Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

[Tyrfingr]

He is right, It is also important as a major port destination for the persian royal road, as well as having vast gold and silver deposits that are needed to continuing importing grain for Athens. It is a vital economic city for the Seleucids, crippling their access to the Aegean and depriving them with seapower influence outside of the Levant sea. It is clear on the course of action...

I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

We must remember, Men of Athens, That Antiochus will retaliate with many men , we need more defensive troops as well as men that can handle the new slave population of Sardis. Therefore i PROPOSE we equip and train 2000 Toxoloi and 4000 Peltast to man the walls of Sardis, when we feel that these troops are not needed, we can disband them so that they can become military settlers of Sardis.

I agree on all of Vaginacles' proposals! The seulukids must pay for the hundreds of dead in the defense of Pergamon!

However, I must raise the question of the spartans, who are now sailing for Silikia - for who's account are they sailing? Sparta, or their own personal glory? Either way, we the Koinon have no interest in the west and the spheres of the Romani and Karkhēdōn, and a Silikia under spartan dominance would surely threathen the balance of our Koinon, maybe to the cause of civil war. The conquering lust of the spartan kings must be satisfied however, and through my contacts among traders and salesmen across the Mediterraneum, I have heard of Kyrenaia. Their king Magas is surpassing me in obesity, which says alot, and the people is screaming for new leadership. Let the spartans set sail for Kyrenaia, if they must sail anywhere.

Therefore, I propose the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

My other proposal is of a more religious matter. As we speak, we are constructing barracks and training facilities in Kydonia for the future recruitment of the cretans into the koinons' armies. However, I notice that Kydonia lacks a proper place of worship, and men without spirital guidance is men without hope.

I propose that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

I agree on all of Vaginacles' proposals! The seulukids must pay for the hundreds of dead in the defense of Pergamon!

However, I must raise the question of the spartans, who are now sailing for Silikia - for who's account are they sailing? Sparta, or their own personal glory? Either way, we the Koinon have no interest in the west and the spheres of the Romani and Karkhēdōn, and a Silikia under spartan dominance would surely threathen the balance of our Koinon, maybe to the cause of civil war. The conquering lust of the spartan kings must be satisfied however, and through my contacts among traders and salesmen across the Mediterraneum, I have heard of Kyrenaia. Their king Magas is surpassing me in obesity, which says alot, and the people is screaming for new leadership. Let the spartans set sail for Kyrenaia, if they must sail anywhere.

Therefore, I propose the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

"I am of the belief that it is not wise to even try this; the Spartiatai have planned the invasion of Silikia for several years and suggesting them to steer their ships elsewhere would most likely only serve to annoy them and cause tension between our Poleis. It is also not in the Athenian Boule that it is decided where the Spartiatai armies go, but in the Gedrosia of Sparte. *

In other words I DISAGREE with this proposal.

My other proposal is of a more religious matter. As we speak, we are constructing barracks and training facilities in Kydonia for the future recruitment of the cretans into the koinons' armies. However, I notice that Kydonia lacks a proper place of worship, and men without spirital guidance is men without hope.

I propose that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!

To this proposal I AGREE with, though of course the barracks in Kydonia would have to be completed first."

Arthouros was seated.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

* Proposals concerning Spartan armies can be made over at TWC, though as I as said I'm quite sure they would not welcome this proposal

[Tyrfingr]

Rhobrios takes the stand once more:

As I said before, Silikia is in the romani and carthaginian spheres of interest, and an spartan invasion of Silikia will effect all of the Koinon. Must I remind you that it's our athenian trading fleets who provides our league with the gold and silver to fund our armies? We cannot interfere in the western Mediterraneum, not yet. Let us build our strength in the east instead!

Arthouros has shown wisedom in supporting my proposal of constructing a shrine for glorious Athena in Kydonia, let that wisedom shine also on political matters!

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Rhobrios takes the stand once more:

As I said before, Silikia is in the romani and carthaginian spheres of interest, and an spartan invasion of Silikia will effect all of the Koinon. Must I remind you that it's our athenian trading fleets who provides our league with the gold and silver to fund our armies? We cannot interfere in the western Mediterraneum, not yet. Let us build our strength in the east instead!

Arthouros has shown wisedom in supporting my proposal of constructing a shrine for glorious Athena in Kydonia, let that wisedom shine also on political matters!

