Allied Forces Thread

[Fisherking]

Yes, at this stage of the war they had advantages in being able to find us before we could find them. That doesn’t mean they can get into an attack position without us knowing they are there. If we find them we can make it very unpleasant for them.

The subs were also faster on the surface than the ships we have. But they need 5 hours on the surface to charge their batteries in order to operate submerged.

They can not fight us on the surface however, and submerged they are slower and can’t keep up with the convoy. It also depletes their batteries.

The greatest danger is for a night surface attack where they get among the convoy its self. During the day we can keep them far enough away, if we are diligent, that they can’t do much harm. At night it is radar and star shells that can help us most.

If I read the chart correctly the convoy we are escorting is SL 89. The article makes it sound like nothing happened prior to convoy HG 76 but if you look on convoy. net you see there were two ships lost west of Ireland from SL 89.

It could be that the escorts were exchanged off southern England but I don’t know, and it will depend on how the boss runs the game.


Something important to remember is that the merchant ships should be in a box formation and zig zag on the mean course. At twilight it is a good idea to make a radical course change to defeat any U-boats laying in ambush ahead of us.

Also remember that to launch a torpedo the U-boat has to work out a complex geometry problem using estimates of speed and course before they can fire. It will take them several minutes to complete, so altering course and speed frequently reduces the chance that their target solution will find a target.

We are not totally without long range attack weapons either. Subs don’t zigzag until an escort is above them. One of our ships carry torpedoes that can be set deep enough to target a sub at periscope depth. Those torpedoes are quiet enough that the sub can’t hear them coming until it is too late.

[King Kurt]

Some good technical stuff recently on the thread. The only thing I would disagree with is Fischerking's comment on U Boat speeds. I would have said that our vessels were a similar speed to a surfaced U Boat - about 15/16 knots. moreover a surfaced U Boat's speed is probably more affected by the sea state. If the sea is rough, their low freeboard would mean that full speed might mean the conning tower being swamped.

as for detection - we have 2 tricks up our sleeve - aircraft (from gib in this instance) and Enigma code messages

[Fisherking]

There is also Hf/Df but it might be more limited at this time in the war.


The Germans also used Fw 200 Condors to attack convoys located in the western reaches before they came under air cover from England.

Our ships have a max speed of 16 to 16.5 knots.

The Type VIIC U-boat has a top speed of 17.2 knots, Type IX U-boats were 18.2 knots.

That is not much advantage but enough to stay out of gun range on the surface but still shadow us.

U-boats would have even more advantage in heavy seas. All hand in the conning towers were tied in. They still lost men on some occasions though.


http://www.uboat.net/ops/wolfpacks/

here you can see the opposition and their locations by date. There are about 5 packs operating at this time and their locations.

The ones that concern us most are Breslau (6 boats) and possibly Schlagetot (9 boats). Two ships from my estimate of the convoy we are escorting were lost to U-82 west of Ireland.

The ship data is incomplete on ships and types so I can’t tell if we have any CAM ships with the convoy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAM_ship


Extent of Air patrols. 1941 is area A the dotted line.
http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/WH...-2RAF020b.html

[Franconicus]

I am still working on that Social Group Stuff. In the meantime, here an update:







Chapter 2 – 1. December

A commander of the Royal Navy stands on top of the Rock of Gibraltar and watches the clouds drifting across the sky. There must be bad weather over the Bay if Biscay, but here at Gibraltar it is still warm and dry.
Walker’s convoy finally reached its destination. The rest of the journey was uneventful. Although he should feel glad about it, Johnny Walker is in a bad mood. He still could not show his skills. Yes, he is hungry for a fight, although he knows that his mission is to protect the merchant ships, not to sink hostile ships. The men of his group were drilled during the trip and every man knows how to do his job. He knows that he can rely on them. But can he rely on himself? There are still many tactical issues, he should have changed. Although he is decided to use a more aggressive tactic against the enemy, his perception is rather vague. And he knows that he must have a clear plan before he goes into battle, a plan that every member of his group is drilled for. First of all, he must decide about the formation of the escort group. Maybe there should be different formations for day- and nighttime. During night, the ring has o be much tighter. But then, what has to be done, if a submarine is spotted? How many ships should chase it and which ones? What should be the orders for the remaining ships, which have to secure the convoy then? How long should the ships chase a submarine before they had to return? What should happen, if no submarine is spotted, bit an own ship is sunk? He has to discuss this with the commanders of the other ships. There has to be a decision right now, because he wants to use the time at Gibraltar to train his group, before the next mission begins.
Down there, Walker can see that the harbor is almost filled. Some of the ships came with him; they are waiting for the next convoy to sail to England. Others came from the Mediterranean Sea. Comrades report, that German submarines make this ocean a dangerous place, too. The wardroom is filed with stories and rumors. An officer told him stories about the hard fight in Africa; about the superiority of the German tanks and about a wonder gun, which grenades penetrates every British tank with high precision, even at an incredible distance. Yesterday, news came up that German tank divisions took Moscow. Stalin committed suicide and Russia is about to capitulate. Many officers were very pessimistic, how Britain could continue the war under such circumstances. Others expressed their hopes that this could make Roosevelt change his mind. They were sure that America would now join Britain. Roosevelt would most likely settle his differences with Japan and declare war on Germany.
Walker shakes his head. He decides to go to the commander’s office. There he hopes to get reliable news. But the commander of the base knows little about Russia or America, but he can give some information about the current situation in the Atlantic. Walker learns that the Germans have at least three boats at the western exit of the Med.. Walker was lucky that he passed them unseen. The commander also tells him about latest news from the Western Approaches Command.
“I know that we had high casualties, Walker, but I can tell you there is something going in the old Royal Navy. You will soon have better weapons. Like these new ash can throwers. I heard that they do not influence the ASDIC signal. Or the new RDF, which works similar as the ASDIC, but on the surface. You will be able to see the enemy even at night.”
“Well, have you seen these so-called RDF?”
“Sure! Some of our Swordfishes got one.”
“And, does it work!”
“Yes! Now we detect German submarines almost every day.”
Walker sighs: “I wished I had the new equipment, but if wished even more to lead a convoy through more dangerous waters.”
The commander of the base laughs: “Do not say this too loud. The German might want to make you wish come true. Oh, by the way, I almost forgot to tell you that I received a message from the WAC. We will soon send another convoy to Liverpool. I guess it will be a rather large one and the 36 Escort Group will guard it. The route goes along the coast of France, through the operation fields of the German submarines and bombers. Are these waters dangerous enough?”
“When do we set sails?”
“Do not hurry. You will have to wait for more ships. You will not set sail before mid of December. And once you are at Liverpool, you may also get the RDF and ash can throwers.”
“Oh, I really wished I had them now!”
“Do not worry, Walker, I have something brand-new for you, another innovation, almost as good as the RDF. It is called “snowflake”. A new kind of flare that turns night into day. With that you can chase submarines even at night.”
“How many can you give me?”
“I have enough to equip your ships as well as the merchant ships.”
“Do you have any details about the enemy?”
“Well, Walker, as I already told you, the enemy has some boats right out there. They will detect you soon enough. If you manage to pass them unseen, you come into the range of the German bombers. They will find you. Then you will cross the marching routes of the complete German submarine fleet. Maybe you will even meet some heavy cruisers or battle ships. I bet you will have your fun.”
“Will I get air support?”
“I have air patrols out there and they will keep an eye on you as long as you are in range. Then you will be all alone, until you reach the coast of England.”

It is time to drill your group and discuss the new route. You have time until 1. Feb.!

[Fisherking]

Situation Report:


32 ships sailing with Convoy HG 76 (14 to 30 Dec 1941)
http://www.warsailors.com/convoys/hg76.html

HG 76 with escorts ( with arrival and departure dates) some dates due to damage or sinking
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/hg/index.html

The battle from the German perspective.
http://www.uboat.net/ops/convoys/bat...m?convoy=HG-76

Suspected Enemy Forces
http://www.uboat.net/ops/wolfpacks/23.html

One ship in the convoy is a CAM ship.

Suggestions: Convoy in box formation 5 ship abreast. Convoy Commodore third ship center rank in line.

Ships capable of air launch are in the last tier of the convoy in the center. This allows them to change direction to launch aircraft and rejoin the convoy in short order.

All ships lacking sonar go into the convoy and do not operate independently.

Single ships do not chase subs. Escort is to operate in teams of two excepting daylight scout ship to work ahead of the convoy. At night that ship will join with the trailing team of the escort.

At night escorts should, weather permitting, close to within visual range of the convoy, but not closer than 500m. Daylight interval not more than 3 miles on the flanks or lead positions. Trailing escorts maintain visual contact with the convoy.

In case of night attack Snowflakes will be used to illuminate the suspected direction of attack, how ever merchant vessels will request permission prior to firing any illumination and only fire when given permission. Possible contacts to be reported to the Escort Commander.

Scout ship mission: To provide early warning of submarines and discourage them from closing from the front on the convoy.


Further suggestions or discussions?

[Franconicus]

I hope that you your discussion is well ans that you do not forget the deadline!!

By the way, I built a group for the allies team. Maybe you could test it?

[King Kurt]

1,000th post - and where better than on my old friend Franconius's latest IH

I think we have our tactics right as per Fischerking's post, but we have to consider the route. Our departure from Gib will be noted by agents in Spain so I would suggest we throw them off the scent by going South or South West until well out of sight of land and then come round to North West to put us a minimum of say 200 miles off the Spanish coast before heading for Liverpool. What do you all think?

[Peasant Phill]

as for detection - we have 2 tricks up our sleeve - aircraft (from gib in this instance) and Enigma code messages

I'm aware of these but those can't be considered as 'aces'. I doubt we will be able to get aircraft reconnaissance our entire route. I will be incredibly thankful if we can get air support close to Gibraltar.
Secondly, if enigma messages are flying around about our position, than we lost our most valuable advantage already. Besides, by the time the messages are decoded and relayed to us, the wolfpack could've already assembled.

[Strike For The South]

I like the fact we are playing things close to the vest, with the technoligical disadvantge we are at we can't afford anything flashy right now, and while it is true we planes aren't they notuiorsly bad at catching subs?

I say wait until the Germans make a mistake, remember they have to come after us