The Palestine Papers

[Fragony]

Uh, let me get this straight: the guy (you) who brags that he wants to kill civilians is parsing my statements to imply that maybe, perhaps, there's a chance that I don't care if civilians get hurt even though I have repeatedly said civilians should not be targeted?

I applaud you for your active imagination if not your reading skills.

I would have absolutely sunk that Flottilla yes, watching them drown was a bit much but I'm a poet at heart.

Again, you said these rockets should be aimed, but these rockets aren't accurate but you still say they shouldn't hit civilians. Que? Is that a new approach to making sense. Almost as silly as condemning violence from both sides without ever actually doing so.

[Husar]

Duh, guys, it's the same old arguments and they're still as bad as they were back then.

Israel may cause collateral damage, that would be fine if they didn't do it to defend illegal settlements that they built on the razed former homes of Palestinians.
The israeli settlers who "train" their children to throw stones at palestinian children while the army watches hardly prove that Israel is only in it because it was attacked, that's all a load of rubbish.

The Palestinians on the other hand fire homemade rockets into israeli cities, that's a terrorist attack, it's nowhere near a targeted attack on military, they also send their children to blow themselves up in israeli buses, trams and cafes, hardly places where you expect military, they're using prolonged terrorist scare tactics which obviously don't soften up the Israelis but make them harder and harder, they also "train" their kids to throw stones at israelis.

To say that either side just wants to live in peace is also rubbish, there are enough people on both sides who don't want peace that there is none and while I believe that both sides may have people who do want peace, they are obviously not getting through on too many levels, either because they're too quiet or because they're drowned out by those who prefer war.

This whole "Israel is better!" - "No, Palestine is better!" etc. seems pretty pathetic considering that they're both a thousand times worse than for example Norway. It's like choosing sides between Sauron and Palpatine.

Or...wait for it...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Stalin and Hitler!

[Fragony]

Of course Israel is better, the Arabs aren't all dead are they. It absolutely puzzles me why people despise the jews so much. What did they ever do to deserve it? A few settlements? Much worse things have happened, like being absolutely massacred in Jordania by these sick Phalanx lot absolute scum, christians by the way, murderers and rapists, got a great book with photographs from Beirut (the city, not the member that's calling me a nazi) surely they must have had a reason as well

Just musing, Europeans dehumanise the jews because that's easier than admitting what has happened. Israel is a nice excuse, somwhere, somehow. We all know it wasn't just the Nazi's.

[Beirut]

. . . got a great book with photographs from Beirut (the city, not the member that's calling me a nazi)

Well, you tell me; werent the people who invaded and occupied your country decades ago exactly the kind of people who would have looked at a boat full of civilians and said: "I'd shoot them and watch them down. Without feeling all that bad at all."

Good thing a bunch of people didn't share that point of view and came over and pulled your fat out of the fire.

The Palestinians deserve to be saved just as your people were.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Will you undo the English conquest and subjugation of French Canada and leave Québec?

[Beirut]

Will you undo the English conquest and subjugation of French Canada and leave Québec?

Subjugation of the French? In Quebec?

Pardon me while I laugh uproariously.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Subjugation of the French? In Quebec?

Pardon me while I laugh uproariously.

I see.

I wouldn't want to drag this thread into a debate about the English conquest of French America, nor interrupt your laughing uproariously. But a quick comparison could serve to explore the topic further.

Several decades after the conquest, the English conquerers etnically cleansed the Canadian maritime provinces. A third of Frenchmen were killed outright. The remaining ones fled. They still exist. The Cajuns. Do you agree that these French refugees should be returned the lands from which the English occupiers expelled them? There are several million of them.


What, except for a century and a half, is the difference between you and an Israeli colonist?

[PanzerJaeger]

Will you undo the English conquest and subjugation of French Canada and leave Québec?

And what of the Canadian subjugation of the Native Americans? Megus can discuss at length their suffering. Certainly they deserve all their land back, and until then, Megus would be completely justified in launching rockets indiscriminately at Toronto.

The native population makes up about 4% of Canada's population though it remains among the poorest. Canada was one of the few nations that last year voted against the UN declaration of the rights of indigenous peoples, saying that it would create constitutional problems.

Canada: Still oppressing two centuries later. They make Israel look like noobs...

[Beirut]

And what of the Canadian subjugation of the Native Americans? Megus can discuss at length their suffering. Certainly they deserve all their land back, and until then, Megus would be completely justified in launching rockets indiscriminately at Toronto.

I think you will find, sir, that no country has been as as generous in restitution and as observant of treaty with its indigeous people as Canada. And protection for those agreements are entrenched in our constitution. In Quebec alone, treaties with native peoples give them special status rights over hundreds of thousands of square kilometres of land, authority over billions of dollars of natural resources, as well as direct payments and compensation well into the hundreds of millions of dollars.

