Ice, Ice Baby no more!

[Strike For The South]

Yes, and that is why I say that they are disruptive to society. One of the people at my school was a half black and I could tell that people treated her differently, but it is the blacks who form their own reputation. You have to obey the law of the land that you are in, that is not too much to ask for.

removed by moderator


All of Eastern Europe needs to be leveled, at which point we can send some Germans in, they are a clean industrious people

[Fragony]

removed by moderator


All of Eastern Europe needs to be leveled, at which point we can send some Germans in, they are a clean industrious people

And removed by moderator can project it on the USA and blacks all you want but it's European affairs, aka different problems. The problem being over a million really poor and undeveloped people travelling west. thx eu

[Strike For The South]

removed by moderator, can project it on the USA and blacks all you want but it's European affairs, aka different problems. The problem being over a million really poor and undeveloped people travelling west. thx eu

Yea Europe and undrepresented minority groups which span national borders have such a rich and tolerant history

I'm sure it'll work itself out

[Vuk]

Thinking is not one of your strong points


All of Eastern Europe needs to be leveled, at which point we can send some Germans in, they are a clean industrious people

removed by moderator. Let me just point out that A. You have no idea at all what you are talking about, as the situation of Blacks in America (most of whom were brought over as slaves) and the situation of Gypsies in Europe (who migrated Westward from India are completely different, and B. I was not referring to race, but culture. I know that you love to play the race card, but get a life.
The fact of the matter is that Gypsies are living as minorities in countries that already have established cultural values and laws, and if they want to live there, they will need to do as other immigrants do and respect those laws and values. That does not mean that they have to give up their culture, change the dress habits, or anything like that. They just have to start being lawful citizens who contribute to a society instead of destroying it.
I do not think that their opportunities to succeed should be limited (as that would be counter productive), but I do think that their opportunities to be a bunch of criminal refuse should.

removed as potentially objectionable.

[Strike For The South]

removed. Let me just point out that A. You have no idea at all what you are talking about, as the situation of Blacks in America (most of whom were brought over as slaves) and the situation of Gypsies in Europe (who migrated Westward from India are completely different, and B. I was not referring to race, but culture. I know that you love to play the race card, but get a life.
The fact of the matter is that Gypsies are living as minorities in countries that already have established cultural values and laws, and if they want to live there, they will need to do as other immigrants do and respect those laws and values. That does not mean that they have to give up their culture, change the dress habits, or anything like that. They just have to start being lawful citizens who contribute to a society instead of destroying it.
I do not think that their opportunities to succeed should be limited (as that would be counter productive), but I do think that their opportunities to be a bunch of criminal refuse should.

I removed.

Yes yes, the tired old cry of "BUT THIS MINORITY GROUP IS DIFFERENT"

I'm sure however long you spent as an exchange student is some eastern european hovel supercedes the entire historical record of interaction between majority-minority population groups

[Fragony]

Yea Europe and undrepresented minority groups which span national borders have such a rich and tolerant history

Saying what, yeah it doesn't get any sicker than European history, but you should know that you are part of it after all it's in your very genes, an accumulating of centuries of mindless violence and pityless cruelty.

But it's still a bad idea though

[Strike For The South]

Saying what, yeah it doesn't get any sicker than European history, but you should know that you are part of it after all it's in your very genes, an accumulating of centuries of mindless violence and pityless cruelty.

But it's still a bad idea though

My genes? lol. My ansectors were quakers when they were kicked out of jolly old. Granted they then killed an uncountable number of natives but we're pretty sure they shot first.

[Fragony]

My genes? lol. My ansectors were quakers when they were kicked out of jolly old. Granted they then killed an uncountable number of natives but we're pretty sure they shot first.

K, nano's then. But it's really a problem, Belgium was nice enough to have the most rediculous immigration-laws in human history so it's their problem for a while, but I wouldn't take it too lightly overall.

