Factions You Could Never Figure Out

[Strike For The South]

There are countless threads on our favorite factions but what about those that are our not so favorite? The ones that lead to the pulling of hair, slamming the head on the desk, and eventually starting an early era Byz game because you forget what a winning army and 6 star general looked like

For me it was always Egypt and the Almhoads. Never could win with either of them

[Louis VI the Fat]

I love Egypt and the Almohads. They forced me to adjust my playing style.


Me I just can't get used to the HRE. I hate the starting position, that big black mess right in the middle. It takes forever to move your armies around.

[gollum]

The Almohads are slow starters, but if you play your cards right and build up armies and good cash flow (helped by trading with the Italians in the process), you can crush the Spanish and take Leon and Castile after which point you are set up for world domination (after you fight off crusades, subdue the French in land, the English at sea and kick the Germans in the butt).
Army wise the Almohads are versatile and with good melee capabilities a la catholics in early especially due to AUMs.

The Egyptians start also slow but very rich - you need to turtle by retreating your sultan to Egypt and make a strong garrison in Jerusalem, while you frantically tech up in Egypt and make farms in Palestine (that you can defend). Once you are set up in cash flow and army strength, take Syria from the Turks which will kickstart the EgyptoTurkish war, which the Turks will lose, which will kick off the EgyptoByzantine war, which the Byzantines, eventually will also lose. At that point you can consolidate in-between Constantinople/Georgia/Egypt, the holy trinity,until the arrival of the Mongols, tech up, trade with the Catholics when you don't massacre their crusades and get rich, advanced and powerful. After the Mongols are "convinced" to go conquer somewhere else, just explode in the Balkans and win.

Militarily wise the Egyptians are very solid in melee, due to Saracen Infantry around which you can built your armies. Once you can get Mamelukes (missile and melee) cavalry, you are up for lots of fun. Add some Nizaris from teh great mosque and few Ghazis for tin can openers and you are set to go, see and conquer.

HRE needs patiently to take one by one your neighbours out as quickly as you can so you don't get excommied. Start with Denmark, continue with Poland by which point the Italians will give you the chance to crush them and then the Hungarians. Once you have taken all those solidly out, you can do som close crusades (Pomerania/Prussia) to get influence, before you proceed to take over France, by which point you will have become unstoppable. It requires carefully balancing between teching/invading/diplomacy. The trick is to build up at your central core provinces at first: Franconia, bavaria, Swabia that enable you to move newly recruited troops wherever you want them quickly while your troop producing lands are secure behind the fronts.

[Cyprian2]

Me I just can't get used to the HRE. I hate the starting position, that big black mess right in the middle. It takes forever to move your armies around.

Agreed. The HRE's opening message should read: "Starting a campaign as the Germans in this [Early] period is akin to wilfully bashing your head against a brick wall until you collapse." Honestly, mounted crossbows and urban militia just don't cut it when you're being invaded on four fronts and have only one heir... And, damn it, Swabian swordsmen take way too long to come in––and are gone before you know it!

HRE needs patiently to take one by one your neighbours out as quickly as you can so you don't get excommied. Start with Denmark, continue with Poland by which point the Italians will give you the chance to crush them and then the Hungarians. Once you have taken all those solidly out, you can do som close crusades (Pomerania/Prussia) to get influence, before you proceed to take over France, by which point you will have become unstoppable. It requires carefully balancing between teching/invading/diplomacy. The trick is to build up at your central core provinces at first: Franconia, bavaria, Swabia that enable you to move newly recruited troops wherever you want them quickly while your troop producing lands are secure behind the fronts.

Sage advice, provided you still own said core provinces!

Another faction I've always found daunting (though great fun to play) is the Polish. Poland's tech tree is very slow to develop, and there are few specialized units (read, one: Polish retainers). Is it just me, or are Polish retainers not all they're cracked up to be? Seems like they die in droves no matter whom they're sent against.) Also, Poland is on the receiving end of some Golden Hordeage, which is good fun––if you can make it to 1231...

Finally, I must confess to never having "won" a game. Though I've played many, many campaigns to the point where winning is a viable outcome, I've generally always lost interest at that point. Call it a curse, call it a misplaced loyalty to "historicity," but I've just never thought of the campaign map as a thing to be dominated. I'm much more interested in the interplay between other factions, along with my own short-term goals, which makes playing Glorious Achievements a slightly lesser evil than total domination.

