Allied Forces Thread

[Franconicus]

Registered players of the allied team:

Sarmatian
RabidGibbon
Peasant Phill
Strike for the South
Lord Winter
King Kurt
Ignoramus
Fisherking

All others please stay outside until you have signed!

[Franconicus]

Chapter 1 – autumn 1941

A small tanker convoy is sailing northwards along the western coast of Africa. It is escorted by the 36 Escort Group, consisting of two sloops and seven corvettes. On deck of the Bittern-class sloop Stork stand the leader of the convoy, 45 years old Frederic John Walker. Although he watches the sea, the convoy is outside of the usual hunting grounds of the German submarines and out of the range of the German air force. And so his thoughts begin to wander and he starts to reflect his career.

He served in the Royal Navy since 1914. Twenty-seven long years! When the Second World War began, in 1939, his career seemed at dead end. Still a Commander, he had been ignored for promotion to captain and indeed had been scheduled for early retirement. He gained a reprieve, however, due to the commencement of war and in 1940 was appointed as Operations Staff Officer to Vice-Admiral Sir Bertram Ramsay. Even so, he still had not been given a command, despite expertise in anti-submarine warfare that would no doubt be indispensable in the Battle of the Atlantic. During the Dunkirk evacuations he was Mentioned in Despatches for his work during the evacuation.

Walker finally received a command in October 1941, taking control of the 36th Escort Group, based in Liverpool, home of Western Approaches Command. The group is used to escort convoys to and from Gibraltar. So far, the duty has been uneventful.

During the wars, Walker was trained as an expert in Anti-Submarine Warfare. He studied the ability and tactics of the German submarines. Unlike others, he was not taken by surprise when the German boats attacked the British supply routes very effectively in 1939. The British did everything to improve the defense. The introduced the convoy system, did everything to increase the number and range of the escorts, they built bases on Iceland, which was then handed to the USA. American ships began to escort convoys in the Northern Atlantic and it was only a question of time when the US would enter the war completely. During the first six months the escorts have been able to push back the submarines, and the casualties decreased.

However, Walker knows that the battle is not won. The Germans have a huge program to build new submarines and soon their number will increase tremendously. From their bases at France they will be able to send their ships into the wideness of the Atlantic Ocean. Britain can only win the fight, if the escorts manage not only to push back the submarines, but to sink them.

Walker looks northwards. Behind the horizon there is Gibraltar, the destination of this convoy. The Germans are sending submarines in the Mediterranean Sea and those are passing Gibraltar. The escort will have to be alert when they near Gibraltar. But they still have time and Walker is determined to use this time to train the escort group.


Task 1: Please discus how you want to act as a team, esp. how you will come to an agreement about strategy and how to make decisions.
Task 2: Decide what maneuvers the escort group has to practice. What is it supposed to do after catching sight of a submarine, attack of an aircraft, sinking of a ship etc.?
Task 3: Get familiar with the current antisubmarine equipment.

Deadline: 20.January!

[Peasant Phill]

I assume we stay out of each others thread. Is there a way to enforce or are both thread starts identical?
Not that I'm accusing anybody but curiosity and competitive drive are a major part of the human nature.


Tasks: Do we discuss the tasks here or are we using a more private medium?

[Lord Winter]

We could always use a quick topic if needed. As for the actual decision making process do we want to vote on the different proposals made in the thread in the last days before the deadlines?

[King Kurt]

I think we should just do everything on the thread and trust to the others that they will not "cheat" As to the aproach, we should debate the actions listed and come to an agreement - by a vote if necessary.
i am off to do some research and will post some thoughts soon.

[Peasant Phill]

Fair enough. As long as everybody is able to post suggestions/ideas before the voting round. Decisions could be made too quick when people vote before hearing all the possibilities.