255 BC: The Recognition of Zones of Interest and Expansion between the Poleis Athenai and Sparte (by Arthouros the Divider)
-Athenai recognizes that the lands West of Hellas and all Poleis West of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Sparte. This with the addition of the polis Kyrene. Athenai shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land west of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Spartiatai expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Spartiatai expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Athenai, then Athenai has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Spartiatai expansion/increased range of influence. Athenai also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Sparte.

-Sparte recognizes that the lands East of Hellas and all Poleis East of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Athenai. This with the exception of Byzantion which shall be a neutral polis. Sparte shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land East of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Athenoi expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Athenoi expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Sparte, then Sparte has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Athenoi expansion/increased range of influence. Sparte also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Athenai.

Arthouros stood up and spoke:

"I trust that you are familiar with this law? You bring forward an interesting point, that the Spartiatai expansion in Sikilia may bring the Koinon too close to the spheres of the Kart-Hadastei and the Rhômaioi. From what I have gathered by their discussions in the Gedrosia, they plan to block the straits of Messana with their fleet, and as the Rhômaioi do not have much of a fleet available to them they will effectively be blocked from interfering in the Spartiatai expansion there. Of course the Kart-Hadastei who have a presence on Sikilia might be harder to avoid war with. Sikilia, being an island, is also relatively easy to defend, something that Kyrenaia, being located on the mainland and close to the Ptolemaioi, is not.

Moving on:

You wish us to focus on the East instead of the West, correct? But that is exactly what we are doing - as when I say we I mean us Athenians, while "they"; the Spartiatiai focus on the West. If the Spartans would infer on our Eastern sphere of interest, then they would most likely make sure that the Polies they take are either neutral or aligned towards them, meaning that it is desirable for us to make sure that "they" focus on the West and we on the East. And I am certain that the Spartiatai would not just sit idly by and wait until they get thumbs up from us to start expanding, while we take Mikra Asia and gain influence, power and wealth."

Arthouros was seated, after respectfully nodding towards Rhobrios.


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OOC:

I AGREE with proposals I and III. I DISAGREE with proposal II, unless a client ruler is necessary to maintain public order. (IIRC, client rulers and allied generals occupy FM slots; which means that the chance of new FM:s being born decreases when you recruit client rulers. If this is not true, I WITHDRAW my disagreement and AGREE instead)

You're right they do take up FM slots, and we do have fewer FMs than the Spartans which wouldn't really be remedied by this- I WITHDRAW my (Proposal II) proposal to recruit a client ruler in Sardis.

And also: who gave our fleet permission to paricipate in Spartan expeditions?! I PROPOSE that if Sparta wishes to use our resourses for non-Koinon business in the future, they come here and ask first.

I AGREE.


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Vaginarcles:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

2. I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

3. Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

4. I PROPOSE we equip and train 2000 Toxoloi and 4000 Peltast to man the walls of Sardis, when we feel that these troops are not needed, we can disband them so that they can become military settlers of Sardis.

1. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull PARTIALLY AGREE Arthouros; "If Doros is still in Mikra Asia then yes I AGREE, otherwise the Polemarchos should be in charge."

2. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull DISAGREE Arthouros

3. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken DISAGREE Paltmull, Arthouros

4. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull


Arthouros:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE that we establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV) in Sardis and that Sardis is to remain neutral in inter-koinon politics.

2. I PROPOSE that we upon taking Sardis look into taking Halikarnassos next and establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) there. Halikarnassos shall not be neutral.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If we follow my plan of neutral Sardis, not-so-neutral Halikarnassos then we will lose one civil war square and gain one civil war square; so after the conquest of Sardis and Halikarnassos, we will not have gained any civil war squares from where we are now. Sneaky huh?

1. AGREE Paltmull

2. AGREE Paltmull


Rhobrios/Jaertecken:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

2. I PROPOSE that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!

1. DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull

2. AGREE Arthouros, Paltmull


Paltmull:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I I PROPOSE that if Sparta wishes to use our resources for non-Koinon business in the future, they come here and ask first. (our ships should fulfill their role in this expedition for some time though. Abandoning the Spartans now would be disastrous for our relations with them)

1. AGREE Arthouros

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Athenai – Strategos = 3 Hegemon = 1

Sparte – Strategos = 3 Hegemon = 4

Hmm... We haven't had much luck when it comes to Hegemon elections...

@Molinaargh Which stats do our Athenian Family members have (management, influence)?