By the by, nice tank in your sig. My father used to blow those up.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

And what of the Canadian subjugation of the Native Americans? Megus can discuss at length their suffering. Certainly they deserve all their land back, and until then, Megus would be completely justified in launching rockets indiscriminately at Toronto....

Of course not. By Beirut's logic he would be justified in targeting RCArmy and RCMP facilities as they are armed components of the oppressor state. Beirut was very clear about the AIMING thing, PJ. Beirut has NOT succumbed to the "They hit our kids so we should hit theirs" philosophy -- he has merely noted that there are those who do think that.

[Fragony]

Well, you tell me; werent the people who invaded and occupied your country decades ago exactly the kind of people who would have looked at a boat full of civilians and said: "I'd shoot them and watch them down. Without feeling all that bad at all."

Good thing a bunch of people didn't share that point of view and came over and pulled your fat out of the fire.

The Palestinians deserve to be saved just as your people were.

Yeah yeah, and Hitler really liked dogs, you like dogs

[Beirut]

Yeah yeah, and Hitler really liked dogs, you like dogs

Okay, I like dogs and you want to kill people.

At least we understand each other.

[Fragony]

Okay, I like dogs and you want to kill people.

At least we understand each other.

What are you planning to put on the rockets that should be aimed, confetti? Don't want to kill by the way, don't really care if others do. I do care about the Iranian students who are hanged, I care about the beautiful women who are treated like beasts, I couldn't care less about the Palestinians though, got enough friends anyway

[Greyblades]

This whole "Israel is better!" - "No, Palestine is better!" etc. seems pretty pathetic considering that they're both a thousand times worse than for example Norway. It's like choosing sides between Sauron and Palpatine.

Or...wait for it...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Stalin and Hitler!

For the record I would rather be under palpatine than sauron, palpatine doesnt want to kill or even enslave everyone, just rule over them.
As for hitler vs stalin; I'm a white straight male, hitler had people killed for being a certain race, sexuality or dissability, stalin just killed anyone in the way, I'd at least be safer from roaming government death squads in nazi Germany than stalin Russia.

[Furunculus]

For the record I would rather be under palpatine than sauron, palpatine doesnt want to kill or even enslave everyone, just rule over them.
As for hitler vs stalin; I'm a white straight male, hitler had people killed for being a certain race, sexuality or dissability, stalin just killed anyone in the way, I'd at least be safer from roaming government death squads in nazi Germany than stalin Russia.

are you sure? do you occupy a position of any political or social influence and have you ever displayed any ideological impurity? The Gulag archipelago might be waiting for you..........

[Greyblades]

Not realy I dont think college students were randomly rounded up and sent to concentration camps under the Nazi's unless they acted up and as far as apperances go I'm pretty average, as long as I dont do anything to tick off the local SS I should be fine.

[Fragony]

Not realy I dont think college students were randomly rounded up and sent to concentration camps under the Nazi's unless they acted up and as far as apperances go I'm pretty average, as long as I dont do anything to tick off the local SS I should be fine.

Fine, not my idea of being fine. Wouldn't you give a crap. I'm not fine with it it disgusts me. you just don't mindlessly kill other human beings, unless they think it's a good thing of course, screw these as they are flawed

[Greyblades]

...Fine as in surviving. Guilt tripper. Think about it; stalin starved and killed many of his own people indiscriminately, "ones a tradgedy a million's a statisitc" remember, whereas nazi's killed you for being jewish/gay/black/not white but left you alone otherwise. I was saying that I would prefer germany than russia if that was the only choice. If given the chance in that situation I would have run for the USA and never looked back but with only those two as choices I'll take my chances with the guys who aren't as eager to kill people in the demographic I am in.

[Rhyfelwyr]

While it doesn't excuse the actions of the Israeli government, we in the West have a big misconception about the biggest issue in the conflict - the 'we were there first' argument.

Israeli's are not all aggressive colonists stealing land from the native Palestinians. The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza strip are almost entirely descended from immigrants from the Arab nations that came after the early Jewish settlers transformed the land and created work. And then decided they wanted a country of their own.

Even in Louix Theroux's documentary last night, it showed how the Palestinians treated the Jewish settlers in East Jerusalem. Even though these settlers are deemed illegal and seen as taking historic Palestian land, that part of the city had in fact been taken in an Arab pogrom a few decades ago.

Fundamentally, the Jews have just as much claim to that land as the Arabs, probably more.

[Beirut]

Fine, not my idea of being fine. I'm not fine with it it disgusts me. you just don't mindlessly kill other human beings. . .

But you said:

. . . I'd shoot them and watch them drown. Whithout feeling all that bad at all.

I would be infinitely be more cruel towards them then the Israeli's would ever dream of. . .

Perhaps a week or two of quiet reflection in a peaceful enviroment would allow you to gather your thoughts and express them with more... precision, and intellectual honesty.

