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Thread: New Thread for traits suggestions

  1. #1

    Default New Thread for traits suggestions

    Edit-Sorry I meant to say new thread for traits under title

    Hello everyone, I am a new member and love what you all are doing to medieval total war two and did to Rome Total War, which is why I have a few ideas for new traits that I will put into sections, with a proposed description and historical note and effects. I am hoping to get into the team so feel free to tell me what you think and or add your own because talking about the ancients is fun.

    Section 1-Roman Liberals (told by Roman conservative stereotype voice)

    Over indulging pimping fool-When this man was asked to give his daughter to a man over three times her age who could have given him influence and wealth he said no. What kind of Pater Familias is he? -1 management, -1 influence, -1 command +1 to health +1 to fertility. Historically it is not clear how much of a legal right a pater familias had to manage his son or daughters marriage although in practice he made the decision on their first marriage. Cato the Younger was a rare exception to the rule, and his daughter married a man around her age, but instead of making that a rejection of Hortensius he got his wife to marry him, a fact Caesar later exploited in his propaganda pamphelet the Anti-Cato.

    Educated Family-Pah his Pater Familias was a fool who wasted a fortune teaching him and his brother not to pay his debts and to argue his way out of all responsibility, teaching future wives how to make public speaches, and teaching his mother how to argue. He should have learned the arts of war and farming, his brother should have learned how to serve Rome instead of himself, and his sisters should have learned weaving. What next will they be teaching Greek? +1 trade, +1 law +1 farming output -1 influence -1 management(to reflect the non utilitarian nature of Roman Education)

    Sine Manu-This man has no understanding of proper order! If his wife runs amok, how will he handle it? He can't because he has no regard for traditional forms and is reduced to begging her fool of a father to reign her in! +1 influence (representing his higher potential marriage connections) -1 management (representing his wife's seperate property and her dowry) +1 fertility (representing children from multiple marriages). Historically Manus Marriage declined during the Roman Republic in favor of "free marriage" in which a woman did not change status and her husband gained no legal rights over her. In practice this gave a significant advantage to both spouses, even if women benefited more divorce meant a man was not stuck with inlaws who could become a political liability. In practice a man stood to lose much if he stayed associated with a family tainted by treason or other disgraces during the republic. Pompey and Caesar both faced a choice of divorce or defy Sulla.

    Gone Native-This man is a disgrace to his ancestors, his people, his language, and his entire culture! When his wife danced at the Temple of Issis and sacrificed an entire Ox to her we all felt sorry for him, when he started disregarding wine for beer and became the priest at that temple we realized he is a corrupting influence who should get respect for his Lares beaten into him if need be. What kind of man worships animals! True romans should never serve this man anything but hatred. -1 unrest (representing non Romans) -1 influence (representing traditional Romans hating him), +1 trade income (representing his connections to local non Romans) -2 command +1 morale on the field.

    Hellenophile-This man idolizing the Greeks is at best humiliating to true Romans. Flavius says he smells of perfume in the morning, while Decimus says he sometimes babbles on about how wonderful philosophy is. This pales in comparison to him speaking Greek to plebs in the forums. If he could he would even put Greek in his legal documents. +1 management +1 influence -1 morale on the field (reputation as a sissy) +1 command vs Greeks (he knows about them, unlike the average Roman Commander). Historically captive Greece conquered her Conquerors. Great conservative voices like Cato the Elder tried in vain to stop the Hellenization of Rome. There is no evidence for the stereotype that Greeks corrupted an austere Rome which had only austere stoics. Many of the most iconic Roman personalities from Scipio Aemilianus to Marcus Aurelius loved Greek culture and admired Greek Philosophy. By the end of the Republic educated people had to know Greek.

