Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
when i consider this sentence, in the light of the discussion here, i am forced to reflect on the last sentence in that recorded interview which goes something like as follows: "we do have extreme elements on each side of the divide, it's about time we thought seriously about how we got here."Originally Posted by Lemur
and while i see all the political sniping going on here, i can only feel sorry for the tragedy of what happened to a deeply likeable politician for NO good reason.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
If you read my posts you might see that I feel deeply that this tragedy is being overlooked in favor of political name-calling and finger-pointing.
It is political opportunism at its worst.
I am supporting neither side. My post was to illustrate to some degree what is already taking place.
The level of polarization has reached a point where both sides see the other as evil and some may feel justified in what ever they do to remove such threats.
It has to stop!
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
I think it's entirely possible that the right uses more violent rhetoric. There are trends of pacifism and anti-gun beliefs on the left, a liberal president in office, a general ability to get upset about dolphins being killed, etc.
But I just don't see it as an important statistic. What are we supposed to do with it? I have a general disdain for anyone who uses crappy rhetoric in politics period. I vastly prefer someone I disagree with who writes or speaks well to someone who I agree with in general who doesn't. So why should the question about which group does it more interest me?
This argument is great in theory. Obviously a phd's opinion is worth more than a non-phd all else being equal. But in practice I prefer to use the patended sasaki "does this guy know what he's talking about"-o-meter.
Because it's actually true that you can know that an argument advanced by someone with a phd is wrong without knowing much about the field. There are broad trends and biases that people fall prey to, there are theories that are too neat and tidy for the real world, theories that misuse words to reach a conclusion (gardner's theory of multiple intelligences comes to mind, he redefines intelligence).
I skimmed the argument about hitler so what I said has no relation to that.
About modern economics, you ought to read the book "The black swan" by nicholas taleb. I honestly can't imagine you not being interested.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Well a very good reason probably, idiotic rethoric. But I am deeply annoyed by the outrage after having seen how political assasination works (Fortuyn)
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
there will always be whack jobs in search of a 'justification'. did dutch society rise up and purge all the anti-pims from the face of the earth? no.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
It's a reaction away from thought or wider concerns. It's emphasis is all about re-cementing the values, culture and political pre-eminance of the richest sections of society.
"The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
This assassination thing is interesting in that it might prick the mcarthyite bubble that builds up in US society from time to time. A rightist undercurrent which bubbles over into freedom fries and the like. The idea that their is some imagined US that is the finished product, to be protected from all who would try and make any changes.
"The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
and yet..................... of the three major forces in british politics, one is only a century old and the other collapsed into irrelevance a nearly century ago.
only the consrvative and unionist party has a continuous history of political relevance, and thus electoral success, that spans somewhere between two and four centuries depending on how measure the timeline.
it doesn't matter whether it moves away from this, or towards that, nor too how many rich people it cements in positions of undeserved privilege, what matters is whether it continues to be representative of the enfranchised electorate that it can win elections.
your assertion that the Tories are intellectually moribund, and i quote:
"That's the right all over. Opportunist and intellectually moribund."
has VERY little to recommend it.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Seconded. A classy opponent is preferable to a jerkish ally.
We shall see. In politics, the counter-punch is usually stronger than the punch, so who exactly will win the blame-game food fight is an open question. Seems probable to me that both parties shall diminish themselves, if that's possible.
Haven't had a chance to watch it yet, what with work and children bogging down my life, but the general consensus seems to be that President 44 did a good job last night. Even NRO is saying nice things, which is sort of like Hamas giving grudging approval to Netanyahu. Anyway. For those with the time:
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Yes you would. But I might prefer the Tellos version of this meter, Fragony would definitely use his own revolutionary&magical version, and I'm sure Furunculus would cast an appraising eye on the configuration of my version and decide to buy himself a more conservative one preferring to save money for arms&armour upgrades.
And while we are on the subject of the Common-sense-Sasaki-o-meter: does Sasaki, in fact, have anything to recommend him over the Phd? Do you honestly feel that you know what you're talking about for any given subject? That is something to take into account when you pass “common sense” judgment. What if you are wrong? Not being an expert you will overestimate your own ability and lack the understanding needed to see and analyse your errors. You will be completely unable to fathom why your common sense fails when the expert can point out plenty of beginner's mistakes.
So I think you'll agree that this Sasaki version of the common-sense-o-meter doesn't work for people in the real world. Might be fine for your needs, but the broader market requires something else. Something more researched, and well informed. Perhaps the opinion of an expert?
Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 01-13-2011 at 17:45.
- Tellos Athenaios
CUF tool - XIDX - PACK tool - SD tool - EVT tool - EB Install Guide - How to track down loading CTD's - EB 1.1 Maps thread
“ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
I love the whole educated idoits thing
Yes you can disagree with a someone who has a PhD and of course these people can be wrong but don't assume for a second that there is not merit in what they are talking about, and unless you can back your asseritions with credible evidence...shut your damn mouth freaking whipersnappers
Once again, this man is such an outlier that while he may have been pushed over the edge by the vitrol he is the same kind of guy who yells at the McDs employee because the McRib is gone, pininng the blame just won't work
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
About Nazism being rightwing, nice try.
Of course, no one of any ideology wants to be associated with Hitler, and everyone wants to associate their opponents with Hitler. The Left has simple done a better job (coincidently, most people with PhD's are on the Left).
The core of Right Wing ideology (at least in terms of the USofA) is economic (aka. The Free Market). There is also social conservatism, which while important, always plays second fiddle to economic ideology when determining someone's 'Rightwingness'. How you or anyone else can classify Nationalism as Rightwing (at least in the sense of the USofA) is beyond me). Economically, Hitler was far Left. Socially, Hitler was polar Left. What the American Right stands for is the absolute freedom of the individual, and the limiting of the government to the point where it just has the power to perform a few, essential tasks. Hitler's social and economic policies contradicted these absolutely essential principles in every way imaginable. Hitler was just as Left wing as Stalin.
Both were dictators (something the Right does not believe in) who used their governments to control industry and the lives of their citizens (again, things the Right does not believe in), both emphasized the government over the people (which is the exact opposite of the Right). In Stalin's case he did so by preaching that the whole was greater than the individual, and Hitler did it with his fascist ideas. In the end, communism (socialism) and fascism were just different means to the same, Far Left end. To categorize it as Right Wing is simple to try to distance it from yourself and attack the Right (something that people with PhD next to their names looooove to do).
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Trying to ascribe Hitlers facism or Stalinism with the modern American definitions of right and left is perpertually stupid and is only used in a pinch to whip up the base
And LOL that "the Right" doesn't beilive in dictators. I can name off a few if you would like me to, Reagan was REAL close with a few of them
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Off-topic and Godwintastic, while equating everyone who disagrees with mass murderers! Well done!
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Strike, something I've been wondering about when you write idoits, is that a deliberate misspelling? (I ask because it happens to be a few English words strung together.)
- Tellos Athenaios
CUF tool - XIDX - PACK tool - SD tool - EVT tool - EB Install Guide - How to track down loading CTD's - EB 1.1 Maps thread
“ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Meh, My grammar here has been bad for years, I very ralery proofread posts here as I am a busy man with many obligations
Also I may or may not have undiagnosed dyslexia
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Tellos, there is tons of disagreement amongst those who have PhD's, and people with PhD's often make up their minds on matters considering way too little information. People with PhD's are useful for presenting evidence. It is smart to take their conclusions into account, but in the end, you are better off drawing your own conclusions based on the information that they find. Guess what? Those guys with PhD's are no different than anyone else in the world when it comes to wanting to prove a point. All too often they will seek out only material that supports their argument, twist words, and in extreme cases make up information to support their view points. If someone on an internet forum presents sourced, reliable information to you, and some bloke with a PhD does, you would be no better off automatically believing the conclusion on the information that the bloke with the PhD draws than that of the random guy on the forum. Both are going to be interested in affirming their own beliefs, which they usually hold before they even get their PhD, and is not founded on their academic research. You would be better off trying to find out their influences, reading the sources, further investigating, and drawing your own conclusions. The guy with the PhD is more likely to have better sourcing (which is a good thing), but his conclusion is no more likely to be correct. (which is what is important)
A PhD does mean something, but not that their conclusions are necessarily better than those of other or of the ones that you, yourself can draw. And trust me, I have known a loot of mud dumb professors. Two of my professors said that Hungarians were Slavs, one said that a Napoleonic era gun was just as likely (ie 50/50) to blow up in your face than not, one said that Charlemagne did not establish any schools during his reign (in answer to a student's question). I could go on, and on, and on. Point is that they are not supposed to be teaching if they have not done substantial research into an area, and yet I have had professors teach about areas that I had done much more research into, and areas that they frankly did not know crap about what they were speaking. ei a third grader level of knowledge, and wrong on many details.)
