word does not suffice alone? I don't think pever has a detective result on you, and yet you are the second most powerful player in the game besides pever.

I still don't understand why Pizza's loyalty and relaying everything through pevergreen was rewarded with a vig-kill... to prove a point?

Yes. Since our convo is all over the place, here are our justifications for killing Atpg:

1) He was leading vigging efforts. We didn't like that.
2) He was vigging with a very large amount of players, which left pever more vulnerable.
3) He had just lost a duel, and was at 0 strength. This meant he had no effect on pever's defense.
4) Given 3, we thought it was worth the risk of killing a 0 strength townie, to potentially flag someone who wasn't who he said he was.

Given all of these reasons, the vig on Atpg to us seems like the most justifiable one yet.

Can you please give your justifications for your killings? In private if need be.

I unvoted you after speaking to pever, though;

Ah, my bad. Unvote: Secura Though you had just as much chance of facing the lynch as I did.

It's fun, though!

Eh, it's all been done with Atpg before. I don't think I've argued with you in depth, a little in Shadow Fort, but not much arguing was needed to be done before you confessed.

I think any player would react like me if they were threatened by Naritsugu's right-hand man; apology accepted, however.

The reason I described you as bitter was mainly this. You saw the GE kill and concluded it was me. But you didn't seem too upset about it at the time, giving it a mere ":/" and moving on.

And you and I both know that I am not technically Lord pever's right hand. Beefy chose that role randomly (which is a shame because I joined thinking pever would choose). Still, the actual right hand is just boss, and I'm happy to be the less important public figurehead.

Only AFTER I made my threat to you did you seem to almost explode. This situational factor made me draw the conclusions that I did.

Thanks though

tl;dr:

I don't for a second believe that me being part of killing a 0 strength Atpg, and ALLEGEDLY killing GE who was also probably 0 strength given the writeup, as anywhere as near harmful to the town as killing people who are basically lurkers (which is what I gathered from your choices).

This is because even a lurker is contributing if he has 1 or more strength to pever's defense.

The very notion that pever's defense is drawn from us makes the idea of killing townies with strength a HUGE loss, which is why vigging is especially bad for this game.

We should save our vigging for select targets we actually know a thing or two about (beyond mere suspicion).

Lastly (not directed to you Secura, but rather the more uncontrollable elements of your group), vig killing me is a pretty bad plan, especially as I will grow stronger tonight. You will upset pever, and certainly be killed off yourselves. Decide wisely.

[Diamondeye]

Diamondeye: Man, my Time Cube buddy, I tried to honor you by communicating with one of my favorite songs, and you reply with Britney? Britney isn't even too much to look at anymore, I think Simon, John, and Nick are prettier.

I had to find something which suited the occassion.
So - here's the awkward part - I browsed my iTunes and Britney was the first artist I came up with which worked (I considered Immortal Technique briefly for a more aggressive reply). We wuv Britney

[Secura]

Also, could you tell me why your word does not suffice alone? I don't think pever has a detective result on you, and yet you are the second most powerful player in the game besides pever.

It just doesn't; pevergreen's trusting me based on his previous trust of Pizza and that it was Pizza's wish that I take up what he was doing... whereas your word is your bond, the same doesn't apply to me.

I could say "I'm innocent" until the cows come home and he'd not bat an eyelid, whereas you need only say it once and he believes you. Those are pretty much his own words too. :P

Can you please give your justifications for your killings? In private if need be.

No need for privacy, I have nothing to hide.

I don't know why Lord of Lent was killed, I was simply following the orders I received while alive. Captain Blackadder was killed because he was a potential suspect of Pizza before he died. Cecil XIX was killed because he was lurking and considering the only other game I had to go on for his usual behaviour (Order of the Stick, he was mafia), I made the judgement call for him to die and was told it was a fine choice.

The other deaths, such as Kagemusha and Chimpyang, weren't related to my vigilante group as far as I know, though I have said that three of them failed to send orders; one confirmed that they chose to protect pevergreen instead, which I commended and was fine with, but the actions of the other two are unknown... I believe it's simple inactivity at this stage.

The reason I described you as bitter was mainly this. You saw the GE kill and concluded it was me. But you didn't seem too upset about it at the time, giving it a mere ":/" and moving on.

