Europe and the Rest of the World - A Military Analysis

[Centurion1]

where are your from vuk? philly? because in the Us over 60% of our military is made up of good old boys from the south.

[Vuk]

...Religion? Vuk have you been sniffing paint thinner?

No, not at all. It is the reason why when we don't have a religion, we must create one out of our own beliefs (Darwinism, etc). I am not bashing religion, simply the human tendency toward dependence that makes us NEED one. Many people believe in a religion not because they have been genuinely convinced through sound reason, but because it is 'easy' for them, because now the responsibility for their lives is on someone else's shoulders. Which is to say, they have a parent figure (something that humans naturally crave...it is a type of laziness). Whether it is Mother Earth nurturing them, or Allah, or the Christian God, or even the parental figure of a socialist government that keeps them safe and provides for them, like children, they need that nurturing authority figure. It is easier, surer, and less frightening to live a dependent and miserable life than to live a satisfying independent life...or to crash and burn of your own accord. Most of life's problems can be traced to that fear, and that need for a parent figure.

where are your from vuk? philly? because in the Us over 60% of our military is made up of good old boys from the south.

Wisconsin. What is your point? They are by far the most civic minded, and well suited to the military (at least on average), so it makes sense that they make up most of the military. The coasts (and to a lesser extent, parts of the midwest), frankly, are home to a bunch of disgusting filth balls who make bad soldiers and bad citizens. The heart country, the south, and to a lesser extent the midwest is where the best troops will come from (did I forget Alaska?).

[Greyblades]

No, not at all. It is the reason why when we don't have a religion, we must create one out of our own beliefs (Darwinism, etc). I am not bashing religion, simply the human tendency toward dependence that makes us NEED one. Many people believe in a religion not because they have been genuinely convinced through sound reason, but because it is 'easy' for them, because now the responsibility for their lives is on someone else's shoulders. Which is to say, they have a parent figure (something that humans naturally crave...it is a type of laziness). Whether it is Mother Earth nurturing them, or Allah, or the Christian God, or even the parental figure of a socialist government that keeps them safe and provides for them, like children, they need that nurturing authority figure. It is easier, surer, and less frightening to live a dependent and miserable life than to live a satisfying independent life...or to crash and burn of your own accord. Most of life's problems can be traced to that fear, and that need for a parent figure.

Ok it just came realy out of left field is all.

[Centurion1]

the point is half 75% of america is unable to serve for various reasons and that even wisconsin which has decent citizens for the military say compared to NY or california is nowhere like the south. the US doesnt have this magical desire to serve and be successful in the service the south does.

Edit: go Packers btw

[Greyblades]

the point is half 75% of america is unable to serve for various reasons and that even wisconsin which has decent citizens for the military say compared to NY or california is nowhere like the south. the US doesnt have this magical desire to serve and be successful in the service the south does.

You have 300 million citizens, I think you have enough to justify not having more than 25% in the millitary.

[Centurion1]

greyblades........ more than 25% of our population should be ABLE to serve and not be too fat or crazy or dumb or criminal or addicted or etc.

[Vuk]

greyblades........ more than 25% of our population should be ABLE to serve and not be too fat or crazy or dumb or criminal or addicted or etc.

That is true, it should be closer to 80% of the male population of enlistment age, but that is a US problem, and not the subject of this thread. The US citizenry has begun a degradation process, that is a given, but we still have a high enough percentage of our population who make good soldiers, and just as importantly, who make good war time citizens (though not as high a percentage as could be hoped for). The problem with Europe is that they don't. The Chinese, Eastern Europeans, South Americans, etc are tough nuts and would make good citizens. If they enjoyed a stable government and the budget of Europe, they would destroy Western Europe and probably would be able to destroy the US. They have far greater potential to be good citizens and soldiers than Western Europeans.

Not meaning to insult any one person in particular, but most Western Europeans just stink. :P

[Centurion1]

south americans? bwahahaha do they get siestas?

[Vuk]

the point is half 75% of america is unable to serve for various reasons and that even wisconsin which has decent citizens for the military say compared to NY or california is nowhere like the south. the US doesnt have this magical desire to serve and be successful in the service the south does.

Edit: go Packers btw

lol, I am hoping the Pack gets smashed (sorry, not a fan).
I never said that all of the US has good citizens, but we have enough to still be a power. (In fact, I was talking about Europe's problem, and never claimed that the US did not have one. It is rather irrelevant in fact to my argument)
The point is that the only country in Western Europe of any size that perhaps has the types of citizens that make good soldiers are Spain, and it is too racked with problems right now to do anything. America is great, America sucks, whatever! It is not important to my argument about Europe. The only part of my argument that concerns America is that the US DOES have troops who make good soldiers (whether they come from the South or not). Particularly, I think that we should nuke our East coast and give our west coast a stern warning and one chance before we nuke them too. :P (oh yeah, and Illinois. )

[Centurion1]

England has good troops. Australians make good soldiers. The Germans military mind set was ruined to some extent after losing two world wars but they have (or at least used to) have a militaristic culture. spain is a joke. Norway has decent soldiers as does finland

[Vuk]

England has good troops. Australians make good soldiers. The Germans military mind set was ruined to some extent after losing two world wars but they have (or at least used to) have a militaristic culture. spain is a joke. Norway has decent soldiers as does finland

England has some potential for good soldiers and citizens. Australia has a lot (quite possibly a lot more than the US does). The Germans are a joke. The French are pathetic. Spain is ruined. etc.
I gotta disagree with you about Norway. I have a lot of Norwegian heritage, and such they hold a special place in my heart, but I think it would be generous to say that they have a little potential.

[Centurion1]

they have a good military and a mandatory draft.

[Greyblades]

Ok then I'm obivously tired and I'm going to bed soon but I will ask afew questions:

Do you know any Europeans? Face to face instead of inside a forum? What about our potential soldiers, have you met one? How about our millitaries, have you got some special access to our recruiting figures? Our medical records? Specifically our reports on the viability of new recruits? Have you gotten some information that indicates what you are saying?

In other words: Do you know what you are talking about?

[gaelic cowboy]

England has some potential for good soldiers and citizens. Australia has a lot (quite possibly a lot more than the US does). The Germans are a joke. The French are pathetic. Spain is ruined. etc.
I gotta disagree with you about Norway. I have a lot of Norwegian heritage, and such they hold a special place in my heart, but I think it would be generous to say that they have a little potential.

France has no potential fo breeding soldiers, would this be the same France with bases all over North Africa and plenty youth unemployment, I bet the french army has no problem recruiting stout lads.

Germany is no joke that is plain for all to see.

Spain, I recall reading recently they had a new recruitment drive and it was easily oversupplied.

[gaelic cowboy]

Have you ever talked to or even seen a european soldier, or are you just basing this on some op-ed in a US newspaper.??

I have never heard of any recruitment problems in any Western European armies ever. Ireland has a microscopic army with a tiny budget but they never have a recruitment problem I ever heard of, usually the only way to get in is through a cadetship from university(officer programme). I think this idea that somehow people are incapable mentally of serving in an army is rubbish, if we had the money even more people would join cos we can be just as patriotic as you Vuk

The real problem for any military is money, how and where it is spent(in our case if we even have any), all of that impacts on training which affects the ability of the troops to fight but the potential recruits are prob still pretty much the same.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Have you ever talked to or even seen a european soldier, or are you just basing this on some op-ed in a US newspaper.??

I have never heard of any recruitment problems in any Western European armies ever. Ireland has a microscopic army with a tiny budget but they never have a recruitment problem I ever heard of, usually the only way to get in is through a cadetship from university(officer programme). I think this idea that somehow people are incapable mentally of serving in an army is rubbish, if we had the money even more people would join cos we can be just as patriotic as you Vuk

The real problem for any military is money, how and where it is spent(in our case if we even have any), all of that impacts on training which affects the ability of the troops to fight but the potential recruits are prob still pretty much the same.

The Irish produce some of the best soldiers in the world, and you fight like demons for the British Crown so I hate to think how you'd fight to defend Ireland.

Vuk is also wrong about the French military, it is operationally very good but badly used by its political masters.

I'm sorry Vuk, but what you are saying doesn't jive with anything I have EVER read about military power. The consensus I have always seen is that america is top dog because it has the best gear, but it has historically suffered from dicipline and moral problems.

Oh, you know who else make great soldiers?

The Swiss.

[Vuk]

The Irish produce some of the best soldiers in the world, and you fight like demons for the British Crown so I hate to think how you'd fight to defend Ireland.

Vuk is also wrong about the French military, it is operationally very good but badly used by its political masters.

I'm sorry Vuk, but what you are saying doesn't jive with anything I have EVER read about military power. The consensus I have always seen is that america is top dog because it has the best gear, but it has historically suffered from dicipline and moral problems.

Oh, you know who else make great soldiers?

The Swiss.

America has the best gear? Bollox! We cannot afford to equip our guys with the best gear. Germans, Belgians, etc have far better gear, and yet these countries still would fear US Marines. It is not the machine, but the operator.
You see, everything you are going after, tech, etc. is all very good, but it does not matter if it is given to the wrong people. Could you imagine if the US Marines were drawn mostly from New York and Mass? What a joke!

[Vuk]

Have you ever talked to or even seen a european soldier, or are you just basing this on some op-ed in a US newspaper.??

I have never heard of any recruitment problems in any Western European armies ever. Ireland has a microscopic army with a tiny budget but they never have a recruitment problem I ever heard of, usually the only way to get in is through a cadetship from university(officer programme). I think this idea that somehow people are incapable mentally of serving in an army is rubbish, if we had the money even more people would join cos we can be just as patriotic as you Vuk

The real problem for any military is money, how and where it is spent(in our case if we even have any), all of that impacts on training which affects the ability of the troops to fight but the potential recruits are prob still pretty much the same.

No, you are wrong. Money is only half the problem. First of all, when I am talking about Europe, I am not including the Britain or Ireland, as they are not (to the best of my knowledge) part of political or geographical Europe.
The only military (major military that is) in Europe with even close to the type of discipline that makes good soldiers is Germany, and they are still far, far off the mark. Good military discipline makes good citizens. Good citizens make good soldiers. I highly doubt that there are enough citizens in any major country in Europe that would allow that country to fight a sustained war. Right now their militaries are at a tiny standing level, and they are still rank with discipline problems. Even disregarding that, the non-military population also is not suited to wartime conditions (or willing to endure them).

Have I ever seen or talked to European soldiers? Yes, I have. I have friends in both the German military, and the Hungarian military. (I actually got to attend a seminar in Hungary by a guy who teaches Hungarian specialists hand-to-hand combat) I also know several people in Nato intelligence who have been to many military bases in Europe, and I have talked to them extensively.

[Sarmatian]

No, you are wrong. Money is only half the problem. First of all, when I am talking about Europe, I am not including the Britain or Ireland, as they are not (to the best of my knowledge) part of political or geographical Europe.

Britain and Ireland are both politically and geographically very much part of Europe... Europe stretches from Scandinavia to Bosphorus (north-south) and from Iceland to the Urals/Caucasus (west-east).