Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

[Drag0nUL]

I AGREE with Walle's proposals (alliance army should come to our aid led by spartan general and then we should unite it with Athens army and march on Demetrias). Also I'd like to join Gaius Sempronius Gracchus's party.

[Walle]

Good Drag0nUL, it seems that we have a party then, already three members. Molinaargh, how often will the elections within the Athenian council be held? Is it also every four years?

[G. Septimus]

well well. This AAR is getting very busy.
Gaius Septimius Severus will be anticipating

[Walle]

Gaius, as leader of our party, could you post a more detailed post about the party, and perhaps add an image or something?

[G. Septimus]

Gaius, as leader of our party, could you post a more detailed post about the party, and perhaps add an image or something?

I am a mere Anticipator as you can see on my post above yours (Walle).
what kind of Athenian uses the name Gaius anyway?
and what do you mean, as a Party ( I know it's Political, but, I don't get it by the image stuff. Move on)
I will Join anyway

[Walle]

Sorry, I didn't mean you Gaius, I meant Gaius Sempronius Gracchus, who created the Koinon Hellenon political party.

[Walle]

I am a mere Anticipator as you can see on my post above yours (Walle).
what kind of Athenian uses the name Gaius anyway?
and what do you mean, as a Party ( I know it's Political, but, I don't get it by the image stuff. Move on)
I will Join anyway

Sorry, I didn't mean you Gaius, I meant Gaius Sempronius Gracchus, who created the Koinon Hellenon political party.

And sorry for double post

[The_Blacksmith]

I AGREE with Walle's motion

I PROPOSE that we should have a look at Athenai, Rhodes and Chaiks buildings, to judge what to improove

I PROPOSE that we should train Spies to see what the Epitotes are plotting

I PROPOSE to start train more Hoplitai and Akontistai and stop training Cavalry...

I recommend that in the furture, that we should be more forgiving on our allied's misfortunes...
further more, let us not forget the deeds done by the Pontic peoples!!

[fireblade]

Fellow members of the Boulè,

As pressing as the need to our allies in Asia Minor might be, or as tempting as a target like Kydonia might be, it is my opinion that the war against Makedon is our most pressing concern. With the army of the alliance at our disposal, we surely have the strength to continue this war, and continue it succesfully.
But, let us not forget what happened only a few years ago, when the spartan strategos attacked Demetrias to rash.
I would suggest for us to bide our time, build our strength and locate the makedon armies before we strike. Once Demetrias is taken, our beloved athens will be secure and we can turn our attention to the aegean, but no sooner.

[Vaginacles]

We Spartans believe that the Arche Athenaia represents the greatest threat the Koinoin Hellenon has ever faced. If the Arche Athenaia wishes to enslave Sparte by dominating us, you can say goodbye to that. Neither Sparte nor Rhodos will ever accept this, and would rather secede (thus killing the AAR) than accept your evil ambitions. The Sparte Nationalist Party will never accept this, and will have all Arche Athenaia members caught showing their faces in the Sparte Council executed for treason and crimes against Koinoin Hellenon.

We Athenians do not seek to enslave Sparta, but you ought to recognize us as first amongst equals. The days of Spartan Hegemony is over, Hellas needs a progessive, innovative Hegemon, not a conservative one.

I AGREE with the proposal to merge the allied army with Athen's army, It should be lead by the Hegemon as Areus has no jurisdiction to command armies. The allied army should march to Athens and relieve our beseiged city.

I also PROPOSE that once Athens is relieved, the allied army march towards Demetrias and Besiege it. Let us fight in their territory where victory would yield benefit, rather than in Attica where victory yields respite.

[Paltmull]

I'm usually not interested in AAR's, but wow, this one's epic!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So..... while the Makedonians are massed around our walls are we to bicker over whose glory is to be the greatest? What remnants of glory will be left to us or the Spartans if our will is subordinate to the whims of a Makedonian King? Shall we bicker over the crumbs that are scattered for us? Shall we learn nothing from our shared history? Perhaps, then, we should replace the owl as our symbol - a symbol of strength and of wisdom - with that of a pigeon; strutting, preening stupidity, living off the scraps from greater beasts' kills.

I propose a party of Koinon Hellenon, whose symbol, Pegasus, is known to us all. Greek unity is where Athens' real greatness lies.

What should we learn from the previous wars between our great cities? What greatness did that conflict bring to us Greeks? What it did was weaken us. What it did was strip us of our finest men. What it did was turn us into barbarian savages, unworthy of our consideration of ourselves as the flowering of civilisation in its grandest form. What it did was allowed those barbarians from the North to strip us of our independence, our freedom.

I am for Athens, but I am for the Greeks. We, good men of Greece, must put aside these petty rivalries and work together. Athens will stand for nought unless it stands within its own power, but that power must be as part of a greater confederacy - of free Greek states, of free Greek men. While we turn toward each other and jab sticks at each other, the Makedonians will stand at our flank and jab spears at us. Our glory will come from our deeds, from the future results of our actions now. History will judge those who sought the appearance of glory over those who sought real Greek unity and success. Let us not repeat the errors of our past. Let us not fall into the power of barbarians because we cannot see or share our oneness as Greeks.

This does indeed all seem very honorable. However, on what basis can we expect the Spartans to show the same respect and modesty? While Athen's ideals will always be those of civilization, culture and education, the Spartans only understand one thing: war. When the Macedonian threat is gone, how do we know that Sparta will not turn against us? I'm not saying that we should be hostile towards Sparta. We need them and they need us. But we should put the power and interests of Athens first. Tell me, Gaius Sempronius Gracchus, when the war is over, how would this unified Greece of yours be ruled? True, both we and the Spartans are Hellenes, but our differences are too great. Unity would not work except for in times of war. Sparta will never share the interests of Athens, they will prioritze military might and nothing else.

I propose that a party is formed that understands the importance of the alliance, but that also understands that these cultural and civilized ideals are not Greek, but Athenian. Athens should work together with Sparta to fend of the Macedonians and perhaps the Epirotes and other foreign threats, but in doing that we must still prioritize the interests of Athens primarily (spreading civilization and ensuring soveregnity, that is).

Anyway, I don't have time to participate that much in this AAR, but if someone feels like forming a party that is a bit less naive () than that of Gaius Sempronius Gracchus's, this is my suggestion.

EDIT: By the way, Molinaargh, do Sparta and Athens share their income equally? Or do Sparta get money from "their" cities and Athens from theirs?

[fireblade]

I propose that a party is formed that understands the importance of the alliance, but that also understands that these cultural and civilized ideals are not Greek, but Athenian. Athens should work together with Sparta to fend of the Macedonians and perhaps the Epirotes and other foreign threats, but in doing that we must still prioritize the interests of Athens primarily (spreading civilization and ensuring soveregnity, that is).
.

It is my personal opinion that these positions are represented by the moderates, a pragmatic attitude if you will.

OOC: and yes, this aar truly is epic :)

[Paltmull]

It is my personal opinion that these positions are represented by the moderates, a pragmatic attitude if you will.

OOC: and yes, this aar truly is epic :)

Hmm, perhaps so. Oh well, consider my post as a protest regarding the ideas of this new party then. :)

Also, I haven't checked what's going on over at the TWC, but the Spartans have formed a party called the "Spartan Nationalist Party". Just a word of warning...

EDIT: Furthermore, I PROPOSE that we take either Mytilene or Krete ASAP, before the Spartans do. We might not have the resources now, but as soon as we do, we should try to expand overseas. We will make those cities flourish from trade and bring wealth to Athens, something that we cannot trust the Spartans to make them do. Freeing Mytilene from Macedon will also gain Athens a new ally, which will in turn increase our political influence in the Koinon Hellenon.

[fireblade]

Athens also has its share of the more independence minded members, the arche athenaia. It seems only natural for cities that have been each others enemies for more than a century (I mean, the spartans took money from the persians in order to maintain their dominance). Yet, for now it seems to be in the interest of both poleis to work together to a certain degree.

[Paltmull]

Are the Arche Athenaia a formal party? I didn't think anyone had joined it.

[fireblade]

I think Vaginacles and Jirsys are both members/founders of the Arche Athenaia, I could be wrong though.

[Paltmull]

Jirsys seems a bit self-contradictory as he in this post completely changes his mind and suggests the forming of the "Party of the wise and just".

I guess we'll have to wait for him to explain whether he is a member of the Arche Athenaia or not.

[Molinaargh]

A small update to the parties and the orders so far:

I've changed the color of the Moderate party to better reflet their stance (neutral). The Koinon Hellenon Party in Athens was created, its members are the "Hellenes". Their leader is Gaius Sempronius Gracchus.

The Arche Athenaia as well as the Party of the Wise and Just only had 1 member each, so they were not formed. I suggest an agreement is made to merge the 2 parties.

Nobody has shown interest in being the leader of the Moderates yet, even though some formally states they are Moderates (everyone who is not in another party is a Moderate).

To answer someone's question (don't remember who), party elections will be held every 4 years as well, together with the Koinon Elections (for Strategos and Hegemon).

Athenian orders:

-Alliance Army comes led by Areus of Sparta (Chremonides will command it once Athenai is no longer under siege).
-The Spartan Army is allowed to move freely through Attike.
-Alliance Army to be reinforced.
-Fleet to blockade the port of Demetrias.
-Scout the north of, gaining information on the Macedoian forces in the region of Pella.
-Liberate Athens, then move the Alliance Army closer to Thessalia (Demetrias).

EDIT: By the way, Molinaargh, do Sparta and Athens share their income equally? Or do Sparta get money form "their" cities and Athens from theirs?

The income is shared between the Koinon, but the city who controls the office of Hegemon has priority in spending it. Sparta has been controlling the Hegemon for 4 years and will keep doing so for the next 4.


This polis session is still running.

Also, here are the party symbols in case anyone wants to use them in their posts or sigs.

Moderate Party


Koinon Hellenon Party

[Vaginacles]

DEMOS, JOIN THE ARCHE ATHENE PARTY! We hold that Athen's interests are that of all Hellens, as what is Greek culture but that of
Athenian culture? Our philosophers, thinkers, great leaders, have all been educated and trained in Athens. Lets not forget that Alexandros was educated by Aristotle, nor forget that it is our city that is the forefront of arctitecture, sculptures, literature, and all things greek. JOIN US IN FURTHERING THE GLORY OF ATHENS! Our polis ought to be Hegemon, Sparta does not have the tactical or military manpower to defend Hellas from foreign aggression, while we are the economic, and naval, heartland of Hellas. What is war but money and ships?

ATHENE FOR THE ATHENIANS, HELLAS FOR THE HELLENS, ATHENE OVER ALL!

[fireblade]

Fellow members of the unbound to another party,(aka moderates)

I, Declare my candidacy for the leadership of the moderate party for the next four years. In this post, I will aspire to liberate both our people and our city from those northern barbaroi, and restore Greece to its former glory.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

DEMOS, JOIN THE ARCHE ATHENE PARTY! We hold that Athen's interests are that of all Hellens, as what is Greek culture but that of
Athenian culture? Our philosophers, thinkers, great leaders, have all been educated and trained in Athens. Lets not forget that Alexandros was educated by Aristotle, nor forget that it is our city that is the forefront of arctitecture, sculptures, literature, and all things greek. JOIN US IN FURTHERING THE GLORY OF ATHENS! Our polis ought to be Hegemon, Sparta does not have the tactical or military manpower to defend Hellas from foreign aggression, while we are the economic, and naval, heartland of Hellas. What is war but money and ships?

ATHENE FOR THE ATHENIANS, HELLAS FOR THE HELLENS, ATHENE OVER ALL!

I join this Arche Athene party of yours. In order for us to be able to push our agendas of Athenian supremacy, I propose that the Arche Athene party and the Sumballomeno meros ton sophou kai dikaiou (Party of the wise and just) join forces.

Maybe we can decide on that first and what name the party should have later (if objections are made)?

Possibly a joint leadership of the party between Vaginacles and jirisys? To show our love for the honourable and glorious Athenian demokratia. And these are of course just suggestions from one who is not the wisest of our assembly

[Paltmull]

Fellow members of the unbound to another party,(aka moderates)

I, Declare my candidacy for the leadership of the moderate party for the next four years. In this post, I will aspire to liberate both our people and our city from those northern barbaroi, and restore Greece to its former glory.

As a member of the Moderates, I support your candidacy. Your proposals have been wise so far.

[jirisys]

I join this Arche Athene party of yours. In order for us to be able to push our agendas of Athenian supremacy, I propose that the Arche Athene party and the Sumballomeno meros ton sophou kai dikaiou (Party of the wise and just) join forces.

Maybe we can decide on that first and what name the party should have later (if objections are made)?

Possibly a joint leadership of the party between Vaginacles and jirisys? To show our love for the honourable and glorious Athenian demokratia. And these are of course just suggestions from one who is not the wisest of our assembly

Leumenes arrived at the assembly, to his dismay after completely failing a test at a new philosophy class for resources and production. Yet he was still uncaring, stating it was an useless subject. Dismayed again, to see that none of the parties he favored (Party of the wise and just and the Arche Athenaia) were falling behind, his party not properly accepted, and the Hellenos party in full strenght. But he entered, yet was intercepted by his friend Arthuoros, with whom he had a conversation about his ideals.
"Good morning my dear friend, it seems you have gone from an extremist Athenian supremacy supporter to an extremist free hellenos supporter. This is will not be taken so lightly, it worked for the Athenian supremacy proposals because there were times of anger and choleric wrath against the spartans, now, to change back so heavily from one side to the opposite, will not have much support. I beg you for the good fortune of Athenai and Hellas, to moderate your proposals, you are very young, these have been tough times in this assembly, but you must learn to calm yourself my friend. Now, let's go inside, shall we?"

Leumenes kept those words in his mind, yet he had too much to think about, his own lack of control could have split the assembly, even the alliance. His words and his delivery were powerful, but he had to learn to only speak powerfully wise proposals. His friend Gaios, brought confusion to his mind for the words he uttered last reunion. A woman of him claimed that his father would not accept her as here bride, so they couldn't see each other, the failed class, the division and failure of his party, and the fate of Athenai and the Koinon were rushing through his mind.

He entered the assembly, spotting his friend Gaios, he then stood up and had an announcement to make: "Dear assemblymen, brothers, from all hellas, Lakonike and Rhodoi, Euobia and Pelopponesos, friends of the Koinon all. I am glad to see that an Athenian has taken the position of Strategos Autokrator, and that the Hegemon will continue in spartan domain for another four years. Yet, Athenai is still under siege, and orders were sent for the Allied army, that they may come with the leadership of Areus, or any other spartan. It seems I have been threatened for death at the Spartan Assembly, so I would like to make an apology, to Areus, for treating him like scum, we have all lost something in this battle, yet it was not their fault, our rivalries prevented us from sending reinforcements, and to send word to the spartans to retreat so they may help them. We thank your sacrifice, for you have put a dent into the makedonian shield. Alas, they have split ours, and we are in time of great need, we must ask for kretan help, or remove makedonian influence in Lesbos. We must prepare military installations in Athenai, and maritime trade in Rhodoi. As times will be tough, we must ask our friends in Euobia and Rhodoi for help, because if Athenai falls, Hellas will eventually fall. We ask the cooperation of the free men of Hellas, Spartan, Korinthian, Euobian, Rhodian, and most importantly, Athenians, to come to our help, that is my first announcement."

I PROPOSE we ask for the Allied army, even if guided by Areus or containing spartan men.
I PROPOSE we go to Kretai to ask for help (and if not, liberate it); or Lesbos to remove the makedonian influence.
I PROPOSE we must build Military installations in Athenai and recruit professional soldiers.
I PROPOSE we must build up our trade and resources in Rhodoi.
I PROPOSE we levy men from Rhodoi and Euobia, and ask the Spartans and Korinthians for soldiers for the army.
I PROPOSE we reinforce the Allied army with our own men.

He waited until the assembly was calm, and went to talk to Vaginacles...

~Jirisys ()

[Vaginacles]

I join this Arche Athene party of yours. In order for us to be able to push our agendas of Athenian supremacy, I propose that the Arche Athene party and the Sumballomeno meros ton sophou kai dikaiou (Party of the wise and just) join forces.

Maybe we can decide on that first and what name the party should have later (if objections are made)?

Possibly a joint leadership of the party between Vaginacles and jirisys? To show our love for the honourable and glorious Athenian demokratia. And these are of course just suggestions from one who is not the wisest of our assembly

I agree with your proposal, i also believe that we should consult each other of our policies and ensure that we are of one mind.

[jirisys]

I agree with your proposal, i also believe that we should consult each other of our policies and ensure that we are of one mind.

Leumenes asked Vaginacles to accompany him outside. Vaginacles, a new member in the assembly, yet older than Leumenes, he looked at him (Vaginacles) with respect and joy, as this would mean that their ideals would join together...

Leumenes said: "Hello, you might know my name now, yet, it seems we have been beaten, our ideals, while similar, have been rejected and the Hellenos party is the strongest... I propose to you, we unite our parties and stay as co-founders, our desicions would be thought out and appointed with our both approvals, founding, even inside the party, as an important one, especially for an Athenian party".

He waited for his response, yet wandering his mind on so many things he needed to clear up.

~Jirisys (sfdagjksafjbjfa)

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Arthouros fair and youthful still in his ways and being in his mid-30's was know for his calm temperament and wisdom first addressed his younger passionate friend Leumenes, and then moved on to addressing the assembly as a whole:

"Dear Philos I share your opinion that we Hêllenes should stand united, and while your hot-headedness have in some inconceivable way offended of the Spartatai I believe that your newfound hint of moderation will be welcomed by them. Of course the ways of the Athenai and Spartatai differ from time to time, as is to be expected in the free world we live in, something that may at times be loathsome and at other times something to give praise to.

