Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

[Paltmull]

Visst, ja. Då nominerar jag endast Doros ifall han mot förmodan inte hinner till Sparte innan året är slut.

Muhahah, nu måste alla ni icke-svensktalande använda Google-översätt, vars översättning är ca 10 % rätt. Jag är så tvetydigt ondskefull!

... Uhm ja.

~Arthouros

Vem släppte in nordborna i Atenska rådet? Jag anar att en viss vaktmästare vid namn Ludens kickar ut oss illa kvickt om vi inte är försiktiga.

He may hold the office, there are no laws against that. Problem is he'll be stuck in Sparta. He has literally 0% chance of becoming Strategos, so he is guaranteed to become Polemarchos if he runs for the position of Strategos.

There is no downside to this since Chremonides may only run for Hegemon.

He won't do much good though. And if the Strategos would happen to die, the alliance army would be completely useless since no one would be there to take over.

[Molinaargh]

He won't do much good though. And if the Strategos would happen to die, the alliance army would be completely useless since no one would be there to take over.

The Alliance Army would be even more useless should Athens not appoint anybody for the position of Strategos, since in that case there will be no Polemarchos and therefore nobody to replace the Strategos.

[jirisys]

I AGREE.

If Doros is to go through that Spartan agoge, we'd better recruit ships and get him there ASAP. When i suggested that he'd go to Sparta in the end of his 19th year, I had no idea that he would be sent off to Krete.

And since Mytilene is likely to declare it's independence if Pella falls, I also PROPOSE that the next city we conquer is Pella, and not Mytilene.

Leumenes went back to the assembly, and a slave handed him the transcripts.

I DISAGREE with this proposal, as, it would leave us, not the makedonians, between two fronts, the Epirots and the Getae, which may change their alliegances when they want to ripe our lands, therefore; I PROPOSE we invade Lesbos with the athenian army and release our allied Basileo ton Pergamou from the Makedonian irritation.

Arthouros once again addressed the assembly, this time on the matter of who should be the Athenian candidate for the offices of Hegemon and Strategos respectively:

"Doros won a great victory at Kydonia, expanding the range of our Koinon to the people of Krete, and therefore I nominate him for the office of Strategos.

I also nominate Chremonides Aithalidos Attikos for the office of Hegemon."

~Arthouros

"I AGREE with your nomination (as if there was a choice, sadly)."

I also would like to PROPOSE that there be a Boule of the Prytaneis every year, alternating between Sparte and Athenai each year, so that we may both propose measures so we may cooperate (such as, say, asking the spartans to siege Thermon while we buy time and defeat the small armies of Epeiros (this is JUST AN EXAMPLE)).

Leumenes was eager to wonder who was going to be the next Ephor.

~Jirisys ()

[The_Blacksmith]

Kaleros steps calm into the Council, smelling since he came from the Gymnasia

"My friends! i hear words of the Makedonians marching towards the Byzanz! even though our efford they still have strong men in the field, the Epirotes had taken land from the Barbaroi north of Pella this creates a lock of the Makedonian and Epirote troops where the Makedonians cant be to offensive and at the same time are a buffer to the Epirotes, with the Thessalian hills fortified and under Koinon regin, I PROPOSE that we should let thiese imposer greeks east eachother up (motion: dont TAKE Pella) I AGREE with Arthouros motion of building a strong navy to escort the conquers of Krete home, and of the making of Kretan democratic Kleroucheia...

As for the offices of Koinon, i am not to interfere...

I PROPOSE that Damasos is to be the Govenor of Rhodes, we need to organize all the trade from our most of illustrious habour to profit from them

[Molinaargh]

You might want to focus on the elections, councilors, since there is no point in discussing whether Mytilene or Pella should be attacked if all you have is the Athenian Army, which is unable to successfully assault either of them (although it might be - this is only my opinion based on the number of troops).

I request that military proposals specify which army is the one doing the attacking, and I remind you that Athens is almost 100% guaranteed to lose control of the Alliance Army for the next 4 years.

[Paltmull]

The Alliance Army would be even more useless should Athens not appoint anybody for the position of Strategos, since in that case there will be no Polemarchos and therefore nobody to replace the Strategos.

Oh, crap. I suspect this mess is partly my fault. So much for creative solutions

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

OOC

As Damasos is under the command of the Sparte/TWC I don't think we can make proposals for what he should do.

[jirisys]

I PROPOSE we build walls as our primary building in Demetrias, so more makedonians die at our gates, and greeks stay safe inside.