Well, the ":/" face was essentially "it might have been Reenk, but nothing we can do if it was". God Emperor's death was annoying and needless in my opinion, but clearly it's no great loss to you; I understand why now, but I still don't agree with it. :P

This is because even a lurker is contributing if he has 1 or more strength to pever's defense.

This is basically a double-edged sword, though; we keep them alive because even by lurking/inactivity they'll be keeping pevergreen alive, but this stifles town discussion as the mafia will eventually start picking the active players off and leaving said lurkers alive. There's also the possibility that a mafia could be hiding among the lurkers to begin with.

[Romanic]

pevergreen asked me to desist with the vigilante attacks, and so there won't be any coming from me; however, I cannot ensure that the rest of my group will comply with that, let alone the independent vigilantes.

Why do you bow to this tyrant?

Is it because he's impartial? Or wise?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

peverreenk must continue.

18/01/2011 9:18:28 AM pever Askthepizzaguy but im pever, bad at townie

The circle is now complete.

You have no chance Subotan. For the last two nights I have gained both Jedi and Sith powers, fufilling my destiny to bring balance to the force.

I am simply playing how I have been all game, and how I envisage Kyp would.

As ATPG and I agreed, tonight shall be me vs him until the death.

Desist and you may live, at least for a while.
But in the end, when it's all done,
would you be willing to trade your survival,
for one chance,
just one chance,
to come back here, and tell pevergreen,
that he may take away your vote,
but he'll never take away, your FREEEEDOM!!!!!!!

***

Vigilante is your only meaningful power in this game, don't trade it away to survive, and hope that pevergreen will make the right decisions. He's biased toward Reenk, you know it, everyone knows it.

Do what you deem best, and WTH if pever decides to kill you for it.

LET THE VIGILANTES FIGHT!!! FOR SECURA!!!!!!

Now I really wish to be alive in this game. Beefy!!! Put me on as a replacement.

[Reenk Roink]

It just doesn't; pevergreen's trusting me based on his previous trust of Pizza and that it was Pizza's wish that I take up what he was doing... whereas your word is your bond, the same doesn't apply to me.

Well, then his trust in you seems to be based on his trust in Atpg. Simply one more level of indirection for basically the same thing. Though we've gotten the feeling (he never explicitly said it but the feeling is there) that pever doesn't want you dead. We didn't get that with Atpg...

I don't know why Lord of Lent was killed, I was simply following the orders I received while alive. Captain Blackadder was killed because he was a potential suspect of Pizza before he died. Cecil XIX was killed because he was lurking and considering the only other game I had to go on for his usual behaviour (Order of the Stick, he was mafia), I made the judgement call for him to die and was told it was a fine choice.

OK, ignoring Lord of Lent as you weren't in command at that point, Blackadder I'm not too concerned about (he voted me, I major FoS'd him - he got what he deserved ) although you just killing him based on Atpg's suspicion seems weird but whatever. I haven't played much with Cecil but didn't he lurk in CoV too as a townie?

I can understand killing lurkers late in the game a bit more, they aren't doing what they're supposed to or ignoring something, though even then it's a stretch. This early it just seems a lot more likely more innocent Samurai are going to be killed. And as said before, they are vital to pever's defense.

This is basically a double-edged sword, though; we keep them alive because even by lurking/inactivity they'll be keeping pevergreen alive, but this stifles town discussion as the mafia will eventually start picking the active players off and leaving said lurkers alive. There's also the possibility that a mafia could be hiding among the lurkers to begin with.

I don't agree. Obviously Mafia could be lurking, but tons of townies lurk, and I have noticed a trend that Mafia are more active. Doesn't mean too much of course, trends are always exploited, but I don't think it bodes well for the killing of all lurkers.

I think a much better way to proceed is to have all 1 strength townies fight another one strength townie. That way neither will die, and both will be almost confirmed as 1 strength (they could technically have different strength values but the same as the other or they could be 1 strength Mafia but a lot is still known with this plan).

People who don't listen should be scrutinized. People who end up killing their partner even more so.

This is actually potentially gamebreaking come to think of it, but we might as well try for at least one round.

[Reenk Roink]

Now I really wish to be alive in this game. Beefy!!! Put me on as a replacement.

All right then, you can replace for me and play exactly my position, Lord pever's boots need frequent cleaning. It would be fitting for your treasonous ways.

Secura, you should have 4 1-strengthers fight each other today and continue with different ones later. Stagger them so not all are leaving pever open.

