The Palestine Papers

[Beirut]

Why should any Jew have learned from the Holocaust?

The camps are not university. Not literature or theatre. You don't learn anything of value there. Nothing comes out of it. It's banal violence, not important lessons for Jews to learn.

It's like decrying that a woman has not learned her lesson after being raped.

I disagree.

There are fundamental things to be learned from being a victim; the abhorent nature of violence and the power of the soul.

[Beirut]

Yeah yeah, and Hitler really liked dogs, you like dogs

Okay, I like dogs and you want to kill people.

At least we understand each other.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Subjugation of the French? In Quebec?

Pardon me while I laugh uproariously.

I see.

I wouldn't want to drag this thread into a debate about the English conquest of French America, nor interrupt your laughing uproariously. But a quick comparison could serve to explore the topic further.

Several decades after the conquest, the English conquerers etnically cleansed the Canadian maritime provinces. A third of Frenchmen were killed outright. The remaining ones fled. They still exist. The Cajuns. Do you agree that these French refugees should be returned the lands from which the English occupiers expelled them? There are several million of them.


What, except for a century and a half, is the difference between you and an Israeli colonist?

[Fragony]

Okay, I like dogs and you want to kill people.

At least we understand each other.

What are you planning to put on the rockets that should be aimed, confetti? Don't want to kill by the way, don't really care if others do. I do care about the Iranian students who are hanged, I care about the beautiful women who are treated like beasts, I couldn't care less about the Palestinians though, got enough friends anyway

[Fisherking]

Both sides have grievances against the other. Both have shed the blood of innocents.

It is now nothing more than a grudge match and unlikely to end without more bloodshed.

Two wrongs don’t make a right and degrees of guilt don’t make a lot of difference to most people.

[Husar]

Why should any Jew have learned from the Holocaust?

The camps are not university. Not literature or theatre. You don't learn anything of value there. Nothing comes out of it. It's banal violence, not important lessons for Jews to learn.

It's like decrying that a woman has not learned her lesson after being raped.

And the kid that touches a hot plate on the oven cannot learn anything either? And people generally never learn anything in life? Can we not learn anything from the Holocaust and the third Reich either or is it just the jews who are excused?

I disagree.

There are fundamental things to be learned from being a victim; the abhorent nature of violence and the power of the soul.

And that.

[Fragony]

Both sides have grievances against the other. Both have shed the blood of innocents.

It is now nothing more than a grudge match and unlikely to end without more bloodshed.

Two wrongs don’t make a right and degrees of guilt don’t make a lot of difference to most people.

There are no two wrongs, one side is determined to go all the way, they will settle for nothing less than total extermination.

[Beirut]

I see.

I wouldn't want to drag this thread into a debate about the English conquest of French America, nor interrupt your laughing uproariously. But a quick comparison could serve to explore the topic further.

Well, let's see... though English and though born here, I was schooled in French, always worked in French, got my required licenses (gun, driver, rent-a-cop) in French, opened a business with a French name as required by law, all the government, tax, and business documentation needing to be done in French as required by law, defended myself in French in a French speaking court system, voted for provicial politicians who were all French, and voted in democratic referendums held by French speaking people wanting Quebec to become an independent country. (What other repressive country like Canada allows for it's subjugated peoples to take a big chunck of land and leave whenever they want to, nothing required but a democratitic vote.)

Oh, and when I got cut open and sewed back together again last year... yep, that's right - all in French.

Now, tell unto me once more of the subjugations suffered here, would you please?

[Fisherking]

There are no two wrongs, one side is determined to go all the way, they will settle for nothing less than total extermination.

And at the moment the other side has the upper hand and is dictating events to a large degree.

Past actions of both parties are indefensible.

[Fragony]

And at the moment the other side has the upper hand and is dictating events to a large degree.

Past actions of both parties are indefensible.

Meaning anything, let them relish their hate, kindly keep giving a reason to shoot back. A school for disabled kids was hit few weeks ago, these sadistic bastards. The only reason they shouldn't all be killed is that their children are innocent, they should remember that

[Beirut]

What are you planning to put on the rockets that should be aimed, confetti?