[King Kurt]

Some thoughts on our ships and weapons.
Our flag is on the sloop HMS Stork - a Bitterne class sloop

She is a typical convoy escort sloop. She is armed with 6 (3x2) dual purpose 4 inch guns and 4 .5 machine guns. the guns had a HACS fire control system to assist with engaging aircraft. She also carried depth charges for anti submarine work. Sloops wer not fast ships and she is only capable of about 19 knots. However she does have a good endurance. For detection of submarines she would have hydrophones and ASDIC. She probably also has a type 271 radar set which is a crude, early radar set, but it was sucessful in finding U Boats on the surface or even their periscopes. Finaly she would be a good sea boat.
Our other sloop is HMS Deptford - a Grimsby class sloop. Similar to HMS Stork, except she has 4 (4x1) 4 inch guns instead of 6.
Our corvettes are probably Flower class. They are similar to Stork except, being smaller they do not have the sophisticated fire control system.
Our other asset is that being near to Gib, we can call on their aircraft to assist us, mainly in the form of patrols.

So we have a fleet of similar ships - main weapons of guns and depth charges. We are not greyhounds of the sea, but we all have a top speed of 18- 19 knots. the secret of defeating the enemy will be our ability of working together and being aggressive. We must actively attack any U boat or plane we become aware of. This must be done as soon as contact is made and could involve leaving the convoy without close support.
That will do for today - I will suggest some drills/ practices tomorrow.

Remember our main aim should be to seek out Warmann and sink him without trace!!!!

[Lord Winter]

So we have a fleet of similar ships - main weapons of guns and depth charges. We are not greyhounds of the sea, but we all have a top speed of 18- 19 knots. the secret of defeating the enemy will be our ability of working together and being aggressive. We must actively attack any U boat or plane we become aware of. This must be done as soon as contact is made and could involve leaving the convoy without close support.
That will do for today - I will suggest some drills/ practices tomorrow.

Isn't wolfpack strategy based off the assumption that we'll go after the initial sub leaving our escorts open to attack? Perhaps it would be wise to lead some escort behind?

[King Kurt]

wolfpacks were about concentration of forces as opposed to working together - attacks were still usually by individual boats. The aggressive tactics are about sinking U boats as opposed to defensively driving them away. If we sink enough U boats then Doenitz would call off the pack due to losses. Our commander is England's top anti submarine man and these are his tactics - a search on him or the groupp will tell you more.

Also the tactics should be about concentrating a force of say 3 to 4 escorts ( those nearest the threat) while the remaining escorts protect the convoy. Also any attacks likely to take us away from the convoy will be during the day as sub detection at night is all short range - ASDIC, radar or visual - so if we do go after a sub some way away from the convoy it will be in the day. Also the U boat when submerged is very slow - about 8 knots max - while it is close to our top speed when surfaced. So by attacking a sub and getting it to dive, we can get the convoy away from it if we keep it down for a few hours. Also, by keeping it submerged and under depth charge attack, we may well get her to surface due to damage or lack of air.

A final note - Franc - I notice that the first of the Bitterne class frigates - HMS Bitterne - was built in J S Whites yard in Cowes, Isle of Wight - about 3 miles from where I am sitting now!!! Sadly she was sunk in 1940 as part of the Norway campaign, so she can't be part of our little tale.

[Peasant Phill]

Here's my take on things (with limited research and more common sense)

1. Our mission is not to win the battle against U-boats but to safely get our tankers to Gibraltar. As such our first concern should be the safety of our convoy. In other words evasion is preferable to engagement even if this means 1 less u-boat to worry about.

2. Considering the risk of enemy contact (and the fact that this is a game so conflict will be inevitable at some point) we should prepare for actively defend ourselves against U-boats. I do agree that aggressive action should be taken the moment of detection for no other reason than to chase off/destroy the U-boat before the wolf pack can assemble. In order to do so I would propose to specialize the tasks of our escorts. While most should be used to screen and detect, a small group should be at the ready to intercept at a moments notice. In doing so hopefully engaging the U-boat in a vulnerable position.

[RabidGibbon]

I agree with King Kurt & Peasant Phill's second point - simply surrounding the convoy with escorts won't be as effective as having a striking force that actively tries to break up attacks. For example we might want to 'tail' the convoy, one or two escorts a dozen or so miles behind us might prove an unpleasent surprise to any U-boats chasing us on the surface. As a counterpoint, in the world of metagaming - our opponnents are probably now discussing how to be very clever and lure the escorts away with all sorts of tricks.

In terms of weapon use - Asdic is blind beneath us ie: when we use rear dropped depth charges. Depth charge throwers (Hurling charges over the side or front of a ship) were being introduced round about now - do we have any? If not should we consider pairing our escorts up - that way one could play spotter signalling to the other designated attack boat.

On Peasent Phils first point - unless this an urgently required cargo (Warships waiting to sortie at Gib need this fuel yesterday) then strategically I suspect 1 merchant for 1 U-boat works in our favour. If the convoy consists of a dozen ships and we lose them all, but sink a dozen U-boats in the process then this might count as a victory.

Regarding naming ships - In a display of supreme egotisim I think we should call them the following:

HMS Sarmatian
HMS RabidGibbon
HMS Peasant Phill
HMS Strike for the South
HMS Lord Winter
HMS King Kurt
HMS Ignoramus
HMS Next player to join
HMS And the guy after him

Also regarding Frankys task 1 my vote is all decisions should be decided by a simple vote - aye or nay - majority wins.

[King Kurt]

Do we have broad agreement here? Cretae an active, agressive force to respond to any attack - to be created by nearest forces. We should practice all weapon drills and seamanship to form up the reaction forces. These should be done often. We should also practice reactions - like getting up to full speed ASAP. We should also draw up a response to an attack - which ship would help any survivors for example. It was standard practice for the last ship in a convoy line to be designated rescue ship to help any torpedoed ship in front of it in its line. Finally we should establish a collection of signals - flags, lights, flares etc to signal any action.

[Peasant Phill]

As far as I'm concerned we're more or less in agreement.

[Strike For The South]

I aplogize for joining the fray late, the new semester posed some unforseeable complications

Isn't wolfpack strategy based off the assumption that we'll go after the initial sub leaving our escorts open to attack? Perhaps it would be wise to lead some escort behind?

This was my first impression as well I would almost rather wait for them to come to us rather than the other way around, however King Kurt and Phil seem to be own the ball and I am more than willing to acquiesce to their suggestion

[Ignoramus]

Captain Ignoramus reporting for duty!

[Peasant Phill]

I aplogize for joining the fray late, the new semester posed some unforseeable complications

This was my first impression as well I would almost rather wait for them to come to us rather than the other way around, however King Kurt and Phil seem to be own the ball and I am more than willing to acquiesce to their suggestion

Not to worry about 'coming late'. We're just preparing at the moment. There are no tough decisions to make just yet.

I didn't advocate the use of hunter-groups and I don't believe King Kurt was either. It's more an aggressive reaction once a U-boat is spotted near our convoy (without neglecting to escort the convoy as well). Besides, there will be enough time to discuss this further once this mission really gets going. BUT as a general rule, King Kurt is mostly right about naval tactics.

[Franconicus]

Reinforcements arrived: Fisherking joined the team!

[Fisherking]

Anyone have a sit-rep for me?

[King Kurt]

I have been chatting with Fischerking and we have a variation on our general tatics. It is to put one of our sloops - not the Stork - about 10 miles in front of the convoy to passively search for subs. This would be during daylight hours only. this forward picket would search for subs visually and with hydrophones. It would return to the convoy escort for the hours of darkness, but would attack any U boat it found. At best it would sink them, at worst drive them underwater, making it difficult for the sub to attack the convoy due to its slow speed underwater.

What do you think?

[Peasant Phill]

The U-boats will most likely be deployed in a straight line, like a net and converge when one of them sees anything. It's logical and a historical tactic. British research found that many smaller convoys were more vulnerable to this tactic than 1 big one. Being hard to find is our greatest advantage. By essentially making two groups, we just doubled our chances at being spotted. Is doubling the risk of being spotted worth the advantage of possibly sinking 1 U-boat? Is driving off 1 U-boat worth alerting every enemy vessel in the vicinity that at least one of our ships was there?
I know I'm being cautious here but I still see ourselves foremost as escorts/protectors. I only see a use for this tactic when we know they are somewhere in front of us and we need to find a way to avoid them, in other words when we are very close to Gibraltar and they have search a smaller area.