[Romanic]

All right then, you can replace for me and play exactly my position, Lord pever's boots need frequent cleaning. It would be fitting for your treasonous ways.

Secura, you should have 4 1-strengthers fight each other today and continue with different ones later. Stagger them so not all are leaving pever open.

Replace you? Oh the horror! I must respectfully decline your offer, pever would surely have my head for it.

[Secura]

Blackadder I'm not too concerned about (he voted me, I major FoS'd him - he got what he deserved ) although you just killing him based on Atpg's suspicion seems weird but whatever. I haven't played much with Cecil but didn't he lurk in CoV too as a townie?

I haven't been reading Council of Villains properly in a while, kinda lost interest in reading it fully since I'm not *really* allowed to comment given I know who Pikachu and Doopliss are; therefore, I didn't even know that Cecil XIX was in the game. :/

But yes, he was killed for being lurky and he'd acted the same way in OotS; probably just an inherent part of his gameplay, though.

I think a much better way to proceed is to have all 1 strength townies fight another one strength townie. That way neither will die, and both will be almost confirmed as 1 strength (they could technically have different strength values but the same as the other or they could be 1 strength Mafia but a lot is still known with this plan).

I understand the reasoning, but this would involve revealing the identities of at least some of my former vigilante group; is that not abusing my 'power', as well as revealing easy targets to the mafia?

[Secura]

Why do you bow to this tyrant?

Let's be honest, I was kidding myself by even believing that I could lead town efforts anyway! :/

that he may take away your vote,
but he'll never take away, your FREEEEDOM!!!!!!!

As I said earlier, I'd gladly repeat my so-called treason-laden comments; I stand by my opinion, no matter what happens. However, if I die, I lose... and I don't sign up to games to lose. :P

[Reenk Roink]

I understand the reasoning, but this would involve revealing the identities of at least some of my former vigilante group; is that not abusing my 'power', as well as revealing easy targets to the mafia?

You can easily do it without revealing the identities of them unless it is needed. By the way, of all the townies, vigilantes are the ones I'm least sorry to see go. Especially ones who want to kill me.

That reminds me, vote: Diamondeye, you won't be in the group that shows up at my place tonight.

Let's be honest, I was kidding myself by even believing that I could lead town efforts anyway! :/

At least you didn't get killed. We simply sat by this time drinking tea with the Lord...

[classical_hero]

I don't like the idea of a SK being part of the town, so I willl vote:slashandburn

I also challenge ReenK Roink for a duel. duel:classical_hero vs Reenk Roink

[Diamondeye]

That reminds me, vote: Diamondeye, you won't be in the group that shows up at my place tonight.

Obviously not, that would be suicide. I'm not a fool.

[Beefy187]

Do I see few of you inactive?
Liking the activity level of some of you.

I have to go to Uni. I shall do the write up when I get back

[Secura]

Well, that's a turn-up for the books.

I'm now heavily inclined to believe that slashandburn is telling the truth about his PM from Beefy, since I just received a similar one stating that I could change alignment if I wished, which would mean betrayal of Naritsugu, so I declined. Of course, you'll just have to take my word on that, but feel free to lynch me if you'd rather not.

As for a theory... it's possible that the mafia doesn't actually have any means of recruitment whatsoever, and instead certain players are approached with alignment change PMs from the host in relation to things they may have posted in-thread; since, at one point, I posted some anti-Naritsugu sentiment, I was an obvious choice for an alignment change, as was slashandburn who proposed subservience to the town in exchange for being allowed to live.

[Romanic]

I just received a similar one stating that I could change alignment if I wished, which would mean betrayal of Naritsugu,

say YES!!!!!

so I declined.

[Reenk Roink]

Well, that's a turn-up for the books.

I'm now heavily inclined to believe that slashandburn is telling the truth about his PM from Beefy, since I just received a similar one stating that I could change alignment if I wished, which would mean betrayal of Naritsugu, so I declined. Of course, you'll just have to take my word on that, but feel free to lynch me if you'd rather not.

As for a theory... it's possible that the mafia doesn't actually have any means of recruitment whatsoever, and instead certain players are approached with alignment change PMs from the host in relation to things they may have posted in-thread; since, at one point, I posted some anti-Naritsugu sentiment, I was an obvious choice for an alignment change, as was slashandburn who proposed subservience to the town in exchange for being allowed to live.

Hmm... I hate you very much pever.

By the way, Romanic were you Mafia?