Moscow airport bombing

[HoreTore]

Funny how Americans were offended when people said the same thing about WTC bombing...

While the US certainly have their black marks, they're not even close to the atrocities committed by Russian forces in Chechnya.

[Sarmatian]

While the US certainly have their black marks, they're not even close to the atrocities committed by Russian forces in Chechnya.

Tell it to the kids in Iraq who had half of their face blown away because of an illegitimate war for control of oil based on an outright lie.

[HoreTore]

Tell it to the kids in Iraq who had half of their face blown away because of an illegitimate war for control of oil based on an outright lie.

Well, Iraq did happen post-9/11...

But still, that kid in Iraq was a consequence of an action, not the specific target for the action. The kid in Chechnya, however, is the specific target.

[Vladimir]

Tell it to the kids in Iraq who had half of their face blown away because of an illegitimate war for control of oil based on an outright lie.

Oh, oh the irony!

If you're going to compare anything to the U.S. compare how you think the Russian reaction will differ from the U.S. reaction or why such incidents don't happen at U.S. airports. Maybe something about the security situation in Russia. I'm just sayin.

[Sarmatian]

Well, Iraq did happen post-9/11...

What do you mean by this?

But still, that kid in Iraq was a consequence of an action, not the specific target for the action. The kid in Chechnya, however, is the specific target.

So, when you invade a country, killing kids is collateral damage, and when you're fighting insurgents in your own country, kids are not collateral damage but specific targets. Is this the principle or do you think that Russians are homicidal maniacs who thrive on killing children.

I don't really see a difference between a Chechnyan kid and an Iraqi kid, but that's just me.

Oh, oh the irony!

If you're going to compare anything to the U.S. compare how you think the Russian reaction will differ from the U.S. reaction

Yeah, it will be interesting to see if Russia now invades Tajikistan.

or why such incidents don't happen at U.S. airports. Maybe something about the security situation in Russia. I'm just sayin.

I don't know what's the security situation at Russian airports, I assume it's than in America but I don't see how that excuses terrorism.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So, when you invade a country, killing kids is collateral damage, and when you're fighting insurgents in your own country, kids are not collateral damage but specific targets. Is this the principle or do you think that Russians are homicidal maniacs who thrive on killing children.

I believe that Horetore is suggesting that the Russians have specifically targeted civilians in a "frightfulness" campaign. I do not know if there is evidence to support this claim. Horetore is hardly an apologist for the U.S. military.

Morally, I think most would agree that specifically targeting civilians for violence is less morally correct then is the harming of civilians by happenstance while targeting an opponent. This is not to say that such "collateral damage" is in any way a good thing -- I think you would be hard-pressed to find anyone quite that cavalier.

Please note, however, that this moral distinction probably matters very little to the innocent civilian who has just been harmed. They have been wronged, regardless of the agent of that wrong.

[HoreTore]

Seamus is right on the money.

The civillian population in Chechnya is the specific target of the drunk soldiers of the Russian Army/interior forces/FSB. While I certainly do not agree with the way the war in Iraq and Afghanistan has been/is carried out, to compare those two with Chechnya is wrong. The US' targets are people defined as enemies. The Russian targets are both actual rebels and people they know are just civillians. As well as practicing the mobster way of killing/torturing family members of rebels they've killed, even though those peple had done nothing wrong.

Another point is of course that a lot of arussia's victims don't die from gunshots, but from torture. The FSB kidnaps and toures people at will. I loathe Gitmo. But at least they are still alive, and even released. A Chechen torture victim has little chance of that of ever seeing sunlight again.

A Chechen woman refused the sexual advances of a drunk arussian general? No worries, just call the army rent-a-mob, kidnap her, rape her and then kill her. And then start terrorizing her remaining family to keep their mouths shut.

Need evidence? 10 minutes of reading one of Russia last independent newspapers, Novaja Gazeta, should give you plenty. If their journalists are still alive by the time I've finished writing this, of course....

[Sarmatian]

Seamus is right on the money.

The civillian population in Chechnya is the specific target of the drunk soldiers of the Russian Army/interior forces/FSB. While I certainly do not agree with the way the war in Iraq and Afghanistan has been/is carried out, to compare those two with Chechnya is wrong. The US' targets are people defined as enemies. The Russian targets are both actual rebels and people they know are just civillians. As well as practicing the mobster way of killing/torturing family members of rebels they've killed, even though those peple had done nothing wrong.

Another point is of course that a lot of arussia's victims don't die from gunshots, but from torture. The FSB kidnaps and toures people at will. I loathe Gitmo. But at least they are still alive, and even released. A Chechen torture victim has little chance of that of ever seeing sunlight again.

A Chechen woman refused the sexual advances of a drunk arussian general? No worries, just call the army rent-a-mob, kidnap her, rape her and then kill her. And then start terrorizing her remaining family to keep their mouths shut.

Need evidence? 10 minutes of reading one of Russia last independent newspapers, Novaja Gazeta, should give you plenty. If their journalists are still alive by the time I've finished writing this, of course....

Articles in Novaya Gazeta are considered hard evidence now? Also, being anti-regime or anti-Putin doesn't make you independent or honest. Anti-Milosevic media also called themselves independent but they were often financed from abroad or by opposition to serve their interests.

Comparing civilian victims from two wars in Chechnya and one war in Iraq, I'm not noticing huge disrepancies and there were many reports in both cases that soldiers were brutal and negligent of civilian lives, there were reports of rape and torture and similar stuff so I can't really conclude that one is worse than the other because one is done by Russians and the other by Americans...