How far is our detection-radius compared to theirs? I know our spotters have a better and wider view by day and our technology is better than theirs but how does this translate in practice? Can we surprise them without breaking up our convoy?

Also, are we going anywhere near the mid-Atlantic gap?

[Fisherking]

Here is the advantage. The lead escort plays leapfrog with the convoy staying far enough a head to use passive sonar...which means rushing a head and then very slow.
If we use active pinging before we see the subs it give away our location.
The subs will pick up the sound of the convoy much quicker than that of a single ship and see the smoke before we see the sub if we don’t have something forward.

The lead ship is listening for submerged subs and looking on the surface and as an advanced radar picket. It is more advance warning than hunter and it only works during the day.

Subs can pick up a convoy by sound and hone in from about 20 miles. The preferred location would be in front of us. They won’t expect us to use passive sonar and they can not lay still in the water.

Does that sound riskier than holding positions and doing nothing?

No gap we go from here to England.

[Sarmatian]

Sorry guys, thought this was going to be a bit broader IH. I don't have the knowledge about such specific issue and technology and don't have the time to learn now. I'll have to withdraw from the game...

[Peasant Phill]

Sorry guys, thought this was going to be a bit broader IH. I don't have the knowledge about such specific issue and technology and don't have the time to learn now. I'll have to withdraw from the game...

I don't have the specific knowledge either. Just read a few wiki articles now and then and perhaps a few interesting websites. I can't say I have read much on this subject. Common sense and the inclination to ask questions is all it takes to be a worthwhile contributer as far as I'm concerned.

Subs can pick up a convoy by sound and hone in from about 20 miles. The preferred location would be in front of us. They won’t expect us to use passive sonar and they can not lay still in the water.

Unsurprisingly, after some further thought the plan appears to be sound. If subs can detect us from 20 miles away, from how far could we detect them?

[Fisherking]

By eye- maybe 12 mi.

By radar- in theory about 24 nautical mi (but subs are low in the water and choppy seas can hide them almost all together. Under normal conditions 1941, 6 to 10 N.mi.

Passive sonar- sub on surface using engines about 12 N. miles, submerged on electric motors but not silent running 3 to 5 nautical mi. It can tell direction but not range. Active sonar is needed to determine range.

These are only rough figures and conditions could make it much shorter ranges.

References that may help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_Es...8Royal_Navy%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...2%80%931945%29
http://www.uboat.net/index.html
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/index.html

As to knowledge base; I know a lot more about subs than I do about escorts so don’t feel so alone.

[Peasant Phill]

In other words, they can 'see' us from farther out than we can. I was under the impression that we had the better equipment. This makes it a lot more complicated.

[Fisherking]

Yes, at this stage of the war they had advantages in being able to find us before we could find them. That doesn’t mean they can get into an attack position without us knowing they are there. If we find them we can make it very unpleasant for them.

The subs were also faster on the surface than the ships we have. But they need 5 hours on the surface to charge their batteries in order to operate submerged.

They can not fight us on the surface however, and submerged they are slower and can’t keep up with the convoy. It also depletes their batteries.

The greatest danger is for a night surface attack where they get among the convoy its self. During the day we can keep them far enough away, if we are diligent, that they can’t do much harm. At night it is radar and star shells that can help us most.

If I read the chart correctly the convoy we are escorting is SL 89. The article makes it sound like nothing happened prior to convoy HG 76 but if you look on convoy. net you see there were two ships lost west of Ireland from SL 89.

It could be that the escorts were exchanged off southern England but I don’t know, and it will depend on how the boss runs the game.


Something important to remember is that the merchant ships should be in a box formation and zig zag on the mean course. At twilight it is a good idea to make a radical course change to defeat any U-boats laying in ambush ahead of us.

Also remember that to launch a torpedo the U-boat has to work out a complex geometry problem using estimates of speed and course before they can fire. It will take them several minutes to complete, so altering course and speed frequently reduces the chance that their target solution will find a target.

We are not totally without long range attack weapons either. Subs don’t zigzag until an escort is above them. One of our ships carry torpedoes that can be set deep enough to target a sub at periscope depth. Those torpedoes are quiet enough that the sub can’t hear them coming until it is too late.

[King Kurt]

Some good technical stuff recently on the thread. The only thing I would disagree with is Fischerking's comment on U Boat speeds. I would have said that our vessels were a similar speed to a surfaced U Boat - about 15/16 knots. moreover a surfaced U Boat's speed is probably more affected by the sea state. If the sea is rough, their low freeboard would mean that full speed might mean the conning tower being swamped.

as for detection - we have 2 tricks up our sleeve - aircraft (from gib in this instance) and Enigma code messages

[Fisherking]

There is also Hf/Df but it might be more limited at this time in the war.


The Germans also used Fw 200 Condors to attack convoys located in the western reaches before they came under air cover from England.

Our ships have a max speed of 16 to 16.5 knots.

The Type VIIC U-boat has a top speed of 17.2 knots, Type IX U-boats were 18.2 knots.

That is not much advantage but enough to stay out of gun range on the surface but still shadow us.

U-boats would have even more advantage in heavy seas. All hand in the conning towers were tied in. They still lost men on some occasions though.


http://www.uboat.net/ops/wolfpacks/

here you can see the opposition and their locations by date. There are about 5 packs operating at this time and their locations.

The ones that concern us most are Breslau (6 boats) and possibly Schlagetot (9 boats). Two ships from my estimate of the convoy we are escorting were lost to U-82 west of Ireland.

The ship data is incomplete on ships and types so I can’t tell if we have any CAM ships with the convoy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAM_ship


Extent of Air patrols. 1941 is area A the dotted line.
http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/WH...-2RAF020b.html

[Franconicus]

I am still working on that Social Group Stuff. In the meantime, here an update:







Chapter 2 – 1. December

A commander of the Royal Navy stands on top of the Rock of Gibraltar and watches the clouds drifting across the sky. There must be bad weather over the Bay if Biscay, but here at Gibraltar it is still warm and dry.
Walker’s convoy finally reached its destination. The rest of the journey was uneventful. Although he should feel glad about it, Johnny Walker is in a bad mood. He still could not show his skills. Yes, he is hungry for a fight, although he knows that his mission is to protect the merchant ships, not to sink hostile ships. The men of his group were drilled during the trip and every man knows how to do his job. He knows that he can rely on them. But can he rely on himself? There are still many tactical issues, he should have changed. Although he is decided to use a more aggressive tactic against the enemy, his perception is rather vague. And he knows that he must have a clear plan before he goes into battle, a plan that every member of his group is drilled for. First of all, he must decide about the formation of the escort group. Maybe there should be different formations for day- and nighttime. During night, the ring has o be much tighter. But then, what has to be done, if a submarine is spotted? How many ships should chase it and which ones? What should be the orders for the remaining ships, which have to secure the convoy then? How long should the ships chase a submarine before they had to return? What should happen, if no submarine is spotted, bit an own ship is sunk? He has to discuss this with the commanders of the other ships. There has to be a decision right now, because he wants to use the time at Gibraltar to train his group, before the next mission begins.
Down there, Walker can see that the harbor is almost filled. Some of the ships came with him; they are waiting for the next convoy to sail to England. Others came from the Mediterranean Sea. Comrades report, that German submarines make this ocean a dangerous place, too. The wardroom is filed with stories and rumors. An officer told him stories about the hard fight in Africa; about the superiority of the German tanks and about a wonder gun, which grenades penetrates every British tank with high precision, even at an incredible distance. Yesterday, news came up that German tank divisions took Moscow. Stalin committed suicide and Russia is about to capitulate. Many officers were very pessimistic, how Britain could continue the war under such circumstances. Others expressed their hopes that this could make Roosevelt change his mind. They were sure that America would now join Britain. Roosevelt would most likely settle his differences with Japan and declare war on Germany.
Walker shakes his head. He decides to go to the commander’s office. There he hopes to get reliable news. But the commander of the base knows little about Russia or America, but he can give some information about the current situation in the Atlantic. Walker learns that the Germans have at least three boats at the western exit of the Med.. Walker was lucky that he passed them unseen. The commander also tells him about latest news from the Western Approaches Command.
“I know that we had high casualties, Walker, but I can tell you there is something going in the old Royal Navy. You will soon have better weapons. Like these new ash can throwers. I heard that they do not influence the ASDIC signal. Or the new RDF, which works similar as the ASDIC, but on the surface. You will be able to see the enemy even at night.”
“Well, have you seen these so-called RDF?”
“Sure! Some of our Swordfishes got one.”
“And, does it work!”
“Yes! Now we detect German submarines almost every day.”
Walker sighs: “I wished I had the new equipment, but if wished even more to lead a convoy through more dangerous waters.”
The commander of the base laughs: “Do not say this too loud. The German might want to make you wish come true. Oh, by the way, I almost forgot to tell you that I received a message from the WAC. We will soon send another convoy to Liverpool. I guess it will be a rather large one and the 36 Escort Group will guard it. The route goes along the coast of France, through the operation fields of the German submarines and bombers. Are these waters dangerous enough?”
“When do we set sails?”
“Do not hurry. You will have to wait for more ships. You will not set sail before mid of December. And once you are at Liverpool, you may also get the RDF and ash can throwers.”
“Oh, I really wished I had them now!”
“Do not worry, Walker, I have something brand-new for you, another innovation, almost as good as the RDF. It is called “snowflake”. A new kind of flare that turns night into day. With that you can chase submarines even at night.”
“How many can you give me?”
“I have enough to equip your ships as well as the merchant ships.”
“Do you have any details about the enemy?”
“Well, Walker, as I already told you, the enemy has some boats right out there. They will detect you soon enough. If you manage to pass them unseen, you come into the range of the German bombers. They will find you. Then you will cross the marching routes of the complete German submarine fleet. Maybe you will even meet some heavy cruisers or battle ships. I bet you will have your fun.”
“Will I get air support?”
“I have air patrols out there and they will keep an eye on you as long as you are in range. Then you will be all alone, until you reach the coast of England.”

It is time to drill your group and discuss the new route. You have time until 1. Feb.!

[Fisherking]

Situation Report:


32 ships sailing with Convoy HG 76 (14 to 30 Dec 1941)
http://www.warsailors.com/convoys/hg76.html

HG 76 with escorts ( with arrival and departure dates) some dates due to damage or sinking
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/hg/index.html

The battle from the German perspective.
http://www.uboat.net/ops/convoys/bat...m?convoy=HG-76

Suspected Enemy Forces
http://www.uboat.net/ops/wolfpacks/23.html

One ship in the convoy is a CAM ship.

Suggestions: Convoy in box formation 5 ship abreast. Convoy Commodore third ship center rank in line.

Ships capable of air launch are in the last tier of the convoy in the center. This allows them to change direction to launch aircraft and rejoin the convoy in short order.

All ships lacking sonar go into the convoy and do not operate independently.

Single ships do not chase subs. Escort is to operate in teams of two excepting daylight scout ship to work ahead of the convoy. At night that ship will join with the trailing team of the escort.

At night escorts should, weather permitting, close to within visual range of the convoy, but not closer than 500m. Daylight interval not more than 3 miles on the flanks or lead positions. Trailing escorts maintain visual contact with the convoy.

In case of night attack Snowflakes will be used to illuminate the suspected direction of attack, how ever merchant vessels will request permission prior to firing any illumination and only fire when given permission. Possible contacts to be reported to the Escort Commander.

Scout ship mission: To provide early warning of submarines and discourage them from closing from the front on the convoy.


Further suggestions or discussions?