Moscow airport bombing

[Greyblades]

Of course, I just kinda like being on the giving out end when it comes to correcting misconceptions for once.

[Husar]

Softer targets.

They don't have the force necessary to carry out assasinations of high-profile people. Your statement is like saying that England should've whacked Hitler in 42 instead of getting millions of people killed! Yes, they would've done that.... If they had been able to.

Do I support the killing of innocent people? Of course not. The blame is first and foremost with the killers.



But that does not in any way absolve Putins incompetent rule of blame.

Absolutely, I just can't see where they're coming from.
If someone wrongs me then I don't go and kill his neighbors because I'm too weak to take the guy on who wronged me.
I know they think that through terror they can achieve this or that but even I know that Russians aren't usually the kind to give way when they're under pressure.
Most likely they just killed some innocents and made the lives of the remaining Chechens even worse, perhaps ruined the lives of Chechens who got away from the terror until now.

Who could seriously expect Russia to pack their bags and leave Chechnya because of such an attack? Most likely they will just inflict even more terror and injustice upon the Chechens now.
And they lose the sympathy of the international community as well. Reminds me of the Israel-Palestine thing...

[Rhyfelwyr]

Actually Husar if they are able to launch a sustained campaign they may well get their way, ask any IRA man like Gerry Adams.

[Husar]

Actually Husar if they are able to launch a sustained campaign they may well get their way, ask any IRA man like Gerry Adams.

The IRA fought the British, these guys are fighting the Russians, who have repeatedly voted for a tyrant like Putin and have a culture that promotes physical strength, where many men drink themselves to death etc.
It's not exactly the same situation IMO. I'm not sure the Russians are as diplomatic as their leaders are apparently elected because they appear tough.

[HoreTore]

Do you happen to know how the russian communist revolutionaries operated in the late 19th century?

Assassinations, bank robberies and terror bombings.

I assume you are aware of who won in the end?

Same story in Cuba, and probably a lot of other places too. Terrorism actually works.

[Husar]

I assume you are aware of who won in the end?

Yes, capitalism.

And wasn't the Tzar overthrown when his palace was stormed directly by the revolutionaries? IIRC that was also during WW1 while the army was fighting on the front etc.
Plus it came from the Russian people themselves, not some outsider group living hundreds of kilometers away somewhere at the border, I think that makes a difference.

[HoreTore]

Yes, capitalism.

And wasn't the Tzar overthrown when his palace was stormed directly by the revolutionaries? IIRC that was also during WW1 while the army was fighting on the front etc.
Plus it came from the Russian people themselves, not some outsider group living hundreds of kilometers away somewhere at the border, I think that makes a difference.

I think you need to brush up on your history, lad

[Fragony]

See nothing wrong with it

[Sarmatian]

Seamus is right on the money.

The civillian population in Chechnya is the specific target of the drunk soldiers of the Russian Army/interior forces/FSB. While I certainly do not agree with the way the war in Iraq and Afghanistan has been/is carried out, to compare those two with Chechnya is wrong. The US' targets are people defined as enemies. The Russian targets are both actual rebels and people they know are just civillians. As well as practicing the mobster way of killing/torturing family members of rebels they've killed, even though those peple had done nothing wrong.

Another point is of course that a lot of arussia's victims don't die from gunshots, but from torture. The FSB kidnaps and toures people at will. I loathe Gitmo. But at least they are still alive, and even released. A Chechen torture victim has little chance of that of ever seeing sunlight again.

A Chechen woman refused the sexual advances of a drunk arussian general? No worries, just call the army rent-a-mob, kidnap her, rape her and then kill her. And then start terrorizing her remaining family to keep their mouths shut.

Need evidence? 10 minutes of reading one of Russia last independent newspapers, Novaja Gazeta, should give you plenty. If their journalists are still alive by the time I've finished writing this, of course....

Articles in Novaya Gazeta are considered hard evidence now? Also, being anti-regime or anti-Putin doesn't make you independent or honest. Anti-Milosevic media also called themselves independent but they were often financed from abroad or by opposition to serve their interests.

Comparing civilian victims from two wars in Chechnya and one war in Iraq, I'm not noticing huge disrepancies and there were many reports in both cases that soldiers were brutal and negligent of civilian lives, there were reports of rape and torture and similar stuff so I can't really conclude that one is worse than the other because one is done by Russians and the other by Americans...

