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Thread: The Palestine Papers

  1. #1
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default The Palestine Papers

    Well it looks as if we are living in a new era of hitherto unimaginable (involuntary) transparancy indeed.

    Leaked US helicopter attack videos, US diplomatic cables, Swiss bank accounts, the workings of a major American bank (upcoming by wikileaks). And now:

    The Palestine Papers.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers
    http://english.aljazeera.net/palestinepapers/


    The peace process is over. The papers reveal that the PA has been willing to concede nearly everything. That Israel refuses anything. That America is not at all an honest broker.

    What a farce.
    It's over. Given the shocking nature, extent and detail of these ghastly revelations from behind the closed doors of the Middle East peace process, the seemingly endless and ugly game is now, finally, over. Not one of the villains on the Palestinian side can survive it. With any luck the sheer horror of this account of how the US and Britain covertly facilitated and even implemented Israeli military expansion – while creating an oligarchy to manage it – might overcome the entrenched interests and venality that have kept the peace process going. A small group of men who have polluted the Palestinian public sphere with their private activities are now exposed.

    For us Palestinians, these detailed accounts of the secretly negotiated surrender of every one of our core rights under international law (of return for millions of Palestinian refugees, on annexing Arab Jerusalem, on settlements) are not a surprise. It is something that we all knew – in spite of official protests to the contrary – because we feel their destructive effects every day. The same is true of the outrageous role of the US and Britain in creating a security bantustan, and the ruin of our civic and political space. We already knew, because we feel its fatal effects.

    For the overwhelming majority of Palestinians, official Palestinian policy over these past decades has been the antithesis of a legitimate, or representative, or even coherent strategy to obtain our long-denied freedom. But this sober appreciation of our current state of affairs, accompanied by the mass protests and civil society campaigns by Palestinian citizens, has been insufficient, until now, to rid us of it.

    The release into the public domain of these documents is such a landmark because it destroys the final traces of credibility of the peace process.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...r-palestinians
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  2. #2

    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Dang. That's not good.


  3. #3
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    East-Jeruzalem is quite the concession, if this is true it's bad

  4. #4
    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    What more does Israel want? There's nothing else that Israel could demand other than the utterly insane (Annexation of all Israeli settlements in the West Bank into Israel maybe?) and completely impractical in the long term. It's now as clear as day that with such a yawning disparity of power and strength between the two parties that bilateral talks are doomed to fail and for all intents and purposes are dead. If the United States wants peace in the Middle East, it must impose a unilateral state of peace upon Israel.

    For us Palestinians, these detailed accounts of the secretly negotiated surrender of every one of our core rights under international law (of return for millions of Palestinian refugees)
    However, I really don't see how this is a "core right". The Right of Return for Palestinians beyond any symbolic few families moving back is an impossible demand that Palestinians should have realised long ago to give up.

  5. #5
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    I very much doubt that America would be so blunt, as they can after all pretend to be in the middle. They have nothing to gain from being hostile to the Palestinians. I am also surprised that the Israelis would have flatly refused. Why not keep the farce going with counter offer? They're slowly taking what they want anyway, so a few words doesn't matter.

    I don't think America can control Israel - or at least, they view the strategic loss of Israel too great to risk.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Well, put this into perspective: this is not about what happened today or even last year. This is about what happened during the Bush admin, which was somewhat more unconditionally supportive of Israel than the current one is. We also knew that within the Likud party a preference for settling this conflict by means of the IDF rather than peace process persists.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    What Israel seems to want to is to squeeze the occupied territories constantly and completely. To break up, sabotage and destroy political infrastructure, and to compromise and cripple civil society. Their end aim seems to be for the Palestinians to leave, and Isreal create a greater state. And so far, they seem to be on track.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Such a laugh from the amount of coverage on Sky this morning you would think Andy Grays comments on women refs were the big story.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
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  9. #9
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Their end aim seems to be for the Palestinians to leave, and Isreal create a greater state. And so far, they seem to be on track.
    they're obviously failing massively if you look at the growth rate in the west bank, and particularly so the gaza strip:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...ies#Population
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    More people, but year on year in less land.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    More people, but year on year in less land.

    Which leads to violence which leads to Israel being able to point and say "Look tewworwists" which leads to even more marginalisation
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  12. #12
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    More people, but year on year in less land.



    Effectively 4 micro-states that are cut off from each other, with settlements constantly eating away at them.
    Last edited by Idaho; 01-24-2011 at 15:12.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  13. #13
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    Which leads to violence which leads to Israel being able to point and say "Look tewworwists" which leads to even more marginalisation
    Terrorists are real they exist, Israel shouldn't have to negotiate in the first place for these territories the arabs attacked and they lost. Perfectly normal, that. But they sure could be a bit more constructive in finding a longterm solution, looks like Fatah looks a little further ahead.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Terrorists are real they exist, Israel shouldn't have to negotiate in the first place for these territories the arabs attacked and they lost. Perfectly normal, that. But they sure could be a bit more constructive in finding a longterm solution, looks like Fatah looks a little further ahead.
    Terrorists are real and they do have to talk with them who else are they gonna talk with??????.

    Neither side can win but Israel can lose.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  15. #15
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    Terrorists are real and they do have to talk with them who else are they gonna talk with??????.

    Neither side can win but Israel can lose.
    Indeed. You can't make peace by talking to your friends, only with your enemies. The only way to get a lasting peace is for the hard-liners in Israel to agree with the hard-liners in Palestine, otherwise those two groups will do their utmost to sabotage any solutions put forth by more moderate Israelis/Palestinians.

    That means the Jewish settlers need to have a chat with Hamas. It sounds impossible, but hey, if you blank out where it says Jew or Arab in their propaganda, it's basically the same thing.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  16. #16
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    That means the Jewish settlers need to have a chat with Hamas. It sounds impossible, but hey, if you blank out where it says Jew or Arab in their propaganda, it's basically the same thing.
    What is there to discuss with people who want you dead, kill or be killed. Hamas is plenty angry on Fatah over this, Hamas are religious extremists it's of no use

  17. #17
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    What is there to discuss with people who want you dead, kill or be killed. Hamas is plenty angry on Fatah over this, Hamas are religious extremists it's of no use
    Yes so because Hamas are beyond the pale we must stop them by what destroy the PA under Abbas or whoever.

    This stuff makes no sense unless Israel believes it can do what it likes and the US will not interfere due to various concerns.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  18. #18
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    gah double post
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  19. #19
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    Yes so because Hamas are beyond the pale we must stop them by what destroy the PA under Abbas or whoever.
    Where Hamas is in charge Fatah is kinda dead, they even killed them in the hospitals. Fatah is also scum but seem much more constructive. Talking with them sure why not, but let them destroy Hamas and the even more radical Islamic Jihad first. I am amazed of the Jeruzalem concession, Israel should have taken it.

    edit, hello Moscow goodbye 31 Russians and counting, what's there to talk about really. RIP
    Last edited by Fragony; 01-24-2011 at 17:02.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    It is not unusual for people to turn down an offer for something they believe in for other baser concerns or just complete disbelief of the offer.

    De Valera turned down complete reunification of Ireland by Churchill despite of and over any unionist concerns to join WW2.

    Dev rejected it for several reasons

    1: He didn't trust Churchill one bit, if it had being Chamberlain who made the offer he may have been tempted.

    2: To go in with Britain could end badly for Ireland if they lost, at the time everyone assumed the war was basically over an Germany had won.(USA still not in the war)

    3: Ireland was only out of a civil war (a misnomer if ever I saw one) any chucking in with Britain could topple the government.

    4: Dev may have slightly feared the dilution of the Catholic ethos of the governance of our country by having loads of northeners in government. (although this may be unfair slightly)

    The point is sometimes both side become so used to certain ways of thinking about each other that they can miss historic opportunities. Ireland did not trust Britain and the British could not understand the security concerns of a government who feared some of the people in it's own security apparatus.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  21. #21
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    What is there to discuss with people who want you dead, kill or be killed. Hamas is plenty angry on Fatah over this, Hamas are religious extremists it's of no use
    Because they want the other side dead is precisely the reason why they are the ones we need to talk to.

    Who has been sabotaging eveery peace effort so far? Hamas and the jewish settlers. Why are they doing that? Because they don't feel represented in the peace talks,, because they don't feel their needs are spoken for, and as such they don't have any sense of ownership over the peace deals, whch in turn means that they feel no obligation whatsoever to honour it.

    To put it in other terms, let's imagine a war between Sweden and Finland, and in an attempt to end the war, Denmark makes a peace treaty with Norway. See where this goes wrong?

    The Jewish settlers and Hamas are the principal aggressors in this conflict, therefore any peace deal must be between them. Other parties may be included in the deal, but those two cannot be left out.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 01-24-2011 at 17:15.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  22. #22
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    So you've been telling me the situation has been fubar from day 1.

    I'm reeling in shock

    No 2 state solution will ever come because to many people have to much invested in the 1 state solution (for thier side of course)
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  23. #23
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    It is not unusual for people to turn down an offer for something they believe in for other baser concerns or just complete disbelief of the offer.

    De Valera turned down complete reunification of Ireland by Churchill despite of and over any unionist concerns to join WW2.

    Dev rejected it for several reasons

    1: He didn't trust Churchill one bit, if it had being Chamberlain who made the offer he may have been tempted.

    2: To go in with Britain could end badly for Ireland if they lost, at the time everyone assumed the war was basically over an Germany had won.(USA still not in the war)

    3: Ireland was only out of a civil war (a misnomer if ever I saw one) any chucking in with Britain could topple the government.

    4: Dev may have slightly feared the dilution of the Catholic ethos of the governance of our country by having loads of northeners in government. (although this may be unfair slightly)

    The point is sometimes both side become so used to certain ways of thinking about each other that they can miss historic opportunities. Ireland did not trust Britain and the British could not understand the security concerns of a government who feared some of the people in it's own security apparatus.
    i didn't know that, cheers.

    re. politically motivated terrorist movements - grind them until they recognise they can't win, then offer them a non-violent solution on terms they are in no position to refuse.

    worked with the IRA, as best as NI can be said to 'work'.....
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    What is there to discuss with people who want you dead, kill or be killed. Hamas is plenty angry on Fatah over this, Hamas are religious extremists it's of no use
    There is a lot of rhetoric, but really if a few million people were that hell bent on killing Israelis, we'd have a lot more dead Israelis. This claim is kept up to marginalise the Palestinians and absolve Israel of it's guilt in grinding them into the dirt.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  25. #25
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i didn't know that, cheers.

    re. politically motivated terrorist movements - grind them until they recognise they can't win, then offer them a non-violent solution on terms they are in no position to refuse.

    worked with the IRA, as best as NI can be said to 'work'.....
    That's a staggeringly and preposterously one-sided view of the resolution of the troubles and the negotiations between the UK Government and the IRA.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  26. #26
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    oh i agree, there was lots of empathising and hand-wringing over hard fought compromise positions, and that it had nothing to do with the fact that by the end of the eighties the british secret services had the IRA compromised to the point where:

    > their head of internal security was a stooge who set up good and loyal car-bombers in order to protect other British agents,
    > their weapons caches were sabotaged and/or booby-trapped,
    > their operations were known in advance often resulting in murderous ambushes,
    > they had trouble saying anything to anybody without it being recorded in triplicate,

    as said earlier, states can't win but they can lose, well we managed to persuade the IRA they could not win while demonstrating that we weren't going to lose either.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 01-24-2011 at 17:53.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  27. #27
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    re. politically motivated terrorist movements - grind them until they recognise they can't win, then offer them a non-violent solution on terms they are in no position to refuse.

    worked with the IRA, as best as NI can be said to 'work'.....
    Which is all the stranger when one considers the concession the PA made in this instance, Israel basically refused the chance to settle the problem at it's back.

    To me if I was an Israeli the benefit of having sorted out the problem in one place gives more room and energy to concentrate on Hamas, which Fatah would approve of and prob even help with.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  28. #28
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Israel wants it all, and is confident that over time it will eventually get a lot more than what was offered.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
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  29. #29
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    There is a lot of rhetoric, but really if a few million people were that hell bent on killing Israelis, we'd have a lot more dead Israelis. This claim is kept up to marginalise the Palestinians and absolve Israel of it's guilt in grinding them into the dirt.
    They simply don't have the chance, they've gotten their own wall to wail at, can't think of a better solution really. I feel sorry for the normal Palestinians but as long as they hate the jews more than they like eachother it's futile.

  30. #30
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Palestine Papers

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    Which is all the stranger when one considers the concession the PA made in this instance, Israel basically refused the chance to settle the problem at it's back.

    To me if I was an Israeli the benefit of having sorted out the problem in one place gives more room and energy to concentrate on Hamas, which Fatah would approve of and prob even help with.
    agreed, their behaviour seems inexplicable.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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