[Husar]

Of course Israel is better, the Arabs aren't all dead are they. It absolutely puzzles me why people despise the jews so much. What did they ever do to deserve it? A few settlements? Much worse things have happened, like being absolutely massacred in Jordania by these sick Phalanx lot absolute scum, christians by the way, murderers and rapists, got a great book with photographs from Beirut (the city, not the member that's calling me a nazi) surely they must have had a reason as well

Just musing, Europeans dehumanise the jews because that's easier than admitting what has happened. Israel is a nice excuse, somwhere, somehow. We all know it wasn't just the Nazi's.

What are you omn about? Who here despises the jews? And it's not "just some settlements" when they raze your house and your whole existance to the ground to build it there.
That they were massacred by anyone is completely irrelevant as two wrongs don't make a right. And if you want to make it relevant then I'm going to say exactly because the jews suffered so much, they should know better than to make others suffer, the inability to do that only makes them look like they didn't learn anything or have become heartless and hateful themselves.

For the record I would rather be under palpatine than sauron, palpatine doesnt want to kill or even enslave everyone, just rule over them.
As for hitler vs stalin; I'm a white straight male, hitler had people killed for being a certain race, sexuality or dissability, stalin just killed anyone in the way, I'd at least be safer from roaming government death squads in nazi Germany than stalin Russia.

The Palpatine vs. Sauron was an attempt to not use what I mentioned in spoilers but I had to make sure everyone gets it so I tried not to go for people noone knows.
The whole comparison was only valid in the sense that they were both evil or are you going to argue that either of them was good and deserved to be supported?

[Greyblades]

No, I just kinda like rooting for the villians. And palpatine was one heck of a villian.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm going to say exactly because the jews suffered so much, they should know better than to make others suffer, the inability to do that only makes them look like they didn't learn anything or have become heartless and hateful themselves.

Why should any Jew have learned from the Holocaust?

The camps are not university. Not literature or theatre. You don't learn anything of value there. Nothing comes out of it. It's banal violence, not important lessons for Jews to learn.

It's like decrying that a woman has not learned her lesson after being raped.

[Beirut]

Why should any Jew have learned from the Holocaust?

The camps are not university. Not literature or theatre. You don't learn anything of value there. Nothing comes out of it. It's banal violence, not important lessons for Jews to learn.

It's like decrying that a woman has not learned her lesson after being raped.

I disagree.

There are fundamental things to be learned from being a victim; the abhorent nature of violence and the power of the soul.

[Husar]

Why should any Jew have learned from the Holocaust?

The camps are not university. Not literature or theatre. You don't learn anything of value there. Nothing comes out of it. It's banal violence, not important lessons for Jews to learn.

It's like decrying that a woman has not learned her lesson after being raped.

And the kid that touches a hot plate on the oven cannot learn anything either? And people generally never learn anything in life? Can we not learn anything from the Holocaust and the third Reich either or is it just the jews who are excused?

I disagree.

There are fundamental things to be learned from being a victim; the abhorent nature of violence and the power of the soul.

And that.

[Beirut]

Duh, guys, it's the same old arguments and they're still as bad as they were back then.

Israel may cause collateral damage, that would be fine if they didn't do it to defend illegal settlements that they built on the razed former homes of Palestinians.
The israeli settlers who "train" their children to throw stones at palestinian children while the army watches hardly prove that Israel is only in it because it was attacked, that's all a load of rubbish.

The Palestinians on the other hand fire homemade rockets into israeli cities, that's a terrorist attack, it's nowhere near a targeted attack on military, they also send their children to blow themselves up in israeli buses, trams and cafes, hardly places where you expect military, they're using prolonged terrorist scare tactics which obviously don't soften up the Israelis but make them harder and harder, they also "train" their kids to throw stones at israelis.

To say that either side just wants to live in peace is also rubbish, there are enough people on both sides who don't want peace that there is none and while I believe that both sides may have people who do want peace, they are obviously not getting through on too many levels, either because they're too quiet or because they're drowned out by those who prefer war.

This whole "Israel is better!" - "No, Palestine is better!" etc. seems pretty pathetic considering that they're both a thousand times worse than for example Norway. It's like choosing sides between Sauron and Palpatine.

Or...wait for it...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Stalin and Hitler!

The point, and it really is the point, is that until the Palestinians are free there can never be any progress. And the conditions of that freedom cannot be dictated by the jailers who have kept them locked up for generations.

It is illogical and immoral to dispossess and imprison a people, cut them off from the world, treat them like animals, and then say "Maybe we'll give you a day pass now and then if you submit more appropriately".

The incarceration of the Palestinians is unprecedented in the modern world. Only South African apartheid approaches it in brutality and inhumanity. And it was not for the black South Africans "to behave" that was a prerequisite to their being freed; being freed had to come first. It was their incarceration that was the root of the evils that plagued both sides.