[HoreTore]

See nothing wrong with it

For starters, the revolution took place in 1917, not "late 19th century" which was the time period I was referring to...

[Fragony]

For starters, the revolution took place in 1917, not "late 19th century" which was the time period I was referring to...

These things cook very slowly, it just happened to be that serfdom lasted a bit longer, was gone everywhere but Russia, doesn't happen in a day you know

[HoreTore]

????

I referred to the terrorism committed by russian revolutionaries during the late 19th century.

Anyway, an update on the subject:

Putin denies Chechen involment, while the state media blames Call of Duty: Modern Warfare...

HoreTore laughs.

[Husar]

For starters, the revolution took place in 1917, not "late 19th century" which was the time period I was referring to...

So nobody won as nothing changed in the late 19th century and they didn't achieve anything with their terror since the actual change only came about years later in 1917.

[HoreTore]

So nobody won as nothing changed in the late 19th century and they didn't achieve anything with their terror since the actual change only came about years later in 1917.

Oh come on.... Do I really have to explain this....?

Spontaneous change isn't what people are after. Change takes time, groups need to gain strength, and the enemy needs to be sabotaged. As they say, Rome wasn't built in a day. The terrorism committed by early revolutionary groups helped the movement grow stronger, so strong that it eventually gained power.

[Fragony]

Oh come on.... Do I really have to explain this....?

Spontaneous change isn't what people are after. Change takes time, groups need to gain strength, and the enemy needs to be sabotaged. As they say, Rome wasn't built in a day. The terrorism committed by early revolutionary groups helped the movement grow stronger, so strong that it eventually gained power.

Russia's revolution wasnlt built in day, it was basicly a feudal society until very late in the 19th century

[Rhyfelwyr]

The IRA fought the British, these guys are fighting the Russians, who have repeatedly voted for a tyrant like Putin

Heh, you think the Brits played nice? It was their heavy-handedness that caused the upsurge in support for the IRA, I guess the situation might be similar with the Chechens. Also, we had Maggie Thatcher back then, don't mess.

And it wasn't just a cash of the government being tough, they played dirty. It's thought British security forces involved in the singlebiggest atrocity of the whole Troubles

Putin and have a culture that promotes physical strength, where many men drink themselves to death etc.

Sounds like west Belfast to me (or Glasgow for that matter). These are officially the most violent places in the developed world remember.

[LittleGrizzly]

I think it is just bloody minded revenge, I don't think they are using it directly as a route to victory (not a short term one at least) Whilst I am not trying defend killing innocent civilians almost all people (animals too for that matter) will lash out when pushed to far, but lashing out at those responsible (I am pretty sure the soldiers deployed there do get attacked to little effect) that is those giving the orders is not exactly easy, but what is easy and is possible is lashing out at the easy targets of the opponents civilians. Lets face it if your being attacked (as they see it) your going to take your means to fight back even if it is indirect and questionable.

How they justify it personally I am not sure, one of theirs for one of ours perhaps ? maybe the fact the people support these policies indirectly through elections ? maybe its supposed to replicate conditions they suffer to other places ? maybe they vainly hope that people suffering will change their minds ?

[Husar]

How they justify it personally I am not sure, one of theirs for one of ours perhaps ? maybe the fact the people support these policies indirectly through elections ? maybe its supposed to replicate conditions they suffer to other places ? maybe they vainly hope that people suffering will change their minds ?

They're apparently suffering themselves, so they should know how people react to this, no? Are we going to see Russian suicide bombers blowing themselves up in Chechnya now?

[HoreTore]

They're apparently suffering themselves, so they should know how people react to this, no? Are we going to see Russian suicide bombers blowing themselves up in Chechnya now?

Yes, we most probably are going to see just that.

Just in a different form. We will probably see an increase in military oppression in the region, and increased support from the russian population for wtrcities committed by the military against innocent civilians.

[Fragony]

They're apparently suffering themselves, so they should know how people react to this, no? Are we going to see Russian suicide bombers blowing themselves up in Chechnya now?

Nah they just take them out from afar. They do have a reason to be upset with Russia. Other way around as well, they tape it when they torture Russian soldiers and send the tapes to their mothers. Nasty

[Husar]

Yes, so we go back to look at who started violence first and if I'm not mistaken from reading wikipedia, the Chechens started by trying to secede, were denied and took up arms to achieve their goals violently.
I'd suppose HoreTore(and others) would be against an attempt to achieve political goals violently but he seems to side more with the Chechens, I wonder why that is?