Dear members of the assembly I AGREE with the motions carried forward by Leumenes.

Dear members of the assembly, Hêllenes and free men, let us work for the good of Hêllas, this is especially critical now. Even as we speak the forces of the Μακεδόνες τύραννος Αντίγονος stand at our gates, rampaigning Attike looting and burning.

I would propagate for motion that the Arche Athene party and the Sumballomeno meros ton sophou kai dikaiou (Party of the wise and just) join forces as our ideals seems to be alike.


Had it not been for the bravery of the 20 young men who held the Μακεδόνες at bay, then none of us would have been standing here as free men. Let us remember the sacrice they have made, and give monetary compensation to their respective families.
If I remember things correctly only two men of these 20 heroes have returned with alive, Idomeneus of Chalkis son of Aristarchos and Menelaus from our beloved Athenai, son of Phaethon. These men, dead and not dead should be given the according praise that befits their actions.

Lastly fellow Athenians, remember what Pericles once said: “Time is the wisest counsellor of all.”

[Paltmull]

I: I PROPOSE we ask for the Allied army, even if guided by Areus or containing spartan men.
II: I PROPOSE we go to Kretai to ask for help (and if not, liberate it); or Lesbos to remove the makedonian influence.
III: I PROPOSE we must build Military installations in Athenai and recruit professional soldiers.
IV: I PROPOSE we must build up our trade and resources in Rhodoi.
V: I PROPOSE we levy men from Rhodoi and Euobia, and ask the Spartans and Korinthians for soldiers for the army.
VI: I PROPOSE we reinforce the Allied army with our own men.

I AGREE with propsals I, IV, V and VI
For now I DISAGREE with proposal II. All our current manpower should be used to fight the Macedones in mainland Hellas. However, I PROPOSE that we save some of the new recruits for the purpose of taking either Lesbos or Krete as soon as possible.
I am neutral when it comes to proposal III. It is a good idea, but the trade improvements at Rhodos are more important.

[fireblade]

I DISAGREE with Leumenes' motion to seize Kretai. Not unless the threat posed by Demetrias, that dagger, aimed at the heart of attika, is removed, can we consider any adventure overseas. What use is the army to the alliance, if the homeland is left unprotected. Let's not act rash, we have 4 years control over the army of the alliance. Let's not waste those years shipping our men back and forth from Kretai. No, Let's press on the makedons. If we beat the army sieging our beloved city, we can push onwards, and with all our forces concentrated in one place, drive home, maybe even to Pella. The war in the north, fellow citizens, is the reason of the alliance, not some harmless villages on an island that has done nothing wrong since the time of Theseus.

[jirisys]

I DISAGREE with Leumenes' motion to seize Kretai. Not unless the threat posed by Demetrias, that dagger, aimed at the heart of attika, is removed, can we consider any adventure overseas. What use is the army to the alliance, if the homeland is left unprotected. Let's not act rash, we have 4 years control over the army of the alliance. Let's not waste those years shipping our men back and forth from Kretai. No, Let's press on the makedons. If we beat the army sieging our beloved city, we can push onwards, and with all our forces concentrated in one place, drive home, maybe even to Pella. The war in the north, fellow citizens, is the reason of the alliance, not some harmless villages on an island that has done nothing wrong since the time of Theseus.

Leumenes, back in the assembly as Vaginacles was deliberating about the party unifications; overheard what pyrospathos had said, and clarified, with a mild chuckle:
"No, no, no... The allied army will defend the polis while garrisoned in the camp and launching attacks to mainland Makedonia, the Athenian army would go around asking for help to Krete or liberating Lesbos... Forgive my lack of clarity"

He sat down, with a smile on his face.

~Jirisys ()

[Paltmull]

Leumenes, back in the assembly as Vaginacles was deliberating about the party unifications; overheard what pyrospathos had said, and clarified, with a mild chuckle:
"No, no, no... The allied army will defend the polis while garrisoned in the camp and launching attacks to mainland Makedonia, the Athenian army would go around asking for help to Krete or liberating Lesbos... Forgive my lack of clarity"

He sat down, with a smile on his face.

~Jirisys ()

Support my proposal then! We can't send our soldiers to Krete and Lesbos while at the same time using them to reinforce the allied army.