EDIT: By the way, if any of you guys can tell me what happens when you win (eg. what music is played, etc.), I'd be greatly obliged; I'll probably never get there myself!

[gollum]

I've finished campaigns, but many, like you give up indeed long before that.

For HRE you can make sure that you retain these provinces. Usually a strong garrison in Lorraine and Franconia will do at the beginning to guard against, respectively the French and the Poles.

Poland is indeed good fun as you are sandwitched between savage and relatively poor pagan lands, the Hungarians and the HRE. Getting the Hungarian lands, i would have thougght to be my first move, after which snatch a few eastern Holy provinces (bohemia, austria, brandenburgh). Then can choose, whether to supplant the germans completely, or take it to the Balkans and Constantinople before the Hordes arrive.

The unit roster is pretty generic catholic with the exception of Polish retainers, which, for the recruitment money and tech requirements aren't all that bad. They are an able medium heavy charger. on the same line as the Armenian Heavy Cavalry. Use them to flank and charge at the rear and don't let them do too much melee. Need to wait for the right time to strike.

As for when you win, you get a picture of your ruler and his glorious court in his palace and a narrator telling about the glory of your kingdom. You can hear the narration if you go to the main game folder and then find the appropriate wave file in the sounds(?) folder. You can also see the picture shown if you have a BIF (i believe) converter as the screen of victory you get is in files of that format.

[A Nerd]

I couldn't deal with any faction that relyed heavily upon skirmisher units. HAs, foot archers, etc. Could never figure out how to use those units or win with them without taking alot of casualties. I just stuck to western Europe.

[Vantek]

For me it was always Egypt and the Almhoads. Never could win with either of them

Excuse me?! I also have an issue with Egypt and Almohads... But because they are too damn easy! Are you talking about some sort of mod? Cause in Vanilla, they are quite possibly the two easiest factions in the whole game! Just so easy to quickly expand to a large size but very narrow borders. It has always frustrated me because I like muslim music and artwork so much, but only Turks are challenging out of the muslim factions and I hate having to fight the Golden Horde. They are a bit harder in XL, but still only playable with personal rules which make it harder on yourself.

Factions that I find too difficult? Hmm... Well, any faction which cannot expand to a large size but small borders quickly (and without pissing off the pope). Factions like Poles, Hungarians, HRE, or just really small surrounded factions like maybe Aragonese but especially stuff in XL like Switzerland or Burgundy and so on. And Russians in High because they have so short time to prepare for Golden Horde and get the main hit (I've always found Turks in High much easier, you can reach Egypt and Constantinople even in this short time, and then if you're lucky you can stave off the Golden Horde in Georgia and they usually go north and you've won; you can still lose if you're unlucky and they come after you which is of course frustrating).

And, not a faction but I never play on Expert. It's frustrating for me to try to account for the invisible moral bonuses in the battle.

[caravel]

Excuse me?! I also have an issue with Egypt and Almohads... But because they are too damn easy!

I think it all comes down to experience. Personally I find the Turks the easiest in all eras, but that's mainly because I've played them extensively over the years. I agree the Egyptians and Almohads are easy enough, but to the uninitiated they could be perceived as harder factions.

The Egyptians can be made more difficult by removing some of their available provinces and creating a buffer zone between them and the Turks. During that period the Fatimids did not control the levant, so turning Antioch, Tripoli and Palestine rebel would be an idea and deny you the large income from those early on. This would leave you with only Egypt and the three low income provinces, Arabia, Sinai and Cyrenaica. (Arabia could also be turned rebel with a sizeable camel garrison!)

The Almohad Dynasty also did not exist when the early period starts (1087), so to give a better challenge and better represent their predecessors the Almoravides, you could also turn Algeria and Tunisia rebel. Iberian lands can stay as they are.

In all cases you'll want to beef up the rebel garrisons to prevent any faction from just walking in there during the first few years.