    Rejects his Name-What an Outrage! This patrician of a family that has boasted Consuls ever few years since the Republic Formed has changed his name and bribed the Censor to assign him to Plebian Rank, and his sister has done the same! They don't fool anyone, he just wants power by being peoples Tribune and it is every Senator's obligation to thwart this fraud!! May his sister turn ugly and may he die at the hands of a gladiator! +1 influence (representing the possibility of becoming a Peoples Tribune) +1 management (representing potential to use mobs) -1 personal security (representing grudges against his family). Historically the only known case of a patrician trying to get declassed is Clodius and his sister Clodia who used bribery to become Plebs so Clodius could gain the power of Peoples Tribune. Clodius was a powerful man as a result and defied better known personalities like Julius Caesar and Marcus Tullius Cicero. The censor had power when the census was taken, although there are no other examples of that abuse known at present.

    Homosexual-Get a Judge get a Jury get the Lawyers! This man is no man at all he is a woman, his boyfriend penetrated him, it is an outrage that he has suffreage, or ability to join the army, he should be justly deprived of both under our laws! -3 influence, -3 management -3 command. Historically Rome looked down on homosexuality and had some extremely tough laws against passive homosexuals that reduced them in legal status to female citizens (roughly). However this law was rarely enforced; Domitian attempting to restore that law was considered an act of tyranny not a reassertion of Roman Virtue.


    Sister is Defiant-He may not have legal right but he certainly has the morale right to put his sisters in their place. His wif, oh sorry I make that confusion a lot, sister not only has chosen not to remarry, she has lovers over twelve years younger then she is. He should stop sleeping with his sister and start teaching her a lesson in Roman Virtue, alas he needs one himself! +1 influence +1 management -1 unrest significantly less likely to be elected to public offices. Historically Rome produced rumors that would scandalize a modern audience. The above example is an actual rumor used by Cicero in court. Roman society was not known for civility. At least it gives us great stories and scandals.

    Wife is wealthy-This man took a rich wife for a husband. He should no longer be considered a man as he doesn't even rule women, how could he be commanding legions, and setting policy when he has no influence over his own life? +1 influence (representing his wife's connections and influence) +1 management (representing if his wife helps him with her money) Anti traits-Marriage Cum Manu. Historically many Romans resented the potential and sometimes actual independence of wealthy women, however even men who wished for a more subservient partner like Cicero never hesitated to take advantage of a wealthy connection.

    Modern-This man writes of women as equal partners in sex, cuckolding anyone he could, seeking love at a Circus, and actively discourages men from joining the army and thinks the present is worth more then the past! Bah lets get rid of him, I hear there is a new vacancy in Tomis? +1 fertility +1 influence -3 command. Roman Elegy inverted the role of the citizen from serving Rome as soldiers, to serving Rome as lovers. Great poets like Catullus lived during the Republic, and the tradition continued in the Empire despite Ovid's banishment. Although there is much evidence for an austere and militant Rome, poetry reveals a more complicated picture and reminds historians not to deal too much in broad generalizations based on conflicting evidence.

    Section 2 Roman Neutral

    Sui Heredes-This man has a living father. He could own or possess nothing, enter no form of legal or commercial engagement without his father's consent. Anything he aquires belongs to his father. He can not do anything political without parental consent either, not that he would have money to run for office. In theory his father his right of life over death over him, however he is entitled to an equal share of his father's estate along with other siblings. -1 influence, -1 management, less likely to win elections. Historically a Pater Familias held Patria Potestas over sons, daughters, grandchildren, and if he married under Manus his wife. There was a scaling back of his power during the Empire, but not the Republic. Nevertheless killing children was frowned on.

    Pater Familias-This man is Sui Iuris and under the legal power of no other citizen +1 influence, +1 management, more likely to get elected to offices. Historically all male citizens became a Pater Familias if they outlived their father. Our modern stereotype of the Pater Familias is not entirely accurate. He did not need to have anybody in his power, his wife did not normally enter his manus by the end of the republic, and he did not gain any legal power over younger brothers or sisters. It is correct however to say he did hold power over those in his potestas.

    Lover-This is a real Roman, he needs many women, every passive whimpering partner he has adds more manliness to his character +2 fertility

    Legal Expert-This man has argued his case before a jury, he knows the law +1 to law

    Judge-Although professional jurists make the decisions and tell judges what to say, being the figurehead at a trial teaches a man about legal proceedings +2 to law. Historically judges not only had to rely on juristic professionals, once a Jury reached a verdict he only had a select few punishments available at his disposal, and there were standardized fines he could give.