Leumenes, busy with the affairs of life, now 26. He was a scholar administrator in the Akademia, a Somatophylakes of Chremonides, and almost a husband and father. He had little time in the Boule, yet, he knew his situation would change quickly. He stood up, with his breard hanging stadia from his chin.

"My men, we have won a very costly victory, the men lost were too numerous, we lost a fleet to pirates. Yet our trade increases. I am glad to see the koinon working together. I would like to PROPOSE we build a regional Tyrannos in Kretai, as their governor was one, and bringing democracy may cause unrest. Even more because we killed many of their citiziens. Let us leave them to the Tyrannos, as we would not be able to manage it because of it's distance, and a Tyrannos would stop piracy in the area due to it's power to legislate and dictate orders. A democracy on an island far from mainland would be useless, as they would act without support from the other polis. I AGREE with Arthouros Second proposal."

He sat down, having to leave the Boule, for a short time.

~Jirisys ()

Leumenes went back to the assembly, and a slave handed him the transcripts.

I DISAGREE with this proposal, as, it would leave us, not the makedonians, between two fronts, the Epirots and the Getae, which may change their alliegances when they want to ripe our lands, therefore; I PROPOSE we invade Lesbos with the athenian army and release our allied Basileo ton Pergamou from the Makedonian irritation.



"I AGREE with your nomination (as if there was a choice, sadly)."

I also would like to PROPOSE that there be a Boule of the Prytaneis every year, alternating between Sparte and Athenai each year, so that we may both propose measures so we may cooperate (such as, say, asking the spartans to siege Thermon while we buy time and defeat the small armies of Epeiros (this is JUST AN EXAMPLE)).

Leumenes was eager to wonder who was going to be the next Ephor.

~Jirisys ()

Leuemenes stood up, reminding the Boule not to forget his proposals. As it seems his are the only ones not being adressed. Which makes him irritated to have wasted his energy and thought for nothing.

Kaleros steps calm into the Council, smelling since he came from the Gymnasia

"My friends! i hear words of the Makedonians marching towards the Byzanz! even though our efford they still have strong men in the field, the Epirotes had taken land from the Barbaroi north of Pella this creates a lock of the Makedonian and Epirote troops where the Makedonians cant be to offensive and at the same time are a buffer to the Epirotes, with the Thessalian hills fortified and under Koinon regin, I PROPOSE that we should let thiese imposer greeks east eachother up (motion: dont TAKE Pella) I AGREE with Arthouros motion of building a strong navy to escort the conquers of Krete home, and of the making of Kretan democratic Kleroucheia...

As for the offices of Koinon, i am not to interfere...

I PROPOSE that Damasos is to be the Govenor of Rhodes, we need to organize all the trade from our most of illustrious habour to profit from them

I AGREE with your first proposal, as it's almost the same with mine, without the Lesbos invasion though. The second one is not up to us.

OOC

As Damasos is under the command of the Sparte/TWC I don't think we can make proposals for what he should do.

For that same reason my dear partisan.

Leumenes sat down, hoping they would not see his proposals for granted.

~Jirisys ()

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Arthouros spoke briefly on the matters many councillors had forgotten, those brought forth by one of the most prominent members of the assembly, and urged the councillors to turn their attention to these matters:

"Leumenes, on the matter of building walls as our primary building upon liberating Thermon, I AGREE . Furthermore regarding the Boule of the Prytaneis every year that you proposed, alternating between Sparte and Athenai each year, discussing matters of cooperation, I also AGREE"

Arthouros turned his attention to another proposal by an other councillor he had neglected to address:

"Kaleros, I too hold the view that we should let the Makedones and Epiriotai struggle between each other, therefore I AGREE that we should NOT launch an assault at Pella"

Arthouros then remembered another matter of not quite the same importance.

He pulled out a parchment and read a short passage of it:

"Spartan Orders -Population of Pella to be expelled if conquered."

"Let it be said that when Pella is conquered, I PROPOSE we simply occupy the city. How can we win over the Makedonian people and convince them that we provide a better alternative than Antigonos when we treat them no better then their ruler have treated us? We should welcome them after our troops have been welcomed *cough, conquered them* as brothers, and it is my firm belief that this is not the best way to start off such a political relationship. Of course one could argue that we do not need to "win them over", but surely we honourable Hêllenes should prove our higher moral standards to those we vanquish, if we do not, then what separates us from simple Barbaroi?"

And with that Arthouros left the ekklesia, leaving for his humble house, and went to bed.

[Molinaargh]

Election results are in!

