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Thread: Mongol Novice

  1. #1

    Default Mongol Novice

    After trying RTW for a while, I felt I had to get back to STW. Sure RTW is fine but its not the same as STW/MTW. So last night I stayed up later than I should to start a campaign.

    Anyway, for the first time I am playing the Mongols. I was pretty impressed with their horse archers. I sent them on ahead to harass the enemy while my infantry toiled accross the field. Well the AI decides to send out its missle units to get in a shooting fight, and so I send some of the horse archers to attack them hand to hand. I hold the rest in reserve and let them shoot up the enemy a bit. The AI decides to send in its Yari Cavalry. So I let my reserve horse archers shoot them up and their Taisho decides to run for it and their army disintegrates. One of my horse archer units persues the enemy near some trees, and a yari samurai unit comes out of ambush. So I withdraw the HAs from around it and shoot it until it routs. Then two other yari samurai units emerge from another ambush and get the same treatment.

    By the time the infantry get their, the whole match is over. Maybe HAs are even better than I remember, or maybe the Mongols get better ones?
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  2. #2
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mongol Novice

    Mongol Light Cavalry are faster than the Japanese CA. They also melee better, iirc, especially if you hit a flank or from the rear. I find them so effective that against small to medium-sized armies, I'll often send nothing but MLC against them (excepting rugged, mountainous maps like Echizen, or heavily forested ones, like Yamato). Yari Cavalry however, can catch and destroy them, so if YC are present I make sure I send enough to double or triple team them, draw them out, and take them out before dealing with the rest.

    I'll often separate out the MLC and use them for my expansion (exclusively). I then use the Korean Spearmen (which aren't very good in battle) as garrison after the MLC secure the province, to maintain order. This allows me to expand at a rapid pace (which is important, as the number of Mongol reinfocements is based on the value of the provinces taken), and hold the provinces as well. This is particularly effective early in the campaign, when the Japanese are in disorder. I make sure I have a balanced army when I engage the big Japanese armies led by the 4- and 5-star generals when they finally make their way west from Central Japan.

    EDIT:

    For the 1.02 patch (Warlord Edition; Mongol Invasions), here's a comparison of CA and MLC:

    CA, MLC:

    Charge: 10, 11
    Attack: 0, 2
    Defense: 1, 2
    Armor: 3, 4
    Morale: 2, 4
    Ammo: 28, 28
    Speed*: (8, 23, 27), (8, 24, 28)

    *Speed=March, Run, Charge

    MLC are suuperior across the board, pretty much.
    As far as I know, both use "Mounted Longbow" from the projectiles.txt file, so there is no difference here.

    Yari Cav. Comparison:

    YC, MLC:

    Charge: 15, 11
    Attack: 1, 2
    Defense: 2, 2
    Armor: 3, 4
    Morale: 4, 4
    Ammo: 0, 28
    Speed: (8, 24, 28), (8, 24, 28)

    They're strong units. Iirc, the opinion that they are too strong has been put out here more than once in the past.

    Last edited by Togakure; 01-28-2011 at 06:58.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Mongol Novice

    Well that explains why things went so easily. Thanks for the info.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  4. #4
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mongol Novice

    You're welcome. I dug a bit, edited the post, and added some more precise information.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Mongol Novice

    Thanks for the extra information. Looks like they don't stack up too bad against yari cavalry if they can avoid getting charged. I did get the feeling that their morale was better than the Japanese cavalry archers. I've only had time to try two battles so far, but the Mongol cavalry did everything I asked of them except once. I would have expected CA to break more often just from being locally outnumbered and too far from the general.

    You mentioned something about Mongol reinforcements, but I did not receive any so far. Is there something I have to do, or do they just show up when they are ready?
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  6. #6
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mongol Novice

    My pleasure. Mongol reinforcements show up periodically, in a random province along the north coast. Sometimes they show up near your front lines, sometimes well back in your established territory. If you haven't taken enough provinces (not exactly sure what "enough" is), you will get very few or no reinforcements, hence the importance of expanding regularly. I've noticed too that you don't get much for re-taking provinces that you've taken before and lost. Finally, I seem to remember that if I spent a lot of the pillage money on Watchtowers etc., my reinforcements were fewer. Hence, I tried to expand rapidly, hold new territory, and spend as little as possible in order to maximize my Khan's pleasure, and his subsequent generosity when sending more troops.

    The nature of the reinforcements varies, but as you push further into Japan, the more powerful units like Mongol Heavy Cavalry will show up, as well as more frequent Korean Guardsmen and Thunderbombers. I seem to remember the heavy cavalry showing up as my front line expanded to Izumo or thereabouts (near Aki).