[Strike For The South]

K, nano's then. But it's really a problem, Belgium was nice enough to have the most rediculous immigration-laws in human history so it's their problem for a while, but I wouldn't take it too lightly overall.

God forbid you try to reach out to the Gypsies

You did everything wrong with Jews, here is your chance to make it up 1 outta 2 aint bad

I mean srsly does no one look back 70 years and think "Wait, I've seen this episode before" or are people so wrapped up in xenophobia and there warped veiw of social mores that taking a deep breath and considering alternatives would mean the Gypsies win

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm sure however long you spent as an exchange student is some eastern european hovel supercedes the entire historical record of interaction between majority-minority population groups

Which reminds me of the movie Eurotrip, in which a few Americans briefly find themselves in Eastern Europe too. In Bratislava, the...uh...capital of Hungary:

[Louis VI the Fat]

You did everything wrong with Jews, here is your chance to make it up 1 outta 2 aint bad

There have been thousands of etnic and religious groups in Europe, no0t two.

They are either a) assimilated, b) strong enough to resist assimilation and maiontain a distinct identity, or c) place themselves outside of European civilisation so much they are impervious to assimilation.

'A' is a whole string of groups few have ever heard of because they, well, have assimilated. B and C roughly correspond with your two groups. [/fascism]

[Strike For The South]

There have been thousands of etnic and religious groups in Europe, no0t two.

They are either a) assimilated, b) strong enough to resist assimilation and maiontain a distinct identity, or c) place themselves outside of European civilisation so much they are impervious to assimilation.

'A' is a whole string of groups few have ever heard of because they, well, have assimilated. B and C roughly correspond with your two groups. [/fascism]

So the Jews are B while the Gypsies are C

I'm glad your arbitrary classification system puts them outside the realm of saving. Clearly this thread is over and there is nothing left to talk about.

So the same government who outlaws a song from an irrelevant 90s rapper (who plays a cop now on tv..weird) also takes a run at gypsies, you have mocked one of these things while giving the other a pass, granted you are holding your nose and lamenting the fact that if the gypsies had just been a bit more cooperative this could have been avoided but you are complicit none the less

Why the difference? Is it because the Gypsies are too icky of a topic to take on? Because reaching out to them would cause an introspective on how you do business?

The /facism could mean your joking

[Fragony]

God forbid you try to reach out to the Gypsies

Hey where do you think I spend my new years eve

[Strike For The South]

Hey where do you think I spend my new years eve

I have no idea you cryptic tulip

[Louis VI the Fat]

So the Jews are B while the Gypsies are C

I'm glad your arbitrary classification system puts them outside the realm of saving. Clearly this thread is over and there is nothing left to talk about.

So the same government who outlaws a song from an irrelevant 90s rapper (who plays a cop now on tv..weird) also takes a run at gypsies, you have mocked one of these things while giving the other a pass, granted you are holding your nose and lamenting the fact that if the gypsies had just been a bit more cooperative this could have been avoided but you are complicit none the less

Why the difference? Is it because the Gypsies are too icky of a topic to take on? Because reaching out to them would cause an introspective on how you do business?

The /facism could mean your joking

In America there are groups outside of mainstream society: Amish, native Americans in reservations, to some extent Mormons. Mormons are integrated and do well, Amish are not but do well too. Native Americans in reservations on the whole are poorly integrated, suffer from a whole host of social problems. They are probably the group most easily comparable with the gypsies in Europe.

Surely the solution is not to 'reach out to them'? How would that work? They place themselves outside of mainstream society if only for the very reason to preserve their identity.

[Fragony]

I have no idea you cryptic tulip

Well a Roma camp great fun

[Strike For The South]

In America there are groups outside of mainstream society: Amish, native Americans in reservations, to some extent Mormons. Mormons are integrated and do well, Amish are not but do well too. Native Americans in reservations on the whole are poorly integrated, suffer from a whole host of social problems. They are probably the group most easily comparable with the gypsies in Europe.

Surely the solution is not to 'reach out to them'? How would that work? They place themselves outside of mainstream society if only for the very reason to preserve their identity.

Ok if they would like to be vagabonds let them, if the commit a crime arresst them.

The wholesale deportation and marginalzation thing went out of style years ago.

Well a Roma camp great fun

And you came back unhamred. Unpossible

[HoreTore]

Do you know what Hore Tore? I am going to say something really unpopular, but nonetheless true. Most Gypsies who I saw when I was in Hungary were total trash. Everything that I have read about their culture reinforces that. They are not raised to take their place in society, but to stick to their ancient ways of living and to leech off of society. If they want to maintain their ancient practices, that is fine, BUT, they cannot do so at the cost of society at large. Personally, I think they need to take them all off of any government help, unless at least one person in their family has held a full time job in the last few years. I also think that they should undertake efforts to break up their communities, crack down on the Gypsy mafia, and try to get them integrated into society. They don't like it? They can go somewhere else. The country is Hungary, and you have to live like a Hungarian.
It is why I was not packing heat when I went over there, I respect their laws and customs, and if you do not, you should not be in their country. Plain and simple. Gypsies are not good Hungarian citizens, and that is the truth.

I am not surprised in the slightest though.

Oh, and the Roma have lived in Hungary for centuries.

[Vuk]

I am not surprised in the slightest though.

Oh, and the Roma have lived in Hungary for centuries.

So what? In all that time, they have not assimilated themselves into society or even attempted to be good citizens. Hungary has shown that it is good at assimilating people (Jassic people, Cumans, etc), but the Gypsies have not tried. It is not oppressive to expect someone to obey the laws of the country that everyone else is expected to obey.

@Strike: How do you reach out to the Gypsies? By giving them more privileges than everyone else? How would that be fair? The thing is Strike, that Gypsies have to decide if being Hungarian is important to them. If it is, then they will be good Hungarians, and if not...then they will keep doing what they are doing.

[HoreTore]

I don't feel like debating racism.

If you want to discuss the failures pf the Roma, might I suggest the stormfront forums?

[Vuk]

I don't feel like debating racism.

If you want to discuss the failures pf the Roma, might I suggest the stormfront forums?

Racism? You and Strike are the only ones talking about racism. It is the usual tactic of those who cannot support their position.

[Furunculus]

There have been thousands of etnic and religious groups in Europe, no0t two.

They are either a) assimilated, b) strong enough to resist assimilation and maiontain a distinct identity, or c) place themselves outside of European civilisation so much they are impervious to assimilation.

'A' is a whole string of groups few have ever heard of because they, well, have assimilated. B and C roughly correspond with your two groups. [/fascism]

good post louis, pretty much sums it up.

to add my thoughts in furtherance of the explanation, which you may or may not agree with.

from the english perspective:

while jews don't integrate nor too do they make demands of conformance from the rest of society, and are grudgingly accepted as an absolutely law-abiding group within wider society.
therefore great tolerance is shown.

while gypsies have limited numbers in Britain they do not integrate, and their marginalised lifestyle is not very economic, the combination of which leads to a perception of criminality among wider society, and thus a burden.
therefore less tolerance is shown.

muslims might have integrated very well, but were imported in such numbers into multi-cultural ghettoes that in the end they have not (in visibly large numbers), in addition to which those poorly integrated elements are percieved as a fount of criminality and terrorism, and worst of all; demanding conformance from the host population that constitutes wider society.
therefore the least tolerance is shown.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
it is that last point that is most telling on how the British receive their immigrant groups, for it boils down to a core attitude that demands non-interference:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mrs_Patrick_Campbell

"Does it really matter what these affectionate people do — so long as they don’t do it in the streets and frighten the horses!"

no group publicly calling for sharia law to be imposed on the rest of us will ever attract much affection in the British.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

and to truthfully state that i make every effort to be a tolerant person does not change the fact that i would have a decided preference on who lives next door to me:

1. western european/angloshere work migrant (here to work rather than to stay, no demands of integration made, broadly compatible in the first place)
2. indian hindu family immigrant (zero crime, perfect kids, will be hard-working, and makes few/no demands of wider society)
3. jewish family (zero crime, perfect kids, will be hard-working, and makes few/no demands of wider society)
4. commonwealth immigrant (broadly compatible culture resulting from shared history makes assimilation easy)
5. brit (could be a work-shy scrounger or a pillar of the community, but familiar and unlikely to murder me for sleeping with his daughter)
6.
7.
8.
9. gypsy family
10. the radicalised population of bradford

Q: is there an explicit generalisation above where i ignore the fact that the vast majority of Britain's muslim community is not radicalised, and basically a law-abiding and hardworking group who want nothing more than to earn a living and provide a future for their kids?
A: sure, but given that i don't get to choose my neighbours beforehand i will continue to discriminate.*

*

–verb (used without object)
1.
to note or observe a difference; distinguish accurately: to discriminate between things.
–verb (used with object)
3.
to make or constitute a distinction in or between; differentiate: a mark that discriminates the original from the copy.
4.
to note or distinguish as different: He can discriminate minute variations in tone.
–adjective
5.
marked by discrimination; making or evidencing nice distinctions: discriminate people; discriminate judgments.

[Drag0nUL]

So what? In all that time, they have not assimilated themselves into society or even attempted to be good citizens. Hungary has shown that it is good at assimilating people (Jassic people, Cumans, etc), but the Gypsies have not tried. It is not oppressive to expect someone to obey the laws of the country that everyone else is expected to obey.

I live in Romania and here we also have a singificant gipsy population.
I have nothing against gipsy as peope, but i do think their community is somewhat disruptive. Or at least what they are showing.

I know quite a few gypsies that integrated all right in the normal society.
They make an honest living and 'feel' no differently than any other human being.

My problem lies with gipsy communities that promote a certain way of life that's disruptive to the rest of the society:

-Many poor gypsies live in illegal 'villages' of makeshift shacks or ruined/abandoned buildings. Sometimes the police comes, kicks them out, they wait a bit, and they come back.


-Their family/clan ties, and the conflicts that arise from this. Here we don't have any kind of gang culture apart form gipsy clans and it's a bit shocking (in the bad way) to see 200 gypsies duking it out with axes and swords until the police comes(it's mostly for show though. I refuse to believe that 200 armed people can fight for real and end up with only 2-3 wounded).


-They have a distinct lack of respect (sometimes I even think they are unable to understand ) of the more abstract social norms, such as the cvic duty to respect the law. Most gypsies will respect the law only for fear of consequences, and will break it at leisure if they think they can avoid them.

I've witnessed several incidents with gypsies caught in the act of doing something either illegal or just unpleasant (moslty faking disablilities in order to beg) and wouldn't quit doing it unless directly threatened with reprisal (once it took a police officer taking out his gun and removing the safety for a gipsy begger that was travelling in a train without ticket, pretending to have crippled legs, to get off the train, on his own legs mind you).

[Vuk]

I live in Romania and here we also have a significant Gypsy population.
I have nothing against Gypsy as people, but i do think their community is somewhat disruptive. Or at least what they are showing.

I know quite a few gypsies that integrated all right in the normal society.
They make an honest living and 'feel' no differently than any other human being.

My problem lies with Gypsy communities that promote a certain way of life that's disruptive to the rest of the society:

-Many poor gypsies live in illegal 'villages' of makeshift shacks or ruined/abandoned buildings. Sometimes the police comes, kicks them out, they wait a bit, and they come back.


-Their family/clan ties, and the conflicts that arise from this. Here we don't have any kind of gang culture apart form gipsy clans and it's a bit shocking (in the bad way) to see 200 gypsies duking it out with axes and swords until the police comes(it's mostly for show though. I refuse to believe that 200 armed people can fight for real and end up with only 2-3 wounded).


-They have a distinct lack of respect (sometimes I even think they are unable to understand ) of the more abstract social norms, such as the civic duty to respect the law. Most gypsies will respect the law only for fear of consequences, and will break it at leisure if they think they can avoid them.

I've witnessed several incidents with gypsies caught in the act of doing something either illegal or just unpleasant (mostly faking disabilities in order to beg) and wouldn't quit doing it unless directly threatened with reprisal (once it took a police officer taking out his gun and removing the safety for a Gypsy beggar that was traveling in a train without ticket, pretending to have crippled legs, to get off the train, on his own legs mind you).

Yes, as I said, I knew a half Gypsy girl who I studies with in Szeged, and her and her family were good citizens and I had nothing against them. That was the only example that I saw of a well integrated Gypsy family though, and the wider Gypsy community was anything but integrated. The only major crime problem in Szeged is due to the Gypsy mafia, and their drug trade is well developed.

I have absolutely nothing against Gypsies as people, it is that 'Gypsy' way of life that refuses to obey the laws of society. No, I don't think Gypsies should be abused, oppressed, etc, but I do think that significant, targeted effort needs to be made to bring them into the larger fold of society. If they gave up that lawlessness, then people would start appreciating them for their cultural contributions, and their positive role in society.

[Strike For The South]

haha I love it

"My best friend is black how dare you accuse me"

I don't know why I'm surprised Europe has a long rich history of genocide and population displacement. Such a petty people, unwilling to look past their own prejudices

It should be rather telling when Sarkozy tries to kick the roma out the back door in what is supposedly the most socially tolerant nation on earth, what is really going on. It's all well and good until you upset the status quo, then you are ostracized and marginalized.

but I do think that significant, targeted effort needs to be made to bring them into the larger fold of society. If they gave up that lawlessness, then people would start appreciating them for their cultural contributions, and their positive role in society.

The good ol Vuk backtrack. The smell of victory is so sweet

[Vuk]

haha I love it

"My best friend is black how dare you accuse me"

I don't know why I'm surprised Europe has a long rich history of genocide and population displacement. Such a petty people, unwilling to look past their own prejudices

It should be rather telling when Sarkozy tries to kick the roma out the back door in what is supposedly the most socially tolerant nation on earth, what is really going on. It's all well and good until you upset the status quo, then you are ostracized and marginalized.



The good ol Vuk backtrack. The smell of victory is so sweet

Perhaps you would like to point out to me when I contradicted myself then, oh wise and knowing the one.
You just have to keep throwing around the race/racist card, don't you?
First of all, the girl was not my friend, I barely knew her. She was nice, and helped me find a cheap bike, but that is about as far as I ever had contact with her. I mentioned her not to show how tolerant I was toward Gypsies, but to point out that her and her family were the only example I saw in all those months of successful integration. Second of all, using race when talking about Gypsies is about as stupid as using it to talk about Muslims, considering that Gypsies used to be quite good at adopting people into their society, whatever genetics Gypsies had when they first came into Europe is probably much different than now. Must you always think of things in terms of 'racial identity'? Someone can dislike someone's culture without disliking their race (conservative southerners for instance, you seem to hate them). Just earlier you and Horetore were bashing the Magyar!
Quit throwing around your PC talking points and actually read what was posting. You have not once made any serious criticism of my argument; you just screamed "RACISM, NAZI, BABY MURDERER!"
Let me make this really simple for you. I will lay out several points, and if you feel so inclined to discuss this with me, I would be happy to hear your reply.