It was expected for Areus to defeat Doros in the election for Strategos, but Akrotatos only had a small advantage over Chremonides and the position could have gone either way. Still, the Athenians will now hold the office of Polemarchos for the next 4 years. Polemarchos Doros may command an Athenian Army of 12 units.


The party elections will remain open for now. No member of any party has declared their candidature, but they may still do so. If no members challenge the current party leader for an election, the current leader will remain in power.

With the results announced it will be easier for the Athenians to plan their next moves.

[jirisys]

Leumenes stood up, confident, even so the spartans won the elections, yet he knew they could work together. He stood up.

"I NOMINATE myself as Epistates. I will uphold the rights of every greek and will work for a complete and true Koinon with the members of the other poleis. So we may propser and defeat all our enemies, barbaroi or traitorous greeks."

Leumenes sat down, eager for the response of his proposalsa nd candidature.

~Jirisys ()

[The_Blacksmith]

Kaleros spoke "Leuemenes, im sorry i havent commented on your wise motions, now let me take a look"

Ohh Leuemenes NOW i AGREE with you, building solid stonewalls in DEMETRIAS!

I DISAGREE on the support of tyranny...

I DISAGREE on your motion of attacking Lesbos, the athenian army is too small

I AGREE on you motion to have more "updates"

Im sorry Leuemenes, i just dont see the logic in thiese motions... most of them... BUT, friend... i support your position as Epistates

[jirisys]

Leumenes spoke up:

"I am so sorry, I apologize, it seems I confused Demetrias and Thermon, I meant to say Demetrias. However I understand that the Athenian army is small. But we must relieve Pergamon before the Makedonians expand"

"I thank you for your words, I hope the KH assembly rules on the Prytaneos Boule soon."

Leumenes sat down. He still needed to work in the Akademia.

~Jirisys ()

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Arthouros spoke:

"I support Leumenes both as party leader of Hellas and as Epistates, furthermore as his proposal was to build walls in Demetrias and not Thermon I AGREE on that matter."

Arthouros then went back to sleep.

[Molinaargh]

I nominate myself as Epistates.

The position of Epistates is currently decided through sorting a random Party Leader out of the 4 Party Leadres, not through voting. I agree it's not the best system, so if others back you on your candidature then you'll get the position (it wasn't uncommon for positions in Athens to be sorted randomly).

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

"I will keep this short and to the point. I DISAGREE with the proposal that a democratic Kleroucheia be established in Kretai, for the reasons put forth by Leumenes. It follows, then, that I AGREE with Leumenes' proposal to put in place a Tyrannos there.

I do AGREE with Arthourus that a new fleet, preferably of trireme, be raised.

I vehemently DISAGREE with the proposal that we attack Pella. This war with Macedonia was not sought by us. Are we to transit from one bloody war of attrition to another without pause. Taking Pella will put us, almost inevitably, on a war footing with Epiros, as well as in line of sight of the barbarian Getai tribes. Let the Macedonians at Pella bear the brunt of that aggression, and we can pick up the pieces when we are ready. Our fortifications and garrisons in Thessaly are sufficient to hold the Macedons in check. Let us hold them there, as a sponge, to soak up the urge for war within the barbarian hearts of the Epirotes and the Getai.

I PROPOSE that we be prepared to take Mytilene and then Pergamon from the Macedonians when, and it is a matter of time, they take Pergamon. They will leave a weakened garrison in Mytilene, and their exertions in taking Pergamon will weaken their main force.

We have experience, with Demetrias and in Kretai, of how costly taking a garrisoned town can be. Let others pay that price, let us take the rewards.

Also, we need the income from the trade that Mytilene and Pergamon will bring us. And it will weaken the Macedonian position further. Hold them in Pella.

For the same reasons I believe we should, in whatever way we can, implore the Spartan council to desist from any hostile moves toward Thermon, for now."

[The_Blacksmith]

"How can we praise our selfs as being the light of civilization when we support tyrannos' in krete?!?!" Kaleros yelled across the council

"And taking Lesbos now? with a Makedonian army the size of the Allied and the Spartan army combined? you must be mad, risking everything; the controll of Thessaly, it will say allmost open! its the gateway to Attike, for what to gain? another front; with the Arche Seleukia?! i STRONGLY DISAGREE its a tactical failure!"

"you even wants to attack over sea... with pirates lurking everywhere?!" Kaleros was now almost red in his face, his passion for tactics and... the lives of his friends became.... very apparent...

[jirisys]

"How can we praise our selfs as being the light of civilization when we support tyrannos' in krete?!?!" Kaleros yelled across the council

"And taking Lesbos now? with a Makedonian army the size of the Allied and the Spartan army combined? you must be mad, risking everything; the controll of Thessaly, it will say allmost open! its the gateway to Attike, for what to gain? another front; with the Arche Seleukia?! i STRONGLY DISAGREE its a tactical failure!"

"you even wants to attack over sea... with pirates lurking everywhere?!" Kaleros was now almost red in his face, his passion for tactics and... the lives of his friends became.... very apparent...

Leumenes, shocked at his reprehensal, stood up calmly.

"Us, my dear friend, we must not let our own ideals affect those of Kretai people, if they had a Tyrannos, and, however unsopportive with the Koinon, he gathered many hundreds of men. We have to give the polis their own choice, not to affect them by ours, too much have we done by conquering them, forcing them to support us, at least we should make them have what they so wish, a Tyrannos was supported in Kretai, I believe there would be some unrest with a new type of government when they didn't care for it. Yes, we must be happy when a polis accepts democracy as their government, yet, we must also rejoice, that the polis is given what their people ask, even if that's a Tyrannos or an Allied basileos.

On the note of taking Lesbos. I admit it would be risky, yet we should ask the spartans to support us with the Allied army, so we may flank the island from both sides. Of course we must risk something, but we must be certain that we can win, lifes will be lost, more than enough. However we cannot let the Makedonians control an island in our seas, imagine the pirate raids, the blockades and the invasions to cities, besides, the Kingdom of Pergamon is an old ally, we must not let it fall to Makedonian sword, I do not believe the Arche Seleukeia to attack an island so far from the coast. We must press the makedonians, we must deplete them; if possible, defeat them in-detail: First the army outside when it's besieging the city and then we besiege the city. Many tactics may work, but we need support and men.

Of course a pirate sweep must be taken into measure, building a fleet of powerful navies would grant us supremacy over their silly boats, also, they are a threat to our trade, what Rhodos basically lives upon, sea trade. We must not let them down because of fear, we must attack, yes, but we must think of clever ways to do so. We will not act reckless, do not worry."

Leumenes sat down.

~Jirisys ()

[Molinaargh]

It should be possible to quickly cross from Chalkis to Lesbos, avoiding pirate ships.

The Alliance Army under the Spartans seems to have other plans, going for Pella instead of Lesbos, and are unlikely to recieve orders ("suggestions") from the Athenian council.

The Athenian Army would likely be alone in such endeavor.

It should also be noted that either Chremonides or Doros may command the Athenian army in such an attack. Chremonides's army would have 8 units, while Doros's would have 12, but Chremonides is a more experienced commander. The Athenian Council must decide which man will lead.

[jirisys]

It should be possible to quickly cross from Chalkis to Lesbos, avoiding pirate ships.

The Alliance Army under the Spartans seems to have other plans, going for Pella instead of Lesbos, and are unlikely to recieve orders ("suggestions") from the Athenian council.

The Athenian Army would likely be alone in such endeavor.

It should also be noted that either Chremonides or Doros may command the Athenian army in such an attack. Chremonides's army would have 8 units, while Doros's would have 12, but Chremonides is a more experienced commander. The Athenian Council must decide which man will lead.

That's why we should have a Boule for both factions' Prytaneis... Don't you think?

Why not both? So we have a fullstack on the attack without breaking the rules?

~Jirisys ()

[Molinaargh]

That's why we should have a Boule for both factions' Prytaneis... Don't you think?

Why not both? So we have a fullstack on the attack without breaking the rules?

~Jirisys ()

No.

It is strictly against the rules for the Athenian Council to give orders to the Alliance Army without holding the office of Strategos, or to give orders to the Spartan Army at any time. This is in the law.

I will go extremely OOC in this post. My posts are usually neutral in a limbo between IC and OOC.

It makes absolutely no sense in creating a council for the Party Leaders (Prytaneis are the Athenian Party Leaders, the Spartan ones are the Ephoroi) for a number of reasons:

1) Where would this be created? The TWC or the .org? I can't force people from a forum to register in another one and vice-versa. Not everybody is registered in both forums.

2) It is extremely ahistorical. The Koinon isn't a nation. Where is the Koinon? In which city would this Council be located? The citizens of a polis respond to their polis and to nothing else. It just makes no sense at all to have a "non-polis" council. We already have the Koinon Session which is when the councilors of Sparta and Athens may dialogue between each other.

3) It would defeat the entire purpose of this AAR, which is having two councils in conflict with each other. This division is one of the main reasons this AAR has been fun so far.