Explosives.

The Palestinians have the right to attack and defend themselves against those who have imprisoned them for generations and who plan to continue that imprisonment for generations more.

Don't want to kill by the way, . . .

Then what does "I would shoot them and watch them drown" mean when one speaks of civilians? Or is that Dutch for "I love everybody"?

[Fragony]

Explosives.

The Palestinians have the right to attack and defend themselves against those who have imprisoned them for generations and who plan to continue that imprisonment for generations more.



Then what does "I would shoot them and watch them drown" mean when one speaks of civilians? Or is that Dutch for "I love everybody"?

Doesn't mean I don't love them, it's just somewhat differen't, that's a very Dutch thing really we all kinda are. you can make them holes in bodyparts that aren't equiped with any openings by nature, she forgot I guess

[Greyblades]

What? What are you talking about? Who's she?

[Fragony]

What? What are you talking about? Who's she?

Forgot, can't have been very special

[PanzerJaeger]

Will you undo the English conquest and subjugation of French Canada and leave Québec?

And what of the Canadian subjugation of the Native Americans? Megus can discuss at length their suffering. Certainly they deserve all their land back, and until then, Megus would be completely justified in launching rockets indiscriminately at Toronto.

The native population makes up about 4% of Canada's population though it remains among the poorest. Canada was one of the few nations that last year voted against the UN declaration of the rights of indigenous peoples, saying that it would create constitutional problems.

Canada: Still oppressing two centuries later. They make Israel look like noobs...

[Beirut]

And what of the Canadian subjugation of the Native Americans? Megus can discuss at length their suffering. Certainly they deserve all their land back, and until then, Megus would be completely justified in launching rockets indiscriminately at Toronto.

I think you will find, sir, that no country has been as as generous in restitution and as observant of treaty with its indigeous people as Canada. And protection for those agreements are entrenched in our constitution. In Quebec alone, treaties with native peoples give them special status rights over hundreds of thousands of square kilometres of land, authority over billions of dollars of natural resources, as well as direct payments and compensation well into the hundreds of millions of dollars.

By the by, nice tank in your sig. My father used to blow those up.

[PanzerJaeger]

I think you will find, sir, that no country has been as as generous in restitution and as observant of treaty with its indigeous people as Canada. And protection for those agreements are entrenched in our constitution. In Quebec alone, treaties with native peoples give them special status rights over hundreds of thousands of square kilometres of land, authority over billions of dollars of natural resources, as well as direct payments and compensation well into the hundreds of millions of dollars.

There's that rosy depiction, and then there's the truth.

In 1909, Dr. Peter Bryce, general medical superintendent for the Department of Indian Affairs (DIA), reported to the department that between 1894 and 1908 mortality rates at residential schools in Western Canada ranged from 30% to 60% over five years (that is, five years after entry, 30% to 60% of students had died, or 6-12% per annum). These statistics did not become public until 1922, when Bryce, who was no longer working for the government, published The Story of a National Crime: Being a Record of the Health Conditions of the Indians of Canada from 1904 to 1921. In particular, he alleged that the high mortality rates were frequently deliberate, with healthy children being exposed to children with tuberculosis.

The 'restitution' you describe amounts to nothing but trinkets, shiny beeds for Manhatten if you will. Why don't you just give them their land back and go back to Britain or where ever your colonist, oppressor relatives came from? They were there first and you stole their land and genocided them for the hell of it.

Israel's problem is that they haven't been as ruthless as Canada in dealing with their indigenous population. I guess they did learn something from the Holocaust.

By the by, nice tank in your sig. My father used to blow those up.

Unless he found them out of gas and abandoned, I'm doubting he blew up many of those.

[Greyblades]

Unless he found it out of gas and abandoned, I'm doubting he blew up many of those.