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
I love the smell of anti intellectualism in the morining
ya know MAO tried something like this in the great leap forward. THAT'S TOATTLY LEFT WING OF YOU.
RIGHT WINGERS WOULD NEVER EVER EVER DISAGREE WITH AN AUTHORITY FIGURE
Last edited by Strike For The South; 01-13-2011 at 18:03.
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
No, not at all. If you had read the posts of the last page Lemur, you would see that it was on topic. Funny then that you did not tell ACIN that.
And no, I am not saying that ALL people of the Left are Nazis, but that ALL Nazis were on the Left. There is a big difference.
@StrIKE And yet, what ACIN tried to do just a few pages ago was equate Nazism with the US Right. My point is that by US definition, but Stalin and Hitler were Far Left. Euroweiners can have whatever definitions they want, but when talking about American Right and Left, you must use the American definitions of Right and Left (because that is how Americans identify themselves).
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
It is not anti intellectual. I believe that everyone owes it to themselves to be an intellectual, and I place great value on it. You see, the problem is that many people posing as intellectuals are not. In fact, they are just politically polarized people who used the fancy methods they learn at their Universities to try to make their position sound as good as possible, and their opponents worse.
In fact, I would go as far as to say that the better a wordsmith/orator/writer a person is, the more cautious you should be when considering their arguments, as such a person in the worst case could simply be doing a good job at making a bad argument look good.
So please, quit throwing out the soundbytes and read my post.
EDIT: Actually Strike, Mao got a huge part of his support and some of his top men from Colleges in China. If it weren't for the College students, Mao would not have been successful.
Last edited by Vuk; 01-13-2011 at 18:09.
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Simply because I can sum up my feelings succintly does not mean they are sound bites, it simply means people read my posts instead of daunting walls of texts which invetabily fall into the "I'm not saying, I'm just saying"It is not anti intellectual. I believe that everyone owes it to themselves to be an intellectual, and I place great value on it. You see, the problem is that many people posing as intellectuals are not. In fact, they are just politically polarized people who used the fancy methods they learn at their Universities to try to make their position sound as good as possible, and their opponents worse.
In fact, I would go as far as to say that the better a wordsmith/orator/writer a person is, the more cautious you should be when considering their arguments, as such a person in the worst case could simply be doing a good job at making a bad argument look good.
So please, quit throwing out the soundbytes and read my post.
These people you talk about spend years at uni having there papers and methods being ripped apart. Do some of them have what is considered a left bent? Yes. Until you can argue with them after being put through the same amount of scholastic scrutiny I really don't want to hear it. And no I don't consider your unsubstantiated "gotcha" moments as anything more than someone with an agenda trying to prove a point.
America has always been wary if intelluctauls even in the best of times, which of course explains why our political discourse is 2 parts jingonism and 1 part xenophobia
Exactly, the students, the teachers were targeted. I don't want to have to hold your hand through this, I think you're big enough we can finally take the training wheels off.EDIT: Actually Strike, Mao got a huge part of his support and some of his top men from Colleges in China. If it weren't for the College students, Mao would not have been successful.
Last edited by Strike For The South; 01-13-2011 at 18:18.
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
"Anti-intellectualism is hostility towards and mistrust of intellect, intellectuals, and intellectual pursuits,"
of the six potential primary attributes here you can possibly ascribe two.
"usually expressed as the derision of education, philosophy, literature, art, and science, as impractical and contemptible."
and of the descriptive elements that reinforce the above you would struggle to ascribe any.
the charge of anti intellectualism based of the text above would difficult to prove........
Last edited by Furunculus; 01-13-2011 at 18:38.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Cool, an interesting thread got totally Godwined by the peanut gallery.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
So I'm playing a bit fast and loose with the defintions. I think Vuks deep seeded mistrust of "the PhDs" is certainly a form of anti intellectualism.
Oh geez,Cool, an interesting thread got totally Godwined by the peanut gallery.
Ok Louis I think it has been clearly established that the man was outlier. Now even if we agree that the heated rhectoric caused him to snap where should the line be drawn? I agree that crosshairs on a map are juvinelle and simply a way to pander to the LCD but I don't think banning this kind of speech will do anything to keep crazy people under wraps.
I certianly see where you are coming from, tense times make tense people and crazy tense people are bad buisness but how can we legislate this out? I feel the onus falls on the people of America to not be swayed by firebreathing preacher men posing as people who know what they are talking about. No amount of legislation can force you to turn off Beck
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
humh humh, yep
Of course it can be legislated...as I said before you do prefer a leftwing police state or a right wing police state?
Education: that which reveals to the wise,
and conceals from the stupid,
the vast limits of their knowledge.
Mark Twain
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
really..... go down the list of every fox host you can find. your world view is tainted if anyones is. you called furnunclus and told him on that yet you meander along in your blisssfully unaware life telling people you are completely unbiased and know absolutely the political climates of the major US parties. what world experience do you have? your a university student, one of the most left polarized institutions in the country. No one lives like a university student. I am too, but at least i admit i am biased to some extent and cannot speak and generalize about millions of americans.Palin is not as popular as everyone thinks she is a novelty and i know very few fellow conservatives who want her in office
Rush- is an old blowhard. no one gives a damn about him
Hannity- is really not the great devil everyone makes him out to be. the worst he does is latch onto tiny liberal foibles and not let go.....
Romney- mitt romney was governor of a very very liberal state. he is an intelligent and pretty reasonable man i havent heard much hate speech from him....
Huckabee- an affable idiot from (is it missouri)
Gingrich- old newt? yeah he uses inflammatory speech but i dont think one could call it hate speech inciting violence
Beck- really...... hes an imbecile and he isnt that hateful just stupid.
Napolitano- yeah if you think hes spouting hate speech your blind and deaf.
O Reilly- is a ego inflated jackass not a hate mongerer
Greta van Susteren- GRETA! lol i just lol'ed
Doocey- steve doocey this list gets worse and worse. the men is a pretty boy anchor with a reasonable intellect on morning fox news the equivalent to fox news comedy central.
Carlson- yeah not really
Bill Kristol- bwahahaha
Rove- the man is not hateful
Ingraham you mean ingrahm?
and Lou Dobbs bwahahaha
that list? utter bullshit.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Um neither?
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Should I start arguing that since Stalin have zero views in common with me, he is thus not a leftie, and as such must belong to the right...?
Nah, on second thought I'm still not insane....
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
Mr. Intellectual doesn't know what words mean? Couldn't be...
I do not have a mistrust of PhDs, I am merely not willing to give the argument of one with a PhD anymore consideration than that of someone without a PhD. Not having your love affair with professors is not the same as deeply mistrusting them. Maybe if you have read that 'daunting wall of text'... Forgive me that my thoughts cannot be summed up in four syllables...
"Daunting wall of text"? Are we being anti intellectual now Striko Baggins? I hate to say it Strike, but I think you are really guilty of just plain old not reading people's posts and then assuming you know what they said. (as you have proven in many other threads) If you have an aversion to reading, then why bother responding and making a fool out of yourself?
Tell me Strike, if having a PhD means not being wrong, then how is it that there are tons of disagreements amongst scholars, and often tens of different positions (with hundreds of sub-positions)? Assuming that EVERYONE is not equally as right, that means that all but one of these positions (and therefore thousands of professors) are wrong, despite all the scrutiny, yada, yada, yada. Do you know what all that scrutiny does? It makes them better able to form an argument, which is NOT the same thing as being right.
What that means is that just like in the real world, you get some people who know what they are talking about and some people who don't, but unlike larger society, they all know how to support their positions (no matter how right or wrong) well.
I read an excerpt from a really good book (written by a professor) last semester that said that most of the superstition, mystical beliefs, and false science in the "Dark Ages" was the result of a top-down effect, and originated in Universities. At times PhD bearing people have been the light of reason, and at other times they have been the dark side of humanity (I am thinking about Eugenics in the thirties and forties, as well as psychology in the forties and fifties). Just like other groups of people, they can be very right, and very wrong. It depends largely on who is funding/sponsoring/influencing them and their research, and where their allegiances lie. Just like other people, they are human, and are not free from corrupt influence.
I have nothing against professors, but I have something against the blind worship of them. I know many people with PhDs who I have a great deal of respect for, and consider amongst the smartest, most reasonable people whom I know. Unfortunately I know other who command far less respect.
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
Re: US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot, Six Die
No Hore Tore, you and ACIN pulled a Godwin and tried to tie Hitler to the Right. My point is that the American Right is NOT related to the European Right, as we have very different definitions. We were talking about the American Right, and if you look at the definitions of Right and Left in America, Hitler and Stalin were both far Left. You Euroweiners can call him whatever you want in you own little continent, but to start applying your definitions on a discussion of American Right and Left is total BS. They are completely different things.
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks