Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

[fireblade]

Fellow Counsellors,
Might I ask, not for this year, but for the future, that we keep in mind the fate of our brothers on Krete. Surely acquiring such a base of operations would be usefull to control the acces to the aegean. If we are to build a fleet, why not set it to the task of taking that island first?

[Walle]

Fellow Counsellors,
Might I ask, not for this year, but for the future, that we keep in mind the fate of our brothers on Krete. Surely acquiring such a base of operations would be usefull to control the acces to the aegean. If we are to build a fleet, why not set it to the task of taking that island first?

Agreed, once we create a fleet, the first course of action should be to take Krete.

And Jirisys: I agree with everything in your last post, I just lived under the thought that we don't have enough mnai to support several armies. But as long as the economy allows us, I'm totally with you.

[jirisys]

Agreed, once we create a fleet, the first course of action should be to take Krete.

And Jirisys: I agree with everything in your last post, I just lived under the thought that we don't have enough mnai to support several armies. But as long as the economy allows us, I'm totally with you.

Of course, It's progressive, two units at a time (Chalkis and Athenai)... Of Kretai, we must not forget them, but removing Mytilene will bring great trade and cotrol of the lower Aegae.

~Jirisys (Having a fight at the Spartiatai Agoras)

[Unintended BM]

I agree with everything jirisys said. The Spartans have the main force, so they can deal with the mainland Makedonians. There's no point in training an army and giving it to Sparta while we sit back in Athens and do nothing. It would help the alliance more if we went out and liberated Mytilene, Sinope, and Kydonia from the various barbarians controlling them. It would bring great wealth to Athens and the alliance. Whenever the money is available, a navy should be the next priority.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

I AGREE with the recent motions regarding the rebuilding of our (Athenian) army and fleet + the one about paying Krete a visit.

I PROPOSE the author start using the greek names for settlements.

Really though I think that would help with the roleplaying-immersion.

Also I PROPOSE that we enter an alliance with the Ptolemaio, in addition to entering a trade agreement with them.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

T'was I while since I played EB so if KH and Ptolemaio starts off as allies and already have a trade agreement then ignore this proposal

[jirisys]

The spartan assembly, seems they have renounced their athenian advisor's seat (me).

Ban Populus Romanus, he is no longer welcome in this assembly.

~Jirisys (This is getting interesting)

[Molinaargh]

This session of the Athenian council is now dismissed.

[jirisys]

*whistles to his slave so he gets his horse*

Well then Molin, may our decisions be wise and fruitful.

~Jirisys ()

[Unintended BM]

I think the author should give us financial info each update so we can better decide what to do.

[Populus Romanus]

The spartan assembly, seems they have renounced their athenian advisor's seat (me).

Ban Populus Romanus, he is no longer welcome in this assembly.

~Jirisys (This is getting interesting)

Bah! I'd like to see you Athenians kick out a Spartan.
But really, I think you Athenai need to reconsider this whole "no Spartans in Attike" buisiness. It isn't doing anyone any good, and is detrimentaly to everyone. Plus, it is completely pointless. Seriously, what do expect the Spartan army to do, sit around in Peloponnesos for the duration of the entire game? Honestly, if Molinaargh had abided by your instructions, Athenai would have been taken and you all would have been executed by the Makedonians. This speaks for itself, I believe. REPEAL THIS LAW!

[Molinaargh]

269 BC

Athenian orders:
-Create a fleet (Yes).
-Establish a democratic Kleroucheia in Chalkis (Yes).
-Levy more hoplites (Yes).
-Improve the city of Athenai (Not yet).
-Establish more trade (Yes).

Spartan orders:
-Besiege and assault Demetrias (Yes, but...).
-Type II government in Korinthos (Yes).
-Recruit infantry in Sparta (Yes).
-Athenians not welcome in the Spartan Council.

The situation isn't good between Sparta and Athens, as the councilors can't reach any agreements when they meet. Can the Alliance survive like this? (I'll let you decide who is who in the image!)


Korinthos and Chalkis are incorporated in the Koinon Hellenon, joining as free poleis. They do, however, remain more loyal to those who liberated them from Macedonian rule. Korinthos is grateful to Sparte as Chalkis is to Athenai.


The Alliance Army, led by the Spartan King Areus, marched to besiege Demetrias.





Everything seemed to be going well. But then...


Makedonian reinforcements arrived to help Kalos Argeades! Areus thought to himself, "what would an Athenian do?". The answer was "retreat", so he did the opposite. The Alliance Army, led by Areus, stood ground and prepared to defend.

















Those who advised more caution when attacking the Macedonians further north were right. Only a few men from the Alliance Army survived, including the Strategos himself.


The Alliance Army was devastated. Areus demanded reinforcements from both the Spartan and Athenian armies as the Alliance Army was far too weak. Since this was predicted in the Constitution of the Koinon, the reinforcements were sent, even though an objection to this was unlikely given the extreme sitation.


Reinforcements came from Sparte...


From Athenai...


From the Spartan Army...


And from the Athenian Army.


Before some of them could arrive, the Macedonians took the opportunity to destroy the Hellenes once and for all. They underestimated the Koinon, though, sending only enough men to outnumber the Hellenes, men led by nobody important.





This victory softened the impact of the Spartan King's defeat, but the Athenians would remind the Spartans that they only won when Areus had to call for Athenian reinforcements.


The situation was calm once again. The Macedonians stayed in Thessalia for now, but they could march south to Attika at any moment...


It might have been only a political move to gain the favor of the Athenians, but in 269 Akrotatos of Sparta declared his worship to Athena. At this time, Chremonides was doing well as the governor of Chalkis, helping the city in Koinon matters.


Akrotatos wasn't doing bad in Korinthos himself.


Our spy reported that a large garrison protected Demetrias, while a small skirmishing force scouted around Thessalia.


Back in Athens, the creation of an Athenian Fleet was ordered.


And in the Roman city of Arretium, a trade agreement was proposed to the Romans, who accepted it.






The Alliance Army recieved a few more reinforcements from Sparta, and so did the Spartan Army itself. But is it enough to defend from the Macedonians, should they march southwards again?

(I tried some stuff on the screenshots, I think some of them came out too hard on the eyes. Let me know what you think).

This Polis Council must now decide what has to be done in 268BC. I'd like to remind you that this will be the last Polis Council before the Koinon Elections, where a new Strategos will be elected, as well as an Hegemon and a Polemarchos.

[Populus Romanus]

Athenai, I am sure that by now you have heard the terrible news that I, official Ambassodor of Sparte to the Athenai, must discuss with you. I believe that power over both the militaries of Athenai and Sparte must be consalidated under the Strategos for the remaining cycle until elections, due the disasterous defeat which we have suffered. Quite frankly, the forces of our poleis alone, without mutual support, is simply too little to do absolutely anything. If we are to maintain any sort of military capacity, the Army of the Koinoin (which for all effective puroposed does not exist anymore) must be officially joined to the Army of Athenai, under a single command. After the next cycle is through, then my Army of Sparte and your Army of Athenai will officially split again, as both of our poleis will have had time to retrain our respective militaries and bring them up to stength where they actually may be an obstacle to any invader. I, the official Ambassador of Sparte to Athenai, sincerely hope you consider and accept this motion, for the good of us all.

[jirisys]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As we are allowed to create characters...

Councilor Leumenes, very young, but very idealistic, and also very bloodthristy; he is a few of the somatophylakai of Chremonides, a philosopher, reminds the assembly of Aristoteles, or Socrates with comparable wit. Needless to say, he owes the Polis his life, as a free men, from the great demos; yet he is very passionate about the spartai, one of the reasons he is a bloodthristy animal; yet the spartans' lack of thoght and deliberation before one's actions disturbed him.

He stood up, without an inch of fear or respect to any spartan spy present.

"Fellow men, greek, athenian... Spartans... You have been brought a lesson, you see, your stubborness and recklessness has almost brought the WHOLE alliance to it's demise, the allied army, almost utterly crushed, you have weakened our capabilities to protect our own cities so the allied army can pick it's pieces up, because you threw them on the ground; but even beyond your lack of sight, stubborness, recklessness, and the troubles you have brought to this once proud and powerful alliance; if you, had not had the guts, and the idiocy of violating OUR orders, that you shall not pass Attike, only to defend it's polis, NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED; what does the Hegemon have to say about this? NOTHING, at least our polemarchos has spoken out this injustice, this violation of our sovereignity. Now we are weak, possibly unable to fend off a big army, because of your lack of foresight."

He stops and regains his breath, shouting has made him very angry and turned red. But he won't finish yet.

"And furthermore, they have banned all athenians from their assembly. No wonder they commited such... Such... S... There is no word on it that would make the mothers of our soldiers gasp in shock and awe, that an athenian would have to use such foul language. I'm astonished at the lack of... This is pointless, I see now..."

Some men in the assembly are noticeably angry, he marks their seat so he will know who is spying for Sparte.

"Our armies must be rebuilt, and our dead soldiers be handed to their mothers and spouses, we must make sure that this alliance stands in it's foot and we must ask our Kretai friends for help, if unwilling, we should hand out its Tyrannos and install Democracy, so that they can benefit the alliance, at least our actions will help us in the future. As this atrocity of law-breaking, reckless behavior, selfishness, egocentry, self-glorification, stubbornness, and all that that action contained must be punished, severly, without compromising our integrity in this alliance, which at best has become fragile, we must take radical action."

He ended his sentence there and sat down, not before passing a paper to the orator, which read:

I PROPOSE that due to it's lack of ability, that the spartans are not allowed to apply for the Strategos position in the next election.
I PROPOSE that we close our borders to the spartan army indefinately and if necesary, to the allied army, so that if they are going to commit the same act of idiocy, let them not return to home as cowards they proved they are when they are defeated.
I PROPOSE we levy more men, to fortify Athenai and make a visit to the allied city of Kydonia in order to ask fo help, if unwilling, remove it's tyrant so that they support the alliance.
I PROPOSE we do not send reinforcements to the allied army if it's stronger than the Athenian army.
I PROPOSE that we make the spartans allow athenian councilors for this and the next full term (Which would, in turn, cancel proposition II and IV)
I PROPOSE we ask the Euobians to levy some men to help us and Rhodoi to build up our economy.
I PROPOSE we keep asking for trade rights and alliances. We are going to need them in this dire time

He stood up again, saying:
"I know this will anger the spartans, but if they are willing to survive, they must sacrifice their ego, because we are as brave as them, didn't we destroy the traitorous Athenian and Achaemenid forces at Maraton? We must work together, and we tried, but it seems they didn't want to reason with us. We will see that if they are cooperative again, we shall work together, and not for our own glory or interest. I lived in Lakedaimon since I was a child, I admire it's soldiers, but they must also learn to our admire our wit."

He sat down and quietly looked at the pale faces of the spartan spies, once they saw what the athenians were capable of doing once their bold and "spartan-like" actions went wrong.

"You see know my spartan friends" - He said - "We also lose our limbs and blood, but not because of the enemy, but because of you."

The athenians themselves were still appaled and undescisive about if to agree with these radical reforms (mostly because they were said so firmly by such a young man, neither did they know if we was a great man, or a dumb one), or let the spartans be the end of them.

~Jirisys (Hegemon )

[fireblade]

I PROPOSE that due to it's lack of ability, that the spartans are not allowed to apply for the Strategos position in the next election.
I PROPOSE that we close our borders to the spartan army indefinately and if necesary, to the allied army, so that if they are going to commit the same act of idiocy, let them not return to home as cowards they proved they are when they are defeated.
I PROPOSE we levy more men, to fortify Athenai and make a visit to the allied city of Kydonia in order to ask fo help, if unwilling, remove it's tyrant so that they support the alliance.
I PROPOSE we do not send reinforcements to the allied army if it's stronger than the Athenian army.
I PROPOSE that we make the spartans allow athenian councilors for this and the next full term (Which would, in turn, cancel proposition II and IV)
I PROPOSE we ask the Euobians to levy some men to help us and Rhodoi to build up our economy.
I PROPOSE we keep asking for trade rights and alliances. We are going to need them in this dire time

Councillor Leumenes speaks wise words.

I, Glaucon, AGREE with the motions he brings forward.

Might I also add that I am deeply shocked with the news of a spartan commander fleeing the field. It is my express wish that this coward never command an army again, but should be given a chance to redeem himself in battle at a certain point.

I PROPOSE that the spartans allow the Athenian ambassador back in their city immediately, as they seem to need his guidance.

[Populus Romanus]

I PROPOSE that Jirisys be executed inside of the brazen bull for treason, espionage, and unconstitutional propositions that violate the treaties, and crimes against the Koinoin Hellenon.

If this demand is not met, Sparte will withdraw its ambassador from Athenai, dissolve the Koinoin, and declare war. We will also ally with Makedonia.

Muwahahaha!

[fireblade]

It would be best for the spartan ambassador not to make jokes now. A time of dire need is upon us, we must work together, or fall seperately. Bear in mind that it was the actions of your commander that got us in this place.

[Walle]

I PROPOSE that due to it's lack of ability, that the spartans are not allowed to apply for the Strategos position in the next election.
I PROPOSE that we close our borders to the spartan army indefinately and if necesary, to the allied army, so that if they are going to commit the same act of idiocy, let them not return to home as cowards they proved they are when they are defeated.
I PROPOSE we levy more men, to fortify Athenai and make a visit to the allied city of Kydonia in order to ask fo help, if unwilling, remove it's tyrant so that they support the alliance.
I PROPOSE we do not send reinforcements to the allied army if it's stronger than the Athenian army.
I PROPOSE that we make the spartans allow athenian councilors for this and the next full term (Which would, in turn, cancel proposition II and IV)
I PROPOSE we ask the Euobians to levy some men to help us and Rhodoi to build up our economy.
I PROPOSE we keep asking for trade rights and alliances. We are going to need them in this dire time

I DISAGREE with the first proposal. It's not fair that all Spartans should suffer for ones incompetence. They should have the same starting position in the elections as we have. I believe that only an individuals merits should count.
I partially AGREE with the second proposal. As long as that idiot Areus is in charge of the Alliance army, the army should not be allowed through Athenian lands. However, I believe that we should open our borders once a new Strategos Autokrator has been elected.
I AGREE with the third proposal.
I DISAGREE with the fourth proposal. I still believe that the Alliance army should represent the military might of the Alliance, and thus, should be reinforced whenever possible (which means after we have a decent army of our own). But not as long as Areus is in charge of it.
Regarding the fifth proposal. What do you mean by "councilors"?
I AGREE with the sixth proposal.
I AGREE with the seventh proposal.

[The_Blacksmith]

I PROPOSE that a council should garther information about this so called, treason, espionage, and unconstitutional propositions to justify thiese accusations on "Jirisys", and if prooven innocent "Populus Romanus" should have the punishment that he proposes on "Jirisys"

I AGREE with Jirisys's motion, if prooven he is innocent...

I AGREE with fireblade's motion

[diomede]

This Spartan would like to point out that Romanus has already been executed, so such an action against him would be difficult.
Kind of a shame the precautions I suggested prior to attacking Demetrias weren't taken, but c'est la vie We need a smaller army anyway, to save funds for your navy.

[Drag0nUL]

I PROPOSE that due to it's lack of ability, that the spartans are not allowed to apply for the Strategos position in the next election.
I PROPOSE that we close our borders to the spartan army indefinately and if necesary, to the allied army, so that if they are going to commit the same act of idiocy, let them not return to home as cowards they proved they are when they are defeated.
I PROPOSE we levy more men, to fortify Athenai and make a visit to the allied city of Kydonia in order to ask fo help, if unwilling, remove it's tyrant so that they support the alliance.
I PROPOSE we do not send reinforcements to the allied army if it's stronger than the Athenian army.
I PROPOSE that we make the spartans allow athenian councilors for this and the next full term (Which would, in turn, cancel proposition II and IV)
I PROPOSE we ask the Euobians to levy some men to help us and Rhodoi to build up our economy.
I PROPOSE we keep asking for trade rights and alliances. We are going to need them in this dire time

I DISAGREE with proposals II and IV. If we want to survive as independent poleis, we need to work together. Neither Athens or Sparta have the power at this point to stand alone agains Macedon.
I also DISAGREE with proposal I: Areus might have lost a battle, but he won many others. All men make mistakes. As long as this loss remains an isolated event, I say we keep supporting him as our chosen Strategos, until the end of his term.
I AGREE with the other proposals

I'd also like to suggest the following:
I PROPOSE we build a Barracks in Athens that would allow us to recruit Hoplitai. Too long have we sent our men to war with only minimum training and gear.
I also PROPOSE a thorough economic analysis of both city (Athens, Rhodes, Chalkis) and alliance level finances be conducted during the next year (I'd like to see the settlement details screen for each of the 3 and the faction financial report)

[fireblade]

I AGREE with dragonUl's proposals

On behalve of councillor Leumenes proposals II and IV, bear in mind the provisions of proposal V. If Sparta accepts the blame for this defeat, and concedes to post of Strategos to us, we will continue to support the alliance. Consider his proposals to be an ultimatum, in a way. I believe in the sense of cooperation, Sparta should accept the blame.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I'm surprised that Areus is still alive! A Spartan should return with his shield, or on it. Why did he ingloriously flee the field?

Areus can remain as Strategos, but he must redeem himself in our eyes. Not only by winning more battles, but by conspicuous personal heroism, constantly throwing himself and his bodyguard into the thickest fighting, being always the first to charge into battle regardless of personal danger. He must emulate his forefather Achilles from now on.

[Molinaargh]

I PROPOSE that due to it's lack of ability, that the spartans are not allowed to apply for the Strategos position in the next election.

This is beyond Athenian jurisdiction. This proposal could only be made during a Koinon session and then the Spartans would have to approve such a thing, as it is a change to the Koinon Constitution.

And by the time the Koinon session begins, Areus will step down from the position of Strategos, as his term of 4 years will have ended, and will not be able to be re-elected as stated in the Koinon Constitution.

All other proposals made so far are being compiled to be sent to Polemarchos Chremonides. This is the list so far:

Athenian orders:
-Alliance army under Areus not allowed to march through Attike (3 votes to 1).
-Recruit more men.
-Improve recruitment in Athenai.
-Improve the economy of Rhodes.
-Economic analysis of the cities and the Koinon to be made.
-Attack Kydonia if possible (I don't believe there is neither enough time nor men to do this).

There is still time to make changes.

[fireblade]

I have one more proposal to make.
As the alliance army will be unavailable to come to our aid, I PROPOSE to build a fort near Thermopylae in order to block Macedons from Demetrias entering Attika. I propose we garrison one unit of light skirmishers there, in order to give us time to rebuild our strength

[Walle]

I have one more proposal to make.
As the alliance army will be unavailable to come to our aid, I PROPOSE to build a fort near Thermopylae in order to block Macedons from Demetrias entering Attika. I propose we garrison one unit of light skirmishers there, in order to give us time to rebuild our strength

I AGREE. One unit won't be much, but it will give us more time.

[Drag0nUL]

I also AGREE with fireblade

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I PROPOSE that we consider hiring mercenaries whenever they are available, in preference to recruiting our own citizens.

Hiring mercenaries is expensive in the initial purpose, but they cost no more in upkeep, and also hiring mercenaries leaves more tax-paying civilians in the city from whom we get our income. Reducing population is bad for taxation.

Also hiring mercenaries prevents Macedon hiring them instead, leaving their army smaller and ours larger.

[fireblade]

I DISAGREE with Titus Marcellus Scato's proposal. Not that there isn't merit in it, but I would rather have a full overview of our finances (as was already proposed) before hiring a band of thugs, that might as well turn on our city if they don't get adequately paid. Nevertheless, perhaps looking which mercenaries are looking for employment might be usefull, so the council can see what is available/needed to complement our armies. Therefore I PROPOSE that we make overtures to mercenaries (aka, check which ones are available), but refrain from hiring them for this year.

[Unintended BM]

I agree with everything jirisys has said. I also agree with fireblade's last proposal.

As for hiring mercenaries, I think it's fine to supplement our own Athenian troops with mercenaries, but to trust them to win our wars alone would be stupid. I agree with fireblade again. Nevermind what I just said, his is a better idea.

[fireblade]

On account of our recently constructed fleet, I PROPOSE that it maintains a defensive posture for now, defending the harbours of the koinon against possible blockades but not engaging in offensive operations otherwise.