Indeed, that's a german tank destroyer, I believe, assuming your father operated a bazooka I dont think he would have encountered many of them; they weren't often used against infantry. Also if he was a Sherman tank driver the chances of surviving against them was remote, Sherman's weren't realy known for being particually powerful in comparison to German tanks.

[Beirut]

There's that rosy depiction, and then there's the truth.

Oh, I'm certainly not saying the native people were always well treated, on the contrary - they suffered horrible abuses because of the stupidity of Canadian people. I am the first to agree that we owe the native peoples a huge debt. But I also believe the Canadian people are coming to terms with the truth of the situation and are honestly concerned with making up for the horrors visited upon native peoples because of our ignorance and stupidity. And I say again that few, if any, countries in the world are going as far in making reparations as Canada is.

The 'restitution' you describe amounts to nothing but trinkets, shiny beeds for Manhatten if you will. Why don't you just give them their land back and go back to Britain or where ever your colonist, oppressor relatives came from? They were there first and you stole their land and genocided them for the hell of it.

I can't make up for what happened centuries or even decades before I was born. What I can do is push for and support the native people in their goals right now. I can and I do.

And if you think what the native peoples have received (so far) as restitution is nothing but trinkets, then you really have no idea of the truth. But if you want to excuse the murder of Palestinians by the Israelis by throwing rocks at Canada, that's fine with me. We can carry the converation as far as you would like to take it. But given that the two situations exist as night and day in comparision, it does little to further your argument.

Israel's problem is that they haven't been as ruthless as Canada in dealing with their indigenous population. I guess they did learn something from the Holocaust.

I admit to being befuddled; I'm not sure whether to point out the thundering wrongness of that statement or to simply state how odd it is that the person making it is one who glorifies Nazism.

Unless he found them out of gas and abandoned, I'm doubting he blew up many of those.

Proof is in the pudding. We won - they lost. And one of the reasons we won is that we blew up a lot of their tanks.

[Beirut]

Indeed, that's a german tank destroyer, I believe, assuming your father operated a bazooka I dont think he would have encountered many of them; they weren't often used against infantry. Also if he was a Sherman tank driver the chances of surviving against them was remote, Sherman's weren't realy known for being particually powerful in comparison to German tanks.

He was a graduate of Sandhurst and served as a tank commander with the Canadian army in Italy in WWII.

[PanzerJaeger]

I can't make up for what happened centuries or even decades before I was born.

Yes you can. It's as easy as packing up and moving away. Give the people their land.

I mean, Israel Canada took an extra step into the land of the stupid by not only redrawing borders, but by importing an entire culture and people from another part of the world and plopping it right smack dab in the middle of a place that already had an indigenous population. It was not only criminal and stupid, but criminally stupid.

Who are the ones stealing land, imprisoning thousands without trial, using torture, killing men. woman, and children with every weapon imaginable, denying the very basics of human life, and keeping a million people in a brutal open air concentration camp decade after decade after decade?

And if you think what the native peoples have received (so far) as restitution is nothing but trinkets, then you really have no idea of the truth.

It is nice that you - the occupier who makes a living out of destroying the environment they care so deeply for - have deemed your nation's efforts at restitution 'good enough'.

Maybe if the ones who stole the land and imprisoned, brutalized, tortured, dehumanized, and killed the people who lived there didn't do those things, the other people wouldn't feel so abused.

The Israelis Canadians are the bad guys. They are the ones who continue to steal land. They are the ones who kill far more innocent people than the indigenous peoples. They are the ones who ran concentration camps and keep whole generations locked up under brutal and inhuman conditions.

But given that the two situations exist as night and day in comparision, it does little to further your argument.

Indeed they are. The Israelis never used biological warfare as a method of genocide against Palestinian children. The Israelis have never tried to 'kill the Palestinian in the child'.

I admit to being befuddled; I'm not sure whether to point out the thundering wrongness of that statement or to simply state how odd it is that the person making it is one who glorifies Nazism.