    Prosecutor-Nobody is above the law, this man has stood up for Roman Society, if he took on an embezzling provincial governor, a Paricide, or just a thief he embodied justice even if he lost. +3 to law. Historically Roman Prosecutors were non professionals, every citizen could prosecute at least some crimes (Infames and Women could only prosecute in cases they were involved in directly) although aristocratic males were usually the lawyers because this was a service to the community, not an opportunity to get pay.

    Defense Attorney-This man has fought against arbitrary use of power by seriously challenging unjust accusations against the innocent. He should be hailed as savior of Roman Law for the point of Law is to protect the innocent not to punish, especially not to punish, especially not to punish my embez, well not to punish....+5 to law. Historically the pinnacle of an aristocratic legal career was becoming a well respected defense lawyer. It was considered more honorable to defend then to prosecute, and it was easier to because of very high standards the prosecution had to meet for a guilty verdict. Although anybody could be their own lawyer, aristocratic men like Cicero dominated the field, although well known for prosecuting Verres, Cicero opened his career defending Sextus Roscius for Parricide.
    Last edited by OvidiusNasso; 01-26-2011 at 23:05.

  2. #2

    Default Re: New Threat, new traits suggestion.

    Section Three, Roman Conservative

    Strict but fair-This man is strict to his dependents as he should be to teach them their place, and fair to those who seek a tie with him. He measures their faults and merits carefully, though he loves powerful connections if they exist to find he will find good obedient future mothers for his sons, and just lords for his daughters (anti-trait Over Indulging Pimping Fool). Effects -1 personal security. (Historical Notes) Although the Romans gradually moved away from the original concepts of Patria Potestas at it's heart was the idea of a man imposing his will over his family.

    Cum Manu-This man will never abandon the customs of the ancestors, he married the right way and he could make a proper Roman House. (No effects, anti-trait Sine Manu). Historically the older and original form of Roman Marriage made a woman for all intents and purposes her husbands possession legally equivalent to her daughters.

    Proper-This man knows only Lares and Penates are true! Why would one want Iudeo or Aegyptio Gods?

    No Superstition!-This man threatened his son with disinheritance if he took up superstitions with a bunch of old ladies.

    Divorced several times-This man does not understand why he can't just achieve concord. He has tried yelling at them, he has tried to intimidate them, he has tried asserting his dominance in bed, why won't they stay with him? He might not be yelling loud enough, he should also try yelling at the Plebs who laugh at him in the street. No effect (Historical note) Romans divorced for reasons that seem very petty to us, the above comic example was only to emphasize that.

    Virtuously Virile-This man buys slave girls and patronizes brothels when he gets manly urges, he does not defile wives and so threaten the legitimacy of other mens children. +2 influence +2 Management +1 command. Historically Cato the Elder reveals traditional Roman Values did not frown on men commiting adultery as long as it wasn't with another citizens wife.

    Married a Freedwoman-This man does not see a woman's past as relevant to her present. He chose a freedwoman and is rewarded with sanity, no need to worry about dowry and no need to suffer from a rich wife as a husband. +5 management +5 security.

    Good provider-This man makes sure his family is safe, well fed, well stocked, and rewards them for doing well with things they may want. He is an embodyment of the simple rustic virtue that makes us what we are. +3 management +1 influence +1 command.

    (Roman Anachronism)

    Caligulan Insanity

    Edit-If you guys like these Romani Suggestions I have a similar number for Steppe Nomads.
    Last edited by OvidiusNasso; 01-26-2011 at 06:40.

  3. #3

    Default Re: New Threat, new traits suggestion.

    Section 4 Hellenistic

    Erastes-This man has nobly decided to take a young boy under his wing. As well as having a sexual romantic relationship with him, he is in the process of teaching him the liberal arts, warfare, politics and other essentials for a well educated young man, and the boy is filling him with energy making it a balanced and equal relationship, why won't the Romani stop acting like that is harmful? +1 Influence -1 management. Historical Note-The Ancient Greeks did conceive of an equality based tutor pupil relationship between an older male (Erastes) and younger male (eromenos). Even in the ancient world some prominent people like Cicero questioned the motives, and legitimacy of this type of relationship, Cicero tried to prove it was perversion by tactlessly pointing our that nobody cared for the soul of an ugly Eromenos.