    The Japanese cavalry don't match up well to the Mongol cavalry on an equal Honor footing. However, the Mongols lack good generals initially, and the Japanese start with a couple of 4- and 5-star generals (2-3-star = +1 honor bonus to all troops; 4-5-star, +2, 6-star+, +3) . Given that each point of honor bonus yields +1 Attack, +1 Defense, and +2 Morale, Japanese cavalry under a good general can outperform Mongol cavalry. As the game progresses, they can also build better dojos etc. and thus produce better cavalry. The Mongols cannot improve their units except by gaining fighting experience. Hence, I make it a point to train up at least two, and eventually three or more 4-star+ generals as quickly as possible (by using them as often as possible to lead attacks).
    Last edited by Togakure; 01-29-2011 at 03:30. Reason: typo correction
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mongol Novice

    For all the years I've been playing Shogun, I've never played as the Mongols...but many times against them. I tried several times but the blitz-style of play just doesn't suit my tastes.

    I'd have to say...those @#$% Mongol Light Cavalry might qualify as one of the best overall units in the game. Togakure mentioned that the Hojo get some very good generals a bit into the campaign.....the 4 & 5 star variety. Well, in my last AAR [Nobunagas Ambition], I had a battle well in hand being led by one of those generals but....disaster struck when I extended my center a bit too far. The MLC I was harrassing there, suddenly turned and charged. My entire center collapsed and my Taisho was killed which led to the inevitable rout of my entire army (not the first time it happened in that campaign). Needless to say, I hate MLC!

    My answer to them was scads of Ashi X-men. Cheap and deadly against HA's. A fantasy unit, to be sure, but cheaper than having two YC for every MLC, which is what it takes even with high honor Taisho's.
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 01-29-2011 at 20:22.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Mongol Novice

    The Mongol units are overpowered and the Japanese completely ahistorical in teh MI camp. I am not certain that there were Yari Sam, Naginata Inf. or Yari Cavarly. These are all characteristically Sengoku Units, and most of them emerged during teh Civil Wars, or the period leading to the Civil wars. Maybe there was No-dachi but again, not so certain. Ashi Xbows, as discussed in the Main Hall probably didn't exist either in Sengoku and even more unlikely during the Hojo Shogunate.

    The only realy historically accurate units from the Japanese roster would be the Sam Archers, CavArchers, Sam.HC and the Warrior Monks, who strangely enough do not appear at all in teh campaign. The Hojo Shoguns were particularly religious and they were patrons of Zen Buddhism bringing many Chinese masters from abroad and setting Kamakura as the political and spiritual capital of the period. Kamakura is still a very important Buddhist center to this day.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamakura_period

    I played the campaign as the Hojo many times when i was new to the game. Its basically the same battle over and over again: ashixbows, sam archers and yari sam/yariash and shooting the Mongols to bits with coordinated volleys from woods and hills and repulsing their melee waves of Korean units, and finally throwing them out by repulsing the MLC waves once they run out of arrows and charge. It has an intensity at times and a certain exasperation and at the time i was really into it. After i became a little better with the game it wasn't very imperssive or even very difficult though and i haven't played since.

    I played only once as teh Mongols, and, although i like the occasional rushing camp, it was quite easy. MLC = Yari cav+Cav archer+faster while MHC simply does not compare with anything teh Jap have. I've seen them rout spears sometimes with very little melee even.

    It would have been nice if someone could have balanced the camp and make it a little more historical as well. I heard some such attempts were made, but don't know how they ended up.
    Last edited by gollum; 01-29-2011 at 22:27.
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  9. #9
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mongol Novice

    It was intended to have the Mongols be a tough faction to beat, also in MP. In a mod they became a tough faction to win with.

    I don't think there are any real SP mods for that era though.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Mongol Novice

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandy Blue View Post
    Thanks for the extra information. Looks like they don't stack up too bad against yari cavalry if they can avoid getting charged.
    From the stats it looks like that, but the yari cavalry get a spear bonus against cavalry similar to how yari samurai do. I can't remember what it is but I think it's half as good, +4 attack or something instead of +4 attack/+4 defense like the yari samurai get.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Mongol Novice

    I've managed to make it to the capitol province by spending more time playing than I should, given the current demands of real life.

    It seems just too easy so far. I'm not sure I will bother to finish. Only the yari units can pose any threat to the Mongol light cavalry, and there are ways of dealing with them. The Mongol heavy cavalry seems pretty devastating. Once you've got them around, the yari cavalry cannot do much about them.