Sieg Heil

Since the discussion has revolved around evil nations full of genocidal, maniacal, occupying outsiders with no intention of returning the land they stole (and/or ridiculously over-dramatic rhetoric about such nations), Canada seemed to fit right into the equation - except that what they did and continue to do to the natives is at least several orders of magnitude greater than the worst the Israelis have done to the Palestinians. You don't agree?

He was a graduate of Sandhurst and served as a tank commander with the Canadian army in Italy in WWII.

Considering the fact that no Jagdpanthers served in Italy, I have an even harder time believing your father ever blew one up.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Well, let's see... though English and though born here, I was schooled in French, always worked in French, got my required licenses (gun, driver, rent-a-cop) in French, opened a business with a French name as required by law, all the government, tax, and business documentation needing to be done in French as required by law, defended myself in French in a French speaking court system, voted for provicial politicians who were all French, and voted in democratic referendums held by French speaking people wanting Quebec to become an independent country. (What other repressive country like Canada allows for it's subjugated peoples to take a big chunck of land and leave whenever they want to, nothing required but a democratitic vote.)

Oh, and when I got cut open and sewed back together again last year... yep, that's right - all in French.

Now, tell unto me once more of the subjugations suffered here, would you please?

It it not about Canada, but about establishing guiding principles.


Does your stance on Canada mean that in principle you think Israel should exist, but that it should treat the Palestinians as well as English Canadians treat their minorities?

[Fragony]

It it not about Canada, but about establishing guiding principles.


Does your stance on Canada mean that in principle you think Israel should exist, but that it should treat the Palestinians as well as English Canadians treat their minorities?

Allowing them to rule themselves in territories that are their own, only Canadian in name? Ah well. Where teh outraged over the Marrocans illegally holding the Western Sahara, where are they when Turkey uses gas against the Kurds, where are they when Egypt gasses Palestinians. Horrible way to die, your longues actually melt, you live long enough to cough parts of them up, 30 minutes or so.

[Beirut]

Yes you can. It's as easy as packing up and moving away. Give the people their land.

I mean, Israel Canada took an extra step into the land of the stupid by not only redrawing borders, but by importing an entire culture and people from another part of the world and plopping it right smack dab in the middle of a place that already had an indigenous population. It was not only criminal and stupid, but criminally stupid.

Reading your posts I get the feeling you support the Palestinians.

That's very enlightened of you.

Who are the ones stealing land, imprisoning thousands without trial, using torture, killing men. woman, and children with every weapon imaginable, denying the very basics of human life, and keeping a million people in a brutal open air concentration camp decade after decade after decade?

The Israelis.

Is it just me or is there somehting really weird about being lectured to on the rights of Jewish people by someone with a tag and sig that would frighten a Jewish grandmother right into her grave?

It is nice that you - the occupier who makes a living out of destroying the environment they care so deeply for - have deemed your nation's efforts at restitution 'good enough'.

I've worked on reserves cutting trees and clearing out for maple sugar stands with Mohawks. Believe me, I think I was the most environmentally minded guy there.

Indeed they are. The Israelis never used biological warfare as a method of genocide against Palestinian children.

Well it's not a good tactic for people living only a mile away.

Sieg Heil.

Whatever turns you on, baby.

Since the discussion has revolved around evil nations full of genocidal, maniacal, occupying outsiders with no intention of returning the land they stole (and/or ridiculously over-dramatic rhetoric about such nations), Canada seemed to fit right into the equation - except that what they did and continue to do to the natives is at least several orders of magnitude greater than the worst the Israelis have done to the Palestinians. You don't agree?

Not in the least. As time goes by Canada gives more land back to the native people, grants them more special rights and jurisdition, and pays more restitution. Israel just keep taking and killing and taking and killing.

Considering the fact that no Jagdpanthers served in Italy, I have an even harder time believing your father ever blew one up.

None in Italy? Were they up in Poland with the SS beating up old women or in France having "senior staff" fellatio parties*?

(*I was just reading The Arms of Krupp and there is the story of Fritz Krupp getting busted for being a pedophile and the authour describes the rampant sodomy taking place between German officers in the Reich. Gives a whole new meaning to "breach loading" doesn't it?)