[Cyprian2]

The Egyptians can be made more difficult by removing some of their available provinces and creating a buffer zone between them and the Turks. During that period the Fatimids did not control the levant, so turning Antioch, Tripoli and Palestine rebel would be an idea and deny you the large income from those early on. This would leave you with only Egypt and the three low income provinces, Arabia, Sinai and Cyrenaica. (Arabia could also be turned rebel with a sizeable camel garrison!)

The Almohad Dynasty also did not exist when the early period starts (1087), so to give a better challenge and better represent their predecessors the Almoravides, you could also turn Algeria and Tunisia rebel.

In all cases you'll want to beef up the rebel garrisons to prevent any faction from just walking in there during the first few years.

You posit some very good things here, Caravel. I now see why gollum felt compelled to name the pocket mod's cousin after you :).

I agree that the game could benefit from more and better-garrisoned rebel provinces. Indeed, some strong rebel buffers seem to be the just the ticket. I've never liked that the Almos and Egyptians start with so many provinces––and I'd like to see some other factions chastened, as well. For example, one more rebel Province in England: Northumbria, which would stop the English expanding too quickly into Scotland. Also, a rebel Saxony for the HRE (which would give Denmark a potential foothold on the continent proper, and also reflect the rebellious nature of the Saxon dukes (Henry the Lion springs to mind)). Finally, I'd like to see a rebel Aquitaine––which might give the French and English something to fight over or, alternately, offer a bribery target for the English. (By the way, I've always wondered wether or not there's a script which motivates certain factions to bribe specific rebel provinces, or if it's just a coincidence that the Spanish seem to like bribing Lord Cid?).

Iberian lands can stay as they are.

Actually, it would be nice to see a province in Spain proper to reflect the taifa states (let's say, Cordoba) that's initially held by muslim rebels with a strong possibility of their being bribed by the Almos––unless the christians get there first. That way, you'd have a truly divided Spain. While I'll admit that I sometimes value historicity over game-play and "balance," I think that implementing more rebel provinces across the board would make for a more interesting Early period on every level. (I've seen some of this already in the Caravel mod, but it could be taken a step further in my opinion. EDIT: I should clarify (before gollum does :) ) that Caravel mod does not alter any of the faction starting positions (at least I don't think so), but it does "beef up" rebels significantly, so they are less likely to be steamrolled early on.)

By the way, Caravel, thanks for your clarifications in the Caravel mod thread. I will answer them here, if that's okay. I actually had the pleasure of reading all about your pocket mod while still a lurker. In fact, one of the things that prompted me to sign up at the Org was seeing the lively and oftentimes erudite discussion that went on in that thread. Chess vs. monopoly, indeed.

EDIT: Sorry for straying somewhat from this thread's subject matter, but it's my belief that, on some level, it's all related!

[Togakure]

HRE for me. Hungary, similar. I don't like large, disorganized, under-manned, centralized provinces (reminds me of Oda). I can play them and win, but it's more of a headache than fun to me.

I find the Egyptians to be an easy faction--crush the Turks early, push the Byzantines beyond Constantinople and Georgia, and once firmly entrenched in the holy lands, head west to Spain and then up into Western Europe. By the time the Khan arrives, surviving enemies make a nice buffer between Egypt's lands and the invading horde. Great trading provinces, great farming provinces, and plenty of provinces that are neither, both landlocked and seaside, which can be used for other specializations. Great unit bonuses too.

I love playing as Spain and haven't played as the Almohads as much. I do remember trying them out on several campaigns some time ago. I don't remember them being particularly interesting or challenging.

[Vantek]

Not sure if making more rebels is enough to make Almohads and Egyptians hard, though it would make them harder of course. The problem with rebels is that they don't attack you. What makes a faction hard is when you have trouble keeping a small border with other factions, who will therefore always remain a danger. What makes Almohads and Egyptians easy is that they can always keep a very small border. Even if you put very strong rebels in Tripoli and Antioch, if you leave a path past them then Egyptians can just ignore these provinces and either take on Almohads or go north, up to Georgia and Constantinople. Only if you made these provinces factions, and strong ones at that, could it become genuinely difficult. Or, and this applies to Almohads as well, if you cut them off completely with rebels, so that you will have to go by sea to any good targets, or amass a huge army to crush the rebels, perhaps then it will become genuinely difficult too.