    Eromenos-This boy is still growing up and looks up to his mentor and lover who will teach him everything he needs to know..... -1 influence

    Obscure Origin-Most Hellenistic cities did not feature prominently in the histories. This man could be from an obscure city like Gortyn on Crete, a large town or even the fields. -1 influence. Historical Notes-Greeks could often be found moving from place to place but they didn't always gain citizenship. Moving to a major city from a minor polis was not uncommon although immigrants generally suffered some disadvantage politically. Even the smallest city had to be taken into consideration by great powers as they could often be in the way of an advancing army.

  4. #4

    Default Re: New Threat, new traits suggestion.

    any opinions on these suggestions?

  5. #5
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: New Threat, new traits suggestion.

    I like that you tried to emulate a Roman tone, and represent cultural differences between Roman and modern society. However, EB traits are part of system, and I don't think these fit in. Trait effects in EB are generally small: the overall result comes from adding up the effect of many traits. This creates realistic characters, rather than persons dominated by a single trait. I also don't like the gossipy-traits: malicious gossip was part and parcel of Roman politics, and no doubt as accurate and influential as modern-day gossip magazines.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: New Threat, new traits suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens View Post
    I like that you tried to emulate a Roman tone, and represent cultural differences between Roman and modern society. However, EB traits are part of system, and I don't think these fit in. Trait effects in EB are generally small: the overall result comes from adding up the effect of many traits. This creates realistic characters, rather than persons dominated by a single trait. I also don't like the gossipy-traits: malicious gossip was part and parcel of Roman politics, and no doubt as accurate and influential as modern-day gossip magazines.

    Thanks for the response I don't know what people around here like, but part of the point in the gossipy traits is to show exactly how gossipy and often blatantly nasty the society and culture of Rome was. They usually come off as too austere and stoic at least in my opinion, since I personally think Livy and Valerius Maximus were the ones with romantic visions, while other writers especially the nastier/more tabloidish ones embody how Romans did things a lot better.

    That is just my opinion I have no actual qualifications to back me up.

  7. #7
    EB Support Guy Senior Member XSamatan's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Threat, new traits suggestion.

    As Ludens states absolute right, traits in EB aren't single, they impact each other, so individual traits like posted from you won't fit into this system. If you want to include you traits, change the files and post them in the sub-mod-forum as a mini-mod to EB, as some of them are well thought and quite funny.

    XSamatan

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  8. #8

    Default Re: New Threat, new traits suggestion.

    The problem with having so many traits is that a character can become a god or become a complete useless moron from too many traits. I feel like having -some- roleplay value(IE:Taking a few traits and adding in additional personality traits not exhibited by the character).
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  9. #9

    Default Re: New Threat, new traits suggestion.

    thanks for the responses, I wonder since it seems traits are already worked out is there anything else I could do that isn't technical (I'm stuck in the Bronze Age) that could help?

  10. #10
    EB Support Guy Senior Member XSamatan's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Threat, new traits suggestion.

    If you have access to an university library you can always can read up your favorite region or faction in EB and share you knowledge.
    Bear in mind that the standards inside the team for historical work are very high.

    Hint: Ancient Spain or nomad factions would impress the most IMHO.

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  11. #11
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: New Threat, new traits suggestion.

    Maybe I am stating the obvious, but just in case: there's a lot of material on the Greeks and Romans but these are already well-covered; so unless you feel something is missing it's best to look elsewhere. It's the less well-known areas where the team needs help.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: New Threat, new traits suggestion.

    alright then, I do have access so just name the specific place and I'm on it since just the Steppe Nomads and Ancient Spain is pretty vague for jstor.

  13. #13
    EB Support Guy Senior Member XSamatan's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Threat, new traits suggestion.

    Every faction represented in EB1 as either 'real' faction or powerful rebel province is a good start.

    First look could be some books represented in the (unofficial) EB-Bibliography.

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