[Beirut]

It it not about Canada, but about establishing guiding principles.


Does your stance on Canada mean that in principle you think Israel should exist, but that it should treat the Palestinians as well as English Canadians treat their minorities?

I believe the creation of Israel was a criminal, but it's too late to do anything about it. Israel exists and that's that. And no, the Israelis should have no jurisdiction over the Palestinians. Palestine has to be a free country.

[Fragony]

It isn't even the worst they use schools for http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&tb...&aqi=&aql=&oq=

Ever considered that a state would make terror an domestic thing, they aren't going to burn their hands at that as long as they get it all for free.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I think that neither side wants this situation solved. It is beneficial for both Israel and Palestinians to have an arch(?) enemy. It's much easier to blame some one else for all the bad things that happen in your home. I'm quite sure that my grandchildren will talk about the situation in Israel/Palestine.

[PanzerJaeger]

Reading your posts I get the feeling you support the Palestinians.

The only thing I support in this thread is the insanely over the top rhetoric that can be applied to virtually every developed nation on earth. Such hysterics make the backroom fun.

Is it just me or is there somehting really weird about being lectured to on the rights of Jewish people by someone with a tag and sig that would frighten a Jewish grandmother right into her grave?

Please try and keep up. I'm lecturing you on the Native Americans that you are currently oppressing.

Not in the least. As time goes by Canada gives more land back to the native people, grants them more special rights and jurisdition, and pays more restitution.

The language of the oppressor, ladies and gentlemen, from a citizen of the nation that voted against the UN declaration of the rights of indigenous peoples. You've stolen their land, destroyed their civilizations, and genocided their children - and now you're offering them grants! How enlightened.

Why don't you just leave, Beirut? Remove your jackboot from these poor people's collective throat, pack up, and go. You're living and profiting directly from stolen land, while the victims remain some of the poorest people in the Western Hemisphere.

Canada is a criminal, genocidal nation and I fully support violent insurrection against Euro-Canadians. It's time some inaccurate rockets landed in your backyard, so you can begin to feel the pain of the victims you are currently oppressing.

None in Italy?

Nope, not a one - and your father should consider himself lucky for that indeed.

[Beirut]

The only thing I support in this thread is the insanely over the top rhetoric that can be applied to virtually every developed nation on earth. Such hysterics make the backroom fun.

What's rock & roll without feedback?

Please try and keep up. I'm lecturing you on the Native Americans that you are currently oppressing.

I simply thought you needed to do a better job of it.

The language of the oppressor, ladies and gentlemen, from a citizen of the nation that voted against the UN declaration of the rights of indigenous peoples. You've stolen their land, destroyed their civilizations, and genocided their children - and now you're offering them grants! How enlightened.

Why don't you just leave, Beirut? Pack up and go. You're living and profiting directly from stolen land, while the victims remain some of the poorest people in the Western Hemisphere.

Canada is a criminal, genocidal nation and I fully support violent insurrection against Euro-Canadians. It's time some inaccurate rockets landed in your backyard, so you can begin to feel the pain of the victims you are currently oppressing.

Soaring prose, lad. Soaring prose.

I can't say that it bears a hint of a whiff of a sniff of reality in it, but by God it was well written.

Nope, not a one - and your father should consider himself lucky for that indeed.

I don't see why. Since the Germans got whacked in every theater they fought in, that means someone was blowing those things up. And since my father was a someone and fought in a theater of WWII, it stands to reason that would have blown some up, too.

So whether it was the Russians blowing them up "BOOM!" or the Americans blowing them up "BOOM!" or the British blowing them up "BOOM!" or the Canadians blowing them up "BOOM!", the fact remains - they done go blowed up

"BOOM!"

[Louis VI the Fat]

Forget about the Six Nations*, this weekend's best entertainment is provided by the nazi and the lumberjack.



* The Euro rugby tournament that is, not the genocided people from whose stolen land Beirut castigates others for stealing land.