1. The way that a large portion of Gypsies live in Hungary is outside of the normal social order. Can we agree on that?
2. Gypsies not only often live outside of society, but do not respect the laws and institutions of Hungarian society and government? Can we agree on that one? Or do you not know?
3. When a social group lives outside of larger society and does not respect its laws and institutions, it becomes disruptive and potentially dangerous to society. Can we agree on this on? This would include everything from gun-toting, bomb-making, anti-government radicals in the US, to Gypsies in Hungary, to Militias in Sub-Saharan Africa. All very different beasts, but of the same category (described above). This would not include people living out of society, BUT respecting its laws. ie, Amish, American Indians on reserves, some Jewish communities, etc. Can we agree on that point?
4. When such a group exists, it needs to either start respecting the laws and customs of the country, or get out. If they do not agree with them, they can participate in the democratic process to change them, like everyone else who disagree with laws. If the law is enforced on everyone but them, you are discriminating against the rest of society? Can we agree on that one?
Now this one I sense is where the source of the conflict is:
5. In the case of Gypsies, they have in the past and continue to stick stubbornly to their ways of life, even when it conflicts with the laws of the Hungarian government. They deliberately segregate themselves from the rest of society, and live life in their own way, which produces a drain on society. The answer to the problem then is to give them the ultimatum to either start making progress toward integration by such and such time, or be forcibly integrated, or if they do not want that, then to leave. The lack of integration is what is allowing their lawlessness to flourish, and if you were to integrate them into society at large, you would take care of the problem of their lawlessness? I have a feeling that you are going to disagree with me here, so if you do, please do not just say that I am wrong, but tell me what you think causes such lawlessness and disrespect for law and custom amongst Gypsies, and give me your solution for it, as I have given you mine.

[Strike For The South]

If they break laws arrest them and give them their day in court. What is so hard about that? Labeling an entire group of people ostracizes them further

I don't care what they do, what is the "normal social order" ? You have not brought up any point other than "they are different and that makes people uncomfortable" All of the people you pointed out that "respect the laws" have all been viciously persecuted at one point or another in history because of THE EXACT SAME REASONS YOU ARE LAYING OUT FOR THE GYPSIES

Until you can point out to something concrete your posts are nothing more than xenophobic drivel which has infested humanity since we first realized the guys across the river are different

I am not promoting Gypsy lawlessness, I simply abhor systematic attempts by a majority government to further marginalize and demonize minority groups for the sake of promoting its own jingoism, Which they are doing because they have no idea how to govern and when you have a failing government you have a scapegoat.

Gypsies are ~2% of the population in Hungary SMFH

Maybe you can just sterlize them like the Czechs did

As for my solution? lol, Don't kill them? Let them be? If they break a law arrest them?

Can someone else tell him he's wrong? I don't think he'll listen to me. Maybe a short history of all the groups he just presented as nice and docile minority groups. I could give him nice picture books with all the forced assimaltion and ethnocide, of Jewish babies being ripped from there mothers arms and Amish farms being burned, all for the sake of "WELL THEY REPRESENT A DANGER" A 2% DANGER

The real danger here is the bloody government which is already qaushing expression and the ultimate expression is being a minority group

[Strike For The South]

And of course No one has brought up that:

There have been dozens maybe 000s of attacks on gypsies in the past year and not ONE perp has been caught
The Good Hungrians have formed a bloody malitia, because when someone is different than you, you kill them

But clearly the problem is with the gypsies

But there different so they brought it on themselves, if they had just been docile, if they had just acted more like ME

But then again Vuk never grew up with this so I guess I should give him a pass, If you don't know how these people operate then there fearmongering is quite seductive but I've known enough segragation era Southerners to know deep down once you peel back all the layers and all the bull pseudo science that for so many years was propagated as truth, you are left with nothing but good old fasioned hate

[HoreTore]

I don't believe blatant racism is worthy of a decent response.

[Furunculus]

lol, apparently if the EC demands changes to hungary's media laws then it will have an immediate impact on the media laws in Germany, France and the Netherlands who all have similar legal strictures:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/charl...arys_media_law

:D