Is it because of the way they reacted with more extreme violence? Or because they reacted at all? Should countries just let everyone who wants to create his own mini-state?

[Fragony]

I don't see Horetore nor others taking any sides, could just be me..

[Fisherking]

Yes, so we go back to look at who started violence first and if I'm not mistaken from reading wikipedia, the Chechens started by trying to secede, were denied and took up arms to achieve their goals violently.
I'd suppose HoreTore(and others) would be against an attempt to achieve political goals violently but he seems to side more with the Chechens, I wonder why that is?

Is it because of the way they reacted with more extreme violence? Or because they reacted at all? Should countries just let everyone who wants to create his own mini-state?

All that goes back to the breakup of the Soviet Union.

I am no fully up on all the details of why they were not allowed and others were. It may have had to do with who could be prevented and who couldn’t.

The terrorists want to become such a problem that Russia will let them go. I suppose it is achievable by that means.

Russia’s solution has been military and to cow the population. There are other ethnic minorities that may not want a separate state.

I have not read enough about the situation to have a strong opinion of the rights and wrongs of the whole thing.

[LittleGrizzly]

From my reading of wiki (most reliable source known to man!) the Russsians expanded into the region in the 1780's it seems it was not until 1834 that any aggressive action was started against the Russians...

As to what that means I am not sure, seen as they successfully invaded (over) 200 years ago and held the place since despite a constant rebellious mood does that mean they deserve to hold the place regardless of local feeling ?

From the Russian POV you can understand that other regions could just follow their lead and their is an argument that remaining strong to a threat will discourage others from trying to threaten you...

Do the Russians make much in the way of effort to accomodate or negotiate with the Chechens ?

Of course from the Chechens point of view they have been fighting and getting beaten for years, they play the role of the wounded animal lashing out. If your an individual person whatever you do will make very little difference, even if you ended your own personal dream of independence your likely to be negatively effected by the conflict regardless, so why not fight, chances are you may get a little revenge which to most is better than nothing...

I think if both sides were intrested some kind of compromise could be made, give the state a little independence (have a crony in charge of the area doesn't count) let them have some powers (maybe something like a more independent American state) and give them a portion of the wealth they create to build up their state..

Of course the Russians would refuse to lose face and look weak by doing so and elements of the Chechen rebels would rather continue a hopeless struggle than settle for some kind of second prize...

[Sarmatian]

All that goes back to the breakup of the Soviet Union.

I am no fully up on all the details of why they were not allowed and others were. It may have had to do with who could be prevented and who couldn’t.

Because Soviet Union was made by Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan and other socialist republics. Chechnya was a part of Russia.

[Devastatin Dave]

Killing innocent people in the name of Allah/Jesus/the purple speghetti monster makes me horny. yes I'm drunk...

[Brenus]

“Should countries just let everyone who wants to create his own mini-state?”: You mean, like Kosovo?

“I'd suppose HoreTore(and others) would be against an attempt to achieve political goals violently but he seems to side more with the Chechens, I wonder why that is?”
I don’t know because for me it is opposite.
The Chechen rebels kidnapped, ransomed, tortured and used terror to control “their” population… They attack schools, theatres and showed absolute disrespect for human life and broke the “rule” in targeting deliberately children and vulnerable people…
Whatever their cause, I have difficulties to have sympathy for them, especially when they were calling for Jihad.
And not too much of their victims saw the daylight either and the ones who did had few body parts missing. And some commit suicide few months after their liberation against ransom…
The Hezbollah conditions for hostage were a Hilton Hotel 7 stars compared to the ones held by the Chechens.

“Assassinations, bank robberies and terror bombings” Didn’t work. And it was more the Anarchist movement than the communist one…
1917 happened because defeat, Tsar stupidity and oppression… If the Tsar wouldn’t have order to shoot against it own population, the soldiers wouldn't have to refuse to do so, and wouldn’t have to kill their officers to prevent themselves to be killed etc… I know, a little bit summary but…
The XIX century bombing campaign has nothing to do with the success of 1917 Revolution…

[gaelic cowboy]

@Littlegrizzly

A quick scan of a topographical map will show the reason the Russians are fighting in the Caucasus region today, the regions mountains act as a barrier for the Russian Federation plus there is a bonus of oil gas etc.