    Oh well. Maybe the Japanese will start fielding some heavy cavalry to counter the Mongol heavies. Or maybe I should have played the Hojo side.
    In those simple times there was a great wonder and mystery in life. Man walked in fear and solemnity, with Heaven very close above his head, and Hell below his very feet. God's visible hand was everywhere, in the rainbow and the comet, in the thunder and the wind. The Devil too raged openly upon the earth; he skulked behind the hedge-rows in the gloaming; he laughed loudly in the night-time; he clawed the dying sinner, pounced on the unbaptized babe, and twisted the limbs of the epileptic. A foul fiend slunk ever by a man's side and whispered villainies in his ear, while above him there hovered an angel of grace . . .

    Arthur Conan Doyle

  12. #12

    Default Re: Mongol Novice

    The jap heavy cavs don't stand a chance to the Mongol heavies. if you enjoy MI, play the Hojo.
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  13. #13
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mongol Novice

    Playing as the Hojo is definitely more challenging, though with a particular strategy, you can win in very short order. It is possible to win without the Mongols ever establishing a foothold on Honshu or Shikoku (they might launch attacks there, or in the case of Honshu, land there with reinforcements, but if prepared, won't be able to hold a province for more than a turn or two). I find it fun to try and contain them on Kyushu, and push them back into the sea. Just watch your back (the northwestern coast of Honshu). This requires a very aggressive and immediate response to the invasion--which from my point of view, would be exactly how the Japanese would have responded to such a violation of their homeland.

    I looked for Puzz3D's details on the various stat bonuses and penalties (like the one Sasaki Kojiro mentioned), but have not yet found them. I'll keep looking.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Mongol Novice

    Historically the Hojo Shogun's did prepare for the Mongol invasions. The Mongols sent ambassadors to teh Jap. Emperor to ask for surrender and tribute as from a subordinate territory, but they were rebuffed multiple times at the insistance of the bakuffu, the Shogun's head authority (the Imperial Court wanted to surrender out of fear of the Mongols).

    This led to the first invasion (1274) in which the Mongols made progress upon their landing against the Kyushu Samurai. At nightfall, the Japanese force was waiting for reinforcements with which the Mongols could be overwhelmed and thrown back into the sea. The Mongols from their part re-embarked their ships out of fear for their land force being marooned in Japan due to a coming storm. The stom finally did hit the ships and the army they carried at sea.

    Kublai Khan continued to demand unconditional surrender, but the Hojo Shoguns refused and even had his ambassadors beheaded. This led eventually to teh second invasion for which the Japanese were far more prepared. They had now made earthwork and defensive fortifications at landing points, with which they managed to repulse the intial landing of the second invasion at 1281 despite their local troops being heavily outnumbered. The Mongol vanguard then retreated to their ships in order to co-ordinate the landing with their whole, and much larger this time, force, when the hand of fate struck, and a taiphoon destroyed the Mongol fleet and the army it was carrying, the now famous Divine Wind or Kamikaze (litteraly Kami=God, kaze=wind).

    Historians list an additional reason for the Mongol fleet disintegrating and drowning their army; they say that the Korean ships they used were rushed to become constructed/available and that led the Koreans - who as subordinates were contemptuous of teh Mongols as anyone - to care very little for the quality of the fleet, hence the massive meltdown during teh taiphoon.

    Japanese folklore has it that, a famous Shinti priest and Holy Man was seen to call upon the Divine on the shore overlooking the Mongol fleet little before the taiphoon struck them.

    Only two peoples managed to beat and drive back the Mongols at the height of their empire; the Mamelukes of Egypt, that stopped their influx into Syria and the Japanese litteraly on the other side of the world.

    From a gameplay perspective, the best thing as teh Hojo is to contain teh Invasion in Kyshu as Togakure advises, and a small wave around the coast of the Sea of Japan in the Hiroshima area (Aki). Then the Mongols are starved from reinforcements and never get the chance to have enough units, let alone good ones to make animpact and can be thrown back into their landing spot and crushed there.
    Last edited by gollum; 02-04-2011 at 03:04.
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  15. #15
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mongol Novice

    Yes, I'm familiar with the story, though admittedly I am not nearly as interested in historical details as many here (excepting select periods in Japanese history). I'm one of those who plays for the strategic and tactical exercise, whether SP or MP. In any given scenario, I just look for various ways to defeat the enemy efficiently and effectively, trying different things to see what happens. History isn't a consideration when I play. For me, it's all a matter of what works, what doesn't, and why within the bounds of the situation.

    Edit (upon seeing additional commentary):

    From a gameplay perspective, the best thing as teh Hojo is to contain teh Invasion in Kyshu as Togakure advises, and a small wave around the coast of the Sea of Japan in the Hiroshima area (Aki). Then the Mongols are starved from reinforcements and never get the chance to have enough units, let alone good ones to make animpact and can be thrown back into their landing spot and crushed there.
    Yes indeed.
    Last edited by Togakure; 02-04-2011 at 03:17.
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