Why Progressvism Has Failed

[Subotan]

aboluetely not!

paleo-conservatives = change is de-facto a bad thing to be worked against in the every instance
progressive-left = change is de-facto a good thing to be worked towards in every instance

somewhere inbetween lies common-sense.

I personally feel that common sense lies closer to the latter than the former, but I recognise that change isn't always a good thing. I'm perfectly happy with a lot of things about the UK at the minute, believe it or not - I think the NHS works fine, as does the monarchy, the devolution set-up with Scotland, etc.

far from it.

they push the country in the direction of europe, completely at odds with the wider electorates demands.

that is progressive beyond the point of good sense.

Hehe, as you know I have a totally contrary view. That said, the wider electorate doesn't really care that much - even in France, there's a society wide consensus that the elites push for Europe, and the public doesn't oppose it because it's not bothered :]

[Furunculus]

isn't bothered in the sense that we aren't having a revolution, or isn't bothered in the sense that a referendum if called wouldn't result in us backing away from europe and instead attaining a mandate to move closer?

think carefully before answering.........

i know [you] have a contrary opinion, what i am trying to establish is that you recognise that you are not representative of the plurality, or at least less so than you'd hope.

[Subotan]

I think there's elements of both. Europe certainly isn't a political issue in the same way that the economy, NHS, law'n'order, defence, the environment etc. all are. It's just not in the public conciousness. I think also if we had a referendum on the EU, and thereby a proper national debate (So talk about the EU isn't just about straight bananas, "barmy Brussels bureaucrats" and other such guff ), people would see the benefits of the EU in their daily lives, such as visa-free travel etc., as well as all the economic and political arguments. Britain is differenet from the rest of Europe in a way that France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Poland etc. are all not, but I think we could and will revel in our role as the Texas of Europe (I.e. more conservative, more independent-minded, a bit weird).

Also, I've noticed if you ask young people their opinion on their EU, if they have one, it's almost always positive. I know maybe two, three guys my age who are Eurosceptics, as opposed to at least fifteen who have positive feelings about it. I'm not talking about my friends at uni, but friends back home in Lancashire, most of whom aren't that political (Certainly not as big political nerds as I am :D ). I'm confident that over time as a society we will become more obviously Euro-friendly.

[Idaho]

The problem is that you have two sides:

The US people - 95% of the population
Economic power: Majority poor to medium wealth
Political power: Some can vote once every couple of years
Primary concern: A stable country, a job, decent education, healthcare

The capitalist elite - 5% of the population
Economic power: Own 90% of the wealth
Political power: Huge campaign contributions, armies of paid lobbyists, can afford to field their own choice of candidates/stand themselves, own newspapers, TV stations, etc
Primary concern: Maintaining their own power, becoming richer

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the words "shareholder", "lobbyist" or "corporation" appear in the US constitution.

[Furunculus]

I think there's elements of both. Europe certainly isn't a political issue in the same way that the economy, NHS, law'n'order, defence, the environment etc. all are. It's just not in the public conciousness. I think also if we had a referendum on the EU, and thereby a proper national debate (So talk about the EU isn't just about straight bananas, "barmy Brussels bureaucrats" and other such guff ), people would see the benefits of the EU in their daily lives, such as visa-free travel etc., as well as all the economic and political arguments. Britain is differenet from the rest of Europe in a way that France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Poland etc. are all not, but I think we could and will revel in our role as the Texas of Europe (I.e. more conservative, more independent-minded, a bit weird).

Also, I've noticed if you ask young people their opinion on their EU, if they have one, it's almost always positive. I know maybe two, three guys my age who are Eurosceptics, as opposed to at least fifteen who have positive feelings about it. I'm not talking about my friends at uni, but friends back home in Lancashire, most of whom aren't that political (Certainly not as big political nerds as I am :D ). I'm confident that over time as a society we will become more obviously Euro-friendly.

i don't want to pick because you have an absolutely sensible centre view:
"I personally feel that common sense lies closer to the latter than the former, but I recognise that change isn't always a good thing."
you merely exist to side of the centre, just as i do the other.

however, on europe, i will always return to my old staple; fair enough, lets have that referendum and see who's right........

[Subotan]

i know [you] have a contrary opinion, what i am trying to establish is that you recognise that you are not representative of the plurality, or at least less so than you'd hope.

I completely recognise that, and more importantly, I don't think my opinion is worth more than anyone else's. Sure, I may be more informed because I'm interested and I've researched it, but that doesn't mean that my vote in the referendum should be worth more or something. I also see that will never become as enthusiastic about the EU as, say, Germany, or Kosovo, but that's no bad thing. Like I said, I think we would be good at being the Texas of Europe - it would suit us, and suit the continentals.

I think such a referendum would be far preferable to submitting each treaty to referendum via the lock, as the latter will bee a ghastly thing to submit other Europeans to. A simple in-out referendum, none of this free-trade association guff (Which would submit us to the same rules and regulations made in Brussels, but without any democratic influence), held in a few years time would settle the Europe issue once and for all. I personally feel that Europe needs to slow down on the treaty changes for a few years and see how effective Lisbon is before deciding whether more reform is needed, and a few years of stability within Europe (Once the Eurozone crisis has been sorted out) would allow for a referendum.