4) I see no point for only 7 players to decide what will be done in this AAR, instead of ALL players as it is now.

5) The Koinon matters are COMPLETELY COVERED with the current system. The polis that controls the office of Hegemon controls construction and recruitment with priority throughout all the cities, while the Strategos controls military through the Alliance Army. There is no need for another council. What would it decide? Tax levels? There's nothing else to be done that isn't covered in the current system.

6) If I wanted a huge super-stack of doom to blitz the stupid AI, I'd play single player and not write an AAR. You should try that if that's your thing.

Even if this was passed as law in a Koinon Session, which is when it should be proposed rather than in the middle of a Polis Session such as the one we are in right now, I'd 100% veto it with my powers of creator of this AAR, which are higher than the laws in the first post, because I believe such a thing would make this AAR less fun. There is no argument to be made in this matter.

And believe me, all my efforts here go into making this AAR fun for everyone, or at least for as many people as possible.

Sorry for the huge rant, guys. I've addressed this before and it apparently went unnoticed. This is my final word on the creation of a third and "exclusive for only a few people" council. I don't even know why I should have to write such a huge argument on this, this is as clear as day to me.

Why not both? So we have a fullstack on the attack without breaking the rules?

Chremonides's command would override Doros's because of the number of stars of the generals. You can't have Chremonides command 12 units, only 8. You won't have a full stack either way, only either 12 or 8 units.

[jirisys]

Just No was enough... You're the creator... I wouldn't have asked again... Thanks for your kindness anyways, I feel great now (sarcasm)

No, I meant, Let doros go with an army of 12 on one side of the island and Chremonides with 8 on another side

~Jirisys ()

[Molinaargh]

Just No was enough... You're the creator... I wouldn't have asked again... Thanks for your kindness anyways, I feel great now (sarcasm)

No, I meant, Let doros go with an army of 12 on one side of the island and Chremonides with 8 on another side

~Jirisys ()

Yeah, sorry, I thought I'd erase everything after the "No" but I had already written most of it, so it felt like a waste of effort. Sorry again.

It would in theory be possible to have Doros with 12 units and Chremonides with 8, but I don't think such an army can be raised. There just isn't enough money to pay for it all.

[jirisys]

Yeah, sorry, I thought I'd erase everything after the "No" but I had already written most of it, so it felt like a waste of effort. Sorry again.

It would in theory be possible to have Doros with 12 units and Chremonides with 8, but I don't think such an army can be raised. There just isn't enough money to pay for it all.

Yes... But you could have 12+ unit armies separately, maybe if it would be strong enough it would be possible, however I will propose tomorrow.

And I meant the Prytaneis Boule as a council so that... Imagine the Spartans want that we help them with the Athenian army in a siege, They'd have to come here and propose here, you know. I just wanted to have some kind of an easier bond, but it's ok... Don't worry.

~Jirisys ()

[Molinaargh]

Yes... But you could have 12+ armies separately, maybe if it would be strong enough it would be possible, however I will propose tomorrow.

Keep in mind an army outside a city must be commanded by a general (family member), they can't be commanded by a captain.

[jirisys]

Keep in mind an army outside a city must be commanded by a general (family member), they can't be commanded by a captain.

We have 2 generals...?

~Jirisys ()

[Molinaargh]

We have 2 generals...?

~Jirisys ()

Correct, Athens has 2 generals. Another one should be coming up soon, though.

[fireblade]

Glaucos speaks next. It was clear to everybody that the last years took their toll on him.

I AGREE with the fleet building proposal. Further I would PROPOSE we build up our economy, basic port facilities in Kydonia seem to be the first choice. As we are likely not to be able to attack without the alliance army, I propose that the Athenian army takes a defensive stand for now, and gets ready to aid the alliance army if the need arises.

Also, I decline to run for party leader once more, I'm sure Paltmull could do a great job should he choose to accept this position (ooc: due to real life, I won't be able to commit as much time to this aar as it deserves.)

[Walle]

I AGREE with Glaucos. Furthermore, I would go so far as to PROPOSE that we don't attack any cities for a few years, and hold a very defensive position, making Demetrias a strong outpost with relatively large garrisons in Demetrias and in both forts. I also AGREE with Glaucos on the offensive matter, the only offensive action we should take should be to reinfore the Alliance army, if necessary.

[Hotseat_User]

Guys, this is freakin' great. I'd like to take part but since my machine is broken, I'm only online from time to time. Maybe I can jump on the train, reading the stories a little later. Such a nice idea Molinaargh!