FBI bans Muslim ex-marine from flying

[Hax]

Okay, what the?

March 21, 2011 (CHICAGO) (WLS) -- A suburban man who describes himself as a patriotic, honorably discharged marine is one of 17 plaintiffs in a lawsuit involving the government's no-fly list.
Abe Mashal is Muslim and says FBI agents told him he ended up on the list because he exchanged emails with a Muslim cleric they were monitoring.
While Mashal is Muslim, his wife is Christian, and he says the e-mails were seeking advice on raising kids in a mixed-faith home.
Homeland Security will not confirm whether he's on the no-fly list, let alone why.
For Mashal and his family, "stay-cations" are the new norm.
The economy is not to blame. They say the government is.
Last April, Mashal went to Midway Airport to catch a flight to Spokane, Wash. He never got past the ticket counter.
"I turned around, I didn't even hear 'em coming and I'm surrounded by 30 TSA agents and Chicago police. She comes out and says, 'You're on the no-fly list, you can't fly on any plane and the FBI is on there way here to speak with you,'" Mashal said.
Mashal says what followed was a series of interviews by FBI agents. They talked to him, his relatives, his friends and even a business client.
Mashal owns a high-end dog training business -- a skilled he picked up as a U.S. Marine.
For four years he taught dog handling and marksmanship. He even earned a certificate for completing the military's terrorism awareness program.
Two months after he learned he was on the no-fly list, Mashal says a pair of FBI agents sat him down at a local hotel.
He says they told him if he worked as an informant, they would make sure he could fly again.
"They wanted me to go undercover at different mosques. They told me there are informants all over the area and they want me to find out about certain people for them. The strange part is, I'm not actively involved in any mosques. I've probably been to church with my wife more in the last year than the mosque," Mashal said.
Mashal says he told the agents he didn't think a married father of four should be moonlighting as an FBI informant.
In October, he received a letter from Homeland Security stating there would be no changes or corrections made to his status on the no-fly list.
So, a few months back when the Mashal family wanted to go to Disney World, they drove.
"They're people out there that are bad and if this is the method they're using to find them, it's not effective and we're not safe," said Mashal's wife Jessica.
The FBI and Homeland Security both declined to comment due to the pending lawsuit which was filed on behalf of Mashal and others by the American Civil Liberties Union.
It's believed there are about 8,000 to 10,000 names on the government's no-fly list -- fewer than 10 percent are believed to be Americans.

Apparently, he's not the only one.


I'm wondering whether this is the best way to combat "terrorism". Why would they do something like this? Are they truly idiots? Can anyone tell me!?

[Slyspy]

What is the problem? The man is a trained killer in contact with a suspect cleric.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What is the problem? The man is a trained killer in contact with a suspect cleric.

I hate to say, but that's a fair point. Remember, there was also the army phychologist who went berserk a couple of years ago. The problem with these terrorists is they are exclusively from one religion, but it's hard to pin them down to even one scion of it.

So, you get things like this.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Why would they do something like this?

...because the Islam is a violent religion and this man sought guidance from a radical imam?



teh trolling :

Wake me up when his lawsuit earns him a massive compensation from some bleeding-heart judge.

[Proletariat]

Oh. My. God. He had to drive to Disney Land?!


When will the FBI release American Muslims from the lessthanidealvacationzlagers they've been herded into since 9/11?

[Shibumi]

Oh. My. God. He had to drive to Disney Land?!


When will the FBI release American Muslims from the lessthanidealvacationzlagers they've been herded into since 9/11?

And what if he wanted to visit Disney Land - Paris?

I am not sure you see the point here..

Regardless, this falls under the same category as people having to take their flip-flops off when going through security at the airport. Who watches the watchmen? No, it is not a cartoon or a Hollywood film, I really do wonder.

[edyzmedieval]

I hate to say, but that's a fair point. Remember, there was also the army phychologist who went berserk a couple of years ago. The problem with these terrorists is they are exclusively from one religion, but it's hard to pin them down to even one scion of it.

So, you get things like this.

A Marine, who probably has some of the toughest psychological tests, a soldier who completed the terrorism awareness training and who's been honorably discharged? Come on.

How are you supposed to even know who's a suspected cleric or not? And they have seen the e-mails anyways, they could have acted until now if there was a warning of some sort.

This is mind boggling.

[Hax]

I hate to say, but that's a fair point. Remember, there was also the army phychologist who went berserk a couple of years ago. The problem with these terrorists is they are exclusively from one religion, but it's hard to pin them down to even one scion of it.

That's just stupid. That's not the way to defeat extremism. By behaving like this the chances of radicalisation will only increase.

EDIT: I'm getting a feeling that just being Muslim makes you a possible threat. I'm flying to Chicago this summer. I'm not taking any books on Islam with me on my trip, even though that's one of the subjects I'm going to study when I go to university next year. It's ridiculous, but with a name like mine (thank God my name is not Hussein or Osama) I'd rather play it safe than sorry.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm flying to Chicago this summer. I'm not taking any books on Islam with me on my trip, even though that's one of the subjects I'm going to study when I go to university next year. It's ridiculous, but with a name like mine (thank God my name is not Hussein or Osama) I'd rather play it safe than sorry.

Hah! This spring I'm going to spam your email with mails containing 'terrorism', 'Jihad', 'Zionism', 'brotherhood', 'martyr', and 'hