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Thread: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

  1. #361
    Member Member Paltmull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    Well, with all this talk of Spartan domination, over at their council, we have every right to be concerned. And now when Sparta has refused to assist the Strategos and instead attacked Pella, I think it would only be common decency to leave it neutral to prove that "the attack on Pella has been done to spite the rest of the Koinon Hellenon" as Diomede so nicely claimed.

    If they don't do that, they will show that they put their own interests before those of the alliance. They will show that they refused to assist in an alliance operation to conquer a city for themselves instead. Nothing wrong with that, perhaps. But if that's the case they should at least admit it.
    Last edited by Paltmull; 02-09-2011 at 18:15.

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  2. #362
    Member Member Greenlizard0.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    This is a tremendous AAR, and I would like to participate.

    I propose the following:

    1 We schould check the status of Byzantium (with our fleet or someting else)
    2 If Makedonia has taken the city, we should liberate it.

    OR

    3 If Makedonia have weakend the city, we should persuade them to join the koinon, and attack them if they don't
    4 We should only attack if they left the city almost undefended (for our strategous to decide)
    5 We should attack with the Atenian army
    6 We should create a democratic goverment there
    7 The citizens should not be harmed or enslaved

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyalio View Post
    "Dear friends,

    Our plans have been fruitfull. Mytilene has now joined the alliance. Praise to Athena and our young commander Doros. I AGREE (On this matter I am neutral) with the suggestions to withdraw the alliance army from Mytilene made by Kairos.

    It also seems the Spartans did not feel that a build-up of strenght was necessary. We were amiss perhaps. We should have seen that their warlike nature would not allow them to sit back.
    However our disagreements over the attacks of Pella an Mytilene might have caused some stir in our relationship. I would request (PROPOSE) ( I agree )a visit from the Spartan ambassador to explain their motives and intentions. We also must explain to them that our actions or decisions are not meant to thwart Spartan influence, but to allow for balance and moderation, lest no vengeful feelings are allowed to build up.

    But assesing the state of our dominion, I think we have done well. I would ask the council at this moment to lay not only their immediate proposals before us, but also their ideas about our future endeavours. Should we hold ourselves to our promise to Sinope and go east? Should we try to establish contact with our brothers in the West? Should we focus on trade or upon war?

    It is now that we must ask ourselves these questions, now that the war with Macedon, which has dominated our speech and our lives, is drawing to an end. For myself I believe a promise is a promise. We must start thinking about aiding Sinope. On the other hand my cousin arrived yesterday from the city of Kyrene. This polis is hemmed between Carthage and our Ptolemaic friends and they are looking for a protector to stay out of any struggles. Maybe we should send some envoys to see what can be done. I PROPOSE (On this matter I am neutral becuase of my proposal) we send a diplomat and a spy to Kyrene.

    Either way we should use this period of semi-peace to re-equip our army. New threaths will appear, and they might prove to hard for our levied forces. Let us not forget Epirus. they want macedonian land, and they care not if it is cuurently controled by us or by Macedon.
    I PROPOSE ( I agree ) once again, as did Leumenes before me, to recall the Athenian army. To gradually disband our levies (only 1 unit of militia hoplites to be maintained) and to replace them with professional hoplites. I also PROPOSE (On this matter I am neutral) to build up military infrasctructure in Athens and trade infrastructure in the other poleis under our influence.
    The same goes for our fleet, the pride of Athens. I therefore AGREE (On this matter I am neutral) with my collegue who spoke before me (Hephaestus).

    Let us not make quick decisions now and speak of all these matters."

    Enyalio sat down and let his slave fetch some refreshments.
    Last edited by Greenlizard0.; 02-09-2011 at 19:03. Reason: Adding something
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  3. #363

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    Quote Originally Posted by Molinaargh View Post
    It's interesting how the Athenians expect the Spartans to sabotage themselves out of their own free will, and vice versa.

    Mytilene remains neutral because the Alliance Army conquered it instead of the Athenian Army, not out of Athenian niceness.
    I don't think you're being entirely fair with this description of events. Demetrias was taken by the Alliance army and didn't become a free, neutral polis. It was a matter of discussion within the Athenian council that such action as was taken in Mytilene was done fairly for the benefit of the Koinon.

  4. #364
    Sovereign of all England! Member Donkey Kong Champion Arthur, king of the Britons's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    It is neutral in Koinon politics. What I think Molinaargh means is that whenever a city is taken by the Allied Army - the city becomes neutral, whenever a city is taken by the Athenoi - the city becomes aligned towards Athenai, whenever a city is taken by the Spartatai... Or at least that's how I interpreted it.


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  5. #365

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    "Young Enyalio again proves his worth to this council. Wise words. Now is the time to think of what our aims are. I AGREE with the proposal to recall our army and to replace the levies with a more professional force. I AGREE also with the proposal to build up our military and trading infrastructures. I AGREE with Kairos' proposal that we leave a small garrison in Mytilene, and reinforce the garrison from within Mytilene itself. But, I would not agree to sending aid to the Spartans at Pella. I would prefer to implore the Spartans to withdraw from their siege of Pella.

    On that matter, welcome once more Diomede, I know that you see the sense of our alliance, and question some of the more....impulsive actions of the , more and more vocal, Spartan nationalists. I would emphasise Paltmull's question. Is the Koinon about shared defence of our shared interests, or in making war on independent states. I believe it should be the former.

    Pella may prove to be costly. Too costly. We have the Macedons hemmed in there. Let them take the pressure from their enemies the Epirotes, let us use the time that buys us to strengthen our military and economic bases. THEN, we will be ready to face down the inevitable Epirote desire for domination."

  6. #366

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur, king of the Britons View Post
    It is neutral in Koinon politics. What I think Molinaargh means is that whenever a city is taken by the Allied Army - the city becomes neutral, whenever a city is taken by the Athenoi - the city becomes aligned towards Athenai, whenever a city is taken by the Spartatai... Or at least that's how I interpreted it.
    Indeed. But I was saying that it was by decree of the Athenian council that Mytilene be a level IV, rather than a level II government, in order to ensure that it was regarded entirely as neutral.

  7. #367
    Sovereign of all England! Member Donkey Kong Champion Arthur, king of the Britons's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    Hmm... I don't really know if the type of government affects the neutrality so I'm going to ask.

    @Molinaargh Does the type of Government of a region affect the neutrality of a polis? Even if the city is taken with the Alliance army?


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  8. #368
    Sovereign of all England! Member Donkey Kong Champion Arthur, king of the Britons's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai




    "Fellow councillors this small Makedonoi force near Pergamon may be small, but it is large enough to threaten the Polis of Pergamon's independence. Not only that but Pergamon at this time serves as a buffer of sorts between Mytilene and the Arche Seleukeia, and I believe it is in our best interests to see to it that this buffer is maintained, as we do simply not have forces to compare to the might of the Arche Seleukeia.

    Therefore I PROPOSE that we with the Alliance army attack this Makedonian force before the Alliance army returns to mainland Hellas."


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  9. #369

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur, king of the Britons View Post
    Hmm... I don't really know if the type of government affects the neutrality so I'm going to ask.

    @Molinaargh Does the type of Government of a region affect the neutrality of a polis? Even if the city is taken with the Alliance army?
    Apparently. This was never expected in the rules. Like many other rules, we are making them up as we go, as need arises.

    Is it your intention to make one of those proposals compilations? Now would be a good time if you are! If not I can do it, no problem.

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  10. #370
    Sovereign of all England! Member Donkey Kong Champion Arthur, king of the Britons's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    I'm feeling rather lazy right now, so I will probably not do it . :P

    I'll try to do it next time though.




    I PROPOSE to reinforce the navy and hunt off the pitares at Krete

    I PROPOSE we leave a small garrison in Mytilene, and take the Alliance army back to the mainland, perhaps to assist the Spartans. I don't think we should attract the attention of the Seleucids by attacking Pergamon or any other city in Mikra Asia.


    PROPOSE we send a diplomat and a spy to Kyrene.


    I PROPOSE once again, as did Leumenes before me, to recall the Athenian army. To gradually disband our levies (only 1 unit of militia hoplites to be maintained) and to replace them with professional hoplites.

    I also PROPOSE to build up military infrasctructure in Athens and trade infrastructure in the other poleis under our influence
    AGREE to all
    Last edited by Arthur, king of the Britons; 02-09-2011 at 22:32.


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  11. #371

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    This session is now over, thanks for all who participated.

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  12. #372

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    Quote Originally Posted by Molinaargh View Post
    Mytilene remains neutral because the Alliance Army conquered it instead of the Athenian Army, not out of Athenian niceness.
    It's neutral just because the name of an army is that of the Alliance? Don't forget who commands the army - an Athenian - and from where his soldiers are - Athenia itself or poleis under its unfluence. Most of the Spartan warriors left the Alliance army and are now fighting their personal wars instead of assisting at the conquest of Mytilene. It was the decision of the council and the Strategos not to influence Mytilene and to leave it neutral since we could have decided differently.

  13. #373

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    Before replying to the below quote, I must apologize for my lack of time. Despite being British I live on an American time zone. Mountain is probably the fairest explanation. Anyway, I shall provide more input if time allows, but first I must read the TWC forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Sempronius Gracchus View Post
    On that matter, welcome once more Diomede, I know that you see the sense of our alliance, and question some of the more....impulsive actions of the , more and more vocal, Spartan nationalists. I would emphasise Paltmull's question. Is the Koinon about shared defence of our shared interests, or in making war on independent states. I believe it should be the former.
    I believe it to be neither. I see our alliance as acting in the interests of the... alliance. Whether that be in an aggressive or defensive manner isn't so much of an issue to me, as long as it benefits our military position. I do of course leave the finer details to those that actually do the fighting, I just advise on whether or not the gods smile upon our poleis, or sometimes our entire alliance.

    I am slightly confused about the whole issue surrounding Pella. We beseiged this city out of spite? Since when? Not only that, but our choice of government will explain our actions? Nay, sir! Our choice of government shall be one which is most appropriate. One that [ooc] allows for the best possible military recruitment of native troops[/ooc], at least I hope so, and will campaign for. I wish for Pella to become the KOINON HELLENON's most nothern military fortress. A strong defence of the rest of Greece, or a base of operations against Epeirote holdings, whatever. I will grant you, my Athenian colleagues, that a military emphasis may make it appear that it is of the Spartan influence, but such is the nature of our culture. I beg your understanding of such a matter. If I were weak at birth I'd have been left in the mountains! War is simply in our blood, as is preparation for it and prevention of it against our (and by extension) and your homes.

  14. #374
    Guest Member Populus Romanus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    Well said, Ephor Diomede!

  15. #375

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    My nation's rival party compliments me... I'm not sure whether to be pleased or concerned. :P

    (Thanks)

  16. #376
    Guest Member Populus Romanus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    You were once an SNP member.

  17. #377

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    Quote Originally Posted by Populus Romanus View Post
    You were once an SNP member.
    This is true, much like how Anakin was once a Jedi... only reversed. :P

  18. #378

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    515 (261 BC)
    The Siege of Pella

    Athenian orders:
    -Alliance Army to return to Hellas and assist the Spartans in the siege of Pella. (Returned, but couldn't assist)
    -Athenian Army levies to be gradually replaced with professional units. (Yes)
    -Military infrastructure to be built up, as well as trade infrastricture in other poleis. (Yes)
    -Spy and Diplomat to be sent to Kyrene. (Fleet and agents ready to sail, but haven't left Hellas yet)

    Spartan orders:
    -Build a Spartan Fleet. (Yes)
    -Immediatly assault Pella. (Yes)
    If Pella is taken:
    -Watch towers must be built to the east and north.
    -Population to be expelled.
    -Level 2 or 3 government in Pella.
    -Garrison army to be trained.
    -Build stronger walls in the city.
    -Thermon to be assaulted and occupied.




    (Click "Show" to view the update)
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    The year of 514 (262 BC) ended with great festivals celebrating the 10 years of the Alliance of Hellenes. In all the poleis throughout the Koinon the date was celebrated, and rivalries were put aside for a few days.


    By the end of the winter, Doros left Mytilene with most of the Alliance Army (a small garrison had stayed in Lesbos) in the direction of Pella, hoping to aid the Spartans in the siege.


    He didn't arrive quickly enough, though. Before Doros could desembark, the Makedones tried to break the siege while the Alliance Army reinforcements hadn't arrived. It was an even battle in numbers, but Antigonos Argeades, the Basileos, had highly trained men and incredible experience leading armies. Both Eudamidas and Damasos were second-rate Spartan nobility, and had stayed under the shadows of greater men up until this point, having little leadership experience. This was their chance to prove themselves.


    The enemy's phalanxes were one of the biggest worries of the Spartan commanders.





    The first priority in the battle was to merge the 1st and 2nd Spartan Armies into one huge fighting force. This was easily achieved while the Makedones were forming their phalanxes.


    The Makedon Basileos charged our hoplites foolishly and where quickly encircled.








    Antigonos Argeades, Basileos of Makedonia, was dead. The enemy's formation went downhill from this point, and the solid merged Spartan Armies killed the barbaroi one by one.



































    Kratetos Argeades, the brother of the dead Basileos, ran from the battle and returned to Pella with the few Makedones that survived.





    Pella was still under siege, but it was now doomed to fall.


    Back in Athenai, new military facilities were under construction.





    And new recruits were being trained to replace the levies of the Athenian Army.





    In Demetrias, the old plan of improving the walls was put into practice. The Makedones wouldn't attack it anymore, but what about the Epeirotes?


    A fleet for the Spartans was built in Mytilene by the order of Hegemon Akrotatos.


    It was ready half an year later, available to the orders of the Spartan Council.


    The assault on Pella began as soon as the Spartans had regrouped and the siege equipment was ready.

















    The last Makedon rider watches as the Spartans conquer the city.





    The population of the city was expelled as per orders of the Spartan Council.





    When Doros desembarked with the Alliance Army, it was to return to Demetrias to see his father, Chremonides, and to await further orders from the Athenian Council.


    In Pella a Tyrannos was put in power...


    ...but not exactly a local one. The Spartans knew if they gave a Macedonian such title he could easily lead a revolt and declare himself Basileos of Makedonia. Instead, an outsider would be put as Tyrannos. The man chosen by Eudamidas and Damasos, commanders of the Spartan armies, was Damasos himself. Eudamidas was already a King of Sparta, while Damasos had no hopes of ever becoming one. Damasos was now Tyrannos of Makedonia for the Koinon, and Basileos for the locals. Rumors say he wrote a letter that began with: "This is the story of how I became the most important man in Hellas..."
    Could Damasos be trusted?



    A watch tower was built to the east of Pella, and another to the north, in order to scout for any barbaroi or epeirotai invasions.


    The Epeirote invasion happened somewhere else. Pyrrhos besieged Thermon with his Royal Army, certainly aware of the growing influence of the Koinon. This would put the two new powers of Hellas very close to direct confrontation.


    Pyrrhos wasn't the only one expanding his kingdom. In Anatolia, the Seleukids and even the Basileos of Pontos were besieging independent poleis. Nikaia fell quickly, while Pergamon is still resisting.


    The current situation of Hellas, with Pyrrhos's Royal Army outside Thermon, the Spartan armies garrisoned in Pella and the Athenian and Alliance armies in Demetrias.









    Council session now open to make decisons on the matters of concern in the year 516 (260 BC). Next year new Koinon elections will take place, and with a small change made by the wise Koinon legislators: they will now happen every 5 years instead of 4.

    Last edited by Molinaargh; 02-10-2011 at 03:00.

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  19. #379
    JEBMMP Creator & AtB Maker Member jirisys's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    Leumenes arrived to the boule. Last year he couldn't assinst because he was in Lesbos, and no ship would be so foolish to sail with only one man in the midst of pirates.

    "I am saddened, shattered, to have missed this great assembly. However my duties as a Somatophilakes could not wait. Yet, I am here, hoping to propose wise legislation. My friends, I am glad to see that Pella was taken, yet in my mind, I would have hoped the spartans to retreat, as they have pushed us so far north it will be difficult to hold of the Epirotes and the Barbaroi tribes, yet I will show very strong willing commitment to help the spartans in their defense.
    First off, I believe we should recruit a professional army in Lesbos (and a great general to lead them) to fend off the Seleukid attacks, of course, in due time, declare war to them. We must let Pergamon to be free (Eleutheroi) and defend them if they cannot, if we do declare war, leave multiple forts so that they are easily reinforced by the allied army outiside. If they are not disturbed however, we should go to Sinope and at last liberate them from the Pontic rule, however we must be weary, as such we should leave a strong garrison in Lesbos and in Sinope. The athenian army is to conquer the outlying regions around the Aegean such as Chersonesos Thraikia so we may not be sorrounded by the Barbaroi. This is rash, I understand, but if the Getai attack Pella, we would be sorrounded and unable to get reinforcements. The allied army should in all instances try to mantain control of Aitolia, not letting it under Epirot rule. The attack and defeat on Pella was a bad tactical move; as it would leave the city prone to attack from two armies and without the ability to acquire reinforcements from the other side."

    "I am glad to be in the Boule this year my friends, I will hand the orator the parchment of the proposals"

    I PROPOSE we recruit an independent army ASAP in the next few years in Lesbos and to be independent of both the Spartan and Athenian wishes (meaning it can only build lvl IV govs. and the army, along with their captured cities are neutral to either poleis' causes.), only the polis who controls the strategos can give orders to it (I guess, if not just make the damned army). (LONG TERM PLAN)
    I PROPOSE we recruit an allied general to lead the army (LONG TERM PLAN)
    I PROPOSE we defend the Basileion ton Pergamou if they cannot be able to do so themselves, even if that means declaring war against the Arche Seleukeia.
    I PROPOSE that if we declare war on the Arche Seleukeia that we prevent their access to the Island by building forts in which the Allied army (be it the mainland one or the independent eastern front one) may defeat their besiegers.
    I PROPOSE that if Pergamon is not in danger, that we liberate Sinope from pontic rule with the independent allied army from the east. (LONG TERM PLAN)
    I PROPOSE that if the Getae tribes wage war at us, the athenian army to conquer Bizantion so we have a bigger and more reinforcable front against the Barbaroi. (LONG TERM PLAN)
    I PROPOSE the allied army to keep a watch over Aitolia, not letting Epeiros hold it for one second if they capture it.

    Changes in DARK BLUE
    Long term plans in INDIGO

    ~Jirisys (placeholder es! )
    Last edited by jirisys; 02-10-2011 at 18:50.
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  20. #380

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    And how do you expect a professional army to be recruited in Mytilene in the next 4 seasons? Please be more realistic.

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  21. #381
    Guest Member Populus Romanus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    May I point out how weak the garrison of Halikarnassos is? You may want to look into that while you still have time.

  22. #382

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    The Spartan high priest stands, a confused look on his face. He knows that he and Leumines don't often see eye to eye, but even so, mulling over his proposals has caused a headache. He patiently waits his turn to speak as the Speaker nods towards a couple more minor Athenian nobles. He finally gets a nod of approval and steps forward after taking a sip of wine.

    Friend, how is attacking an independent poleis (Bizantion) justifiable but the conquest of Pergamon, by anyone, is not? For now, this Spartan would like to implore the Athenian senate to vote against such a proposal. If need be you may send your army, or even the Alliance army which you control, back to Lesbos. This will allow for a more long term plan of recruiting and training a capable defensive force.

    I disagree that the conquest of Thessaloniki being a poor tactical move. Without doing so, your proposal to take holdings on our side of the Bosporus would be impractical at best, possibly even impossible, not least because it is a breeding ground for pirates. Pella serves as a major transportation hub within the region and denying it to the Epeirotes makes the defence of Demetrias and our cities all the easier. It is clear that what I say rings with truth,

    - At this point some of the councilors, having overindulged throughout the long meeting begin shouting him down, but he presses on steadily -

    AS YOU ONly... need look at the Epeirote reaction. Pyrrhos wishes to control a third entry of attack into our union, as we have denied him any northern entry. The mountain passes are secured by fortifications, Demetrias' walls are being improved, so it proves to be the only direction of attack that is truly open to him.

    Athenians, if I may be so bold. While you control both the Alliance and Athenian army, I would like to suggest - suggest, not propose - that you send one or the other to protect Lesbos in the mean time. Damasos shall prove himself competent in time and will ably lead the Second Spartan army in the defence of our northern frontier. Meanwhile the Athenian/Alliance (pick one) may defend the mountain passes of Thessaly and the First Spartan army can patrol the northern bank of the Gulf of Corinth.

  23. #383
    Sovereign of all England! Member Donkey Kong Champion Arthur, king of the Britons's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    Quote Originally Posted by jirisys View Post
    Leumenes arrived to the boule. Last year he couldn't assinst because he was in Lesbos, and no ship would be so foolish to sail with only one man in the midst of pirates.

    "I am saddened, shattered, to have missed this great assembly. However my duties as a Somatophilakes could not wait. Yet, I am here, hoping to propose wise legislation. My friends, I am glad to see that Pella was taken, yet in my mind, I would have hoped the spartans to retreat, as they have pushed us so far north it will be difficult to hold of the Epirotes and the Barbaroi tribes, yet I will show very strong willing commitment to help the spartans in their defense.
    First off, I believe we should recruit a professional army in Lesbos (and a great general to lead them) to fend off the Seleukid attacks, of course, in due time, declare war to them. We must let Pergamon to be free (Eleutheroi) and defend them if they cannot, if we do declare war, leave multiple forts so that they are easily reinforced by the allied army outiside. If they are not disturbed however, we should go to Sinope and at last liberate them from the Pontic rule, however we must be weary, as such we should leave a strong garrison in Lesbos and in Sinope. The athenian army is to conquer the outlying regions around the Aegean such as Chersonesos Thraikia so we may not be sorrounded by the Barbaroi. This is rash, I understand, but if the Getai attack Pella, we would be sorrounded and unable to get reinforcements. The allied army should in all instances try to mantain control of Aitolia, not letting it under Epirot rule. The attack and defeat on Pella was a bad tactical move; as it would leave the city prone to attack from two armies and without the ability to acquire reinforcements from the other side."

    "I am glad to be in the Boule this year my friends, I will hand the orator the parchment of the proposals"

    I PROPOSE we recruit a professional army in Lesbos and to be independent of both the Spartan and Athenian wishes (meaning it can only build lvl IV govs. and the army, along with their captured cities are neutral to either poleis' causes.), only the polis who controls the strategos can give orders to it (I guess, if not just make the damned army)
    I PROPOSE we recruit an allied general to lead the army
    I PROPOSE we defend the Basileion ton Pergamou if they cannot be able to do so themselves, even if that means declaring war against the Arche Seleukeia.
    I PROPOSE that if we declare war on the Arche Seleukeia that we prevent their access to the Island by building forts in which the Asiatic Allied army may defeat their besiegers.
    I PROPOSE that if Pergamon is not in danger, that we liberate Sinope from pontic rule with the asiatic allied army
    I PROPOSE the athenian army to conquer Bizantion so we have a bigger and more reinforcable front against the Barbaroi.
    I PROPOSE the allied army to keep a watch over Aitolia, not letting Epeiros hold it for one second if they capture it.

    ~Jirisys (placeholder es! )


    "First allow me to welcome Leumenes back to the ekklesia, and give praise to Ποσειδῶν for granting him a safe journey.

    Leumenes I AGREE to the following of your proposals:

    I PROPOSE we defend the Basileion ton Pergamou if they cannot be able to do so themselves, even if that means declaring war against the Arche Seleukeia.
    I PROPOSE the allied army to keep a watch over Aitolia, not letting Epeiros hold it for one second if they capture it.
    And I AGREE with this proposal, as in I AGREE that we should build forts to block the Seleucid army's access to Mytilene:

    I PROPOSE that if we declare war on the Arche Seleukeia that we prevent their access to the Island by building forts in which the Asiatic Allied army may defeat their besiegers.
    The rest I do DISAGREE to I'm afraid, as they are either unrealistic - as in the case of the professional army raised at Lesbos, or not plausible at this time I think am neutral to. Just like you Leumenes I believe the Spartatai move to take Pella and Makedonia at this time was rather rash. In the same way I find that we should not move against Bysantion at this time, for now let us focus on Pyrrhos and how we should deal with him, should Thermon fall.

    Also unrelated to this I must say that I am pleased that the Spartatai did not enslave the populace of Pella, though I would have been even more pleased had they decided not to expel portions of the population."

    Arthouros handed the orator his proposals and was seated:

    I PROPOSE that we appoint Eugenios Rhodios as the Governor of Rhodos, as the public order in Rhodos is not what it used to be.
    I PROPOSE that we attack the army besieging Pergamon with the Athenian army
    I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Alliance army with fresh troops and ask the Spartatai to help in doing so as well.
    I PROPOSE that, if the Seleucids have taken Pergamon by the time the Athenian army gets there, we should liberate Pergamon and establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV Government).
    Last edited by Arthur, king of the Britons; 02-10-2011 at 21:09.


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  24. #384
    JEBMMP Creator & AtB Maker Member jirisys's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    Quote Originally Posted by Molinaargh View Post
    And how do you expect a professional army to be recruited in Mytilene in the next 4 seasons? Please be more realistic.
    Aren't we allowed to have multiple turn proposals?

    Changes are made, shut up...

    Thank you.

    Friend, how is attacking an independent poleis (Bizantion) justifiable but the conquest of Pergamon, by anyone, is not?
    Bizantion is an independent polis, not a Basileion, as Pergamon is, however in the meantime yes, I believe we should only do it if the Getae attack Pella, if not willing to join the Koinon, then we shall place forts in the region but not capture it, I will clarify my proposal more. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur, king of the Britons View Post
    I PROPOSE that we appoint Eugenios Rhodios as the Governor of Rhodos, as the public order in Rhodos is not what it used to be.
    I PROPOSE that we attack the army besieging Pergamon with the Athenian army
    I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Alliance army with fresh troops and ask the Spartatai to help in doing so as well.
    I PROPOSE that, if the Seleucid's have taken Pergamon by the time the Athenian army gets there, we should liberate Pergamon and establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV Government).
    I AGREE with all four.

    ~Jirisys ()
    Last edited by jirisys; 02-10-2011 at 18:52.
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  25. #385
    Sovereign of all England! Member Donkey Kong Champion Arthur, king of the Britons's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    As you've changed those to be long-term proposals I withdraw my disagreement.

    And I've posted the "Sparte to reinforce alliance army proposal" at their council.


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  26. #386

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    "May I offer my congratulations to Eudamidas and Damasos for their great victory at Pella. I worried that many Spartan lives may be lost, but their leadership, and the skill and bravery of the Spartan warriors, overwhelmed the Macedonians. Now we have Pyrrhos at our borders, they will see Pella as theirs by right. I PROPOSE that we send a spy to ascertain the state of play in Bizantion.

    I AGREE with Leuemenes' proposal that we defend the Basileion ton Pergamou if they cannot do so themselves, even if that means declaring war against the Arche Seleukeia. In addition, and in agreement with Populus Romanus' observation, I PROPOSE that we should do likewise with the city of Halikarnassos. If we are to be at war with the Arche Seleukia and, equally as inevitably, with Epiros, we should retain those independent states between us. At least until we are in a position to concentrate our forces there.

    I AGREE also with the building of fortifications to aid in defending Lesbos from Seleucid aggression. The other Proposals of Leuemenes I must DISAGREE with.

    I AGREE with Arthourus' proposals that we appoint Eugenios Rhodios as the Governor of Rhodos, as the public order in Rhodos is not what it used to be, that we attack the army besieging Pergamon with the Athenian army,that we reinforce the Alliance army with fresh troops and ask the Spartatai to help in doing so as well and that, if the Seleucid's have taken Pergamon by the time the Athenian army gets there, we should liberate Pergamon and establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV Government).

    I believe that we must come to some understanding as to the use of the Alliance army between Athens and Sparte. We must strengthen our own, Athenian army. I believe that, with the forthcoming conflicts we must have very mobile armies, in order to strengthen fronts when necessary.

    With that in mind, Diomede, I will turn you suggestion into a proposal. I PROPOSE that we send the Atehenian army to protect Lesbos. Damasos shall lead the Second Spartan army in the defence of our northern frontier. Meanwhile the Alliance is to defend the mountain passes of Thessaly and the First Spartan army can patrol the northern bank of the Gulf of Corinth.

    I PROPOSE that we train a couple of units of saboteurs and assassins in Athens, and train them for the purpose of undermining the holdings of our neighbours. When the time is right, for instance, we may use them to convince the people of Sinope to revolt, which will save our forces from having to take the city.

    A time of great conflict looms on the horizon for our Koinon. Now is the time for greater co-operation between us."
    Last edited by Gaius Sempronius Gracchus; 02-10-2011 at 21:21.

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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    I AGREE with your proposals.

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  28. #388
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    Leumenes:

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    1. I PROPOSE that if we declare war on the Arche Seleukeia that we prevent their access to the Island (Mytilene?) by building forts

    2. I PROPOSE the allied army to keep a watch over Aitolia, not letting Epeiros hold it for one second if they capture it.

    3. I PROPOSE we defend the Basileion ton Pergamou if they cannot be able to do so themselves, even if that means declaring war against the Arche Seleukeia.


    1. AGREE Arthouros, Demosthenes, Rahl

    2. AGREE Arthouros DISAGREE Demosthenes

    3. AGREE Arthouros, Demosthenes, Rahl


    Leumenes Longterm proposals:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    1. I PROPOSE we recruit an independent army ASAP in the next few years in Lesbos and to be independent of both the Spartan and Athenian wishes (meaning it can only build lvl IV govs. and the army, along with their captured cities are neutral to either poleis' causes.), only the polis who controls the strategos can give orders to it (I guess, if not just make the damned army). (LONG TERM PLAN)

    2. I PROPOSE we recruit an allied general to lead the army (LONG TERM PLAN)

    3. I PROPOSE that if Pergamon is not in danger, that we liberate Sinope from pontic rule with the independent allied army from the east. (LONG TERM PLAN)

    4. I PROPOSE that if the Getae tribes wage war at us, the athenian army to conquer Bizantion so we have a bigger and more reinforcable front against the Barbaroi. (LONG TERM PLAN)


    1. DISAGREE Rahl

    2. DISAGREE Rahl

    3. DISAGREE Rahl

    4. DISAGREE Rahl

    Arthouros:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    1. I PROPOSE that we appoint Eugenios Rhodios as the Governor of Rhodos, as the public order in Rhodos is not what it used to be.

    2. I PROPOSE that we attack the army besieging Pergamon with the Athenian army

    3. I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Alliance army with fresh troops and ask the Spartatai to help in doing so as well.

    4. I PROPOSE that, if the Seleucid's have taken Pergamon by the time the Athenian army gets there, we should liberate Pergamon and establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV Government).


    1. AGREE, Leumenes, Demosthenes, Rahl

    2. AGREE, Leumenes, Demosthenes, Rahl

    3. AGREE, Leumenes, Demosthenes, Rahl

    4. AGREE, Leumenes, Demosthenes, Rahl


    Demosthenes:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    1. I PROPOSE that we send a spy to ascertain the state of play in Bizantion.

    2. I PROPOSE that we should do likewise with the city of Halikarnassos. If we are to be at war with the Arche Seleukia and, equally as inevitably, with Epiros, we should retain those independent states between us. At least until we are in a position to concentrate our forces there.

    3. I PROPOSE that we send the Athenian army to protect Lesbos. Damasos shall lead the Second Spartan army in the defence of our northern frontier. Meanwhile the Alliance is to defend the mountain passes of Thessaly and the First Spartan army can patrol the northern bank of the Gulf of Corinth.

    4. I PROPOSE that we train a couple of units of saboteurs and assassins in Athens, and train them for the purpose of undermining the holdings of our neighbours. When the time is right, for instance, we may use them to convince the people of Sinope to revolt, which will save our forces from having to take the city.

    5. "Just to ensure that all is done in good order. I PROPOSE that we strengthen the Athenian army, preferably with professional units."


    1. AGREE Arthouros, Leumenes

    2. AGREE Arthouros, Leumenes

    3. AGREE Arthouros, Leumenes

    4. AGREE Arthouros, Leumenes

    5. AGREE Arthouros, Leumenes


    Rahl:

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    I PROPOSE again that we should send scouts to the eastern half of Anatolia to find out how strong the pontic and seleucid forces in Mikra Asia are and if Trazpezous is secure or also must fear occupation like Sinope and Nikaia.


    AGREE Demosthenes, Leumenes, Arthouros
    Last edited by Arthur, king of the Britons; 02-10-2011 at 21:58.


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  29. #389

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    "Arthorous speaks wise words and I agree with all he said.
    What means that I AGREE with the same 2 proposals of Leumenes:
    I PROPOSE we defend the Basileion ton Pergamou if they cannot be able to do so themselves, even if that means declaring war against the Arche Seleukeia.
    I PROPOSE the allied army to keep a watch over Aitolia, not letting Epeiros hold it for one second if they capture it.
    And DISAGREE with all other of Leumenes proposals.
    I also AGREE with all proposals made by Arthouros
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur, king of the Britons View Post
    I PROPOSE that we appoint Eugenios Rhodios as the Governor of Rhodos, as the public order in Rhodos is not what it used to be.
    I PROPOSE that we attack the army besieging Pergamon with the Athenian army
    I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Alliance army with fresh troops and ask the Spartatai to help in doing so as well.
    I PROPOSE that, if the Seleucids have taken Pergamon by the time the Athenian army gets there, we should liberate Pergamon and establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV Government).
    I PROPOSE again that we should send scouts to the eastern half of Anatolia to find out how strong the pontic and seleucid forces in Mikra Asia are and if Trazpezous is secure or also must fear occupation like Sinope and Nikaia.

  30. #390

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

    "Just to ensure that all is done in good order. I PROPOSE that we strengthen the Athenian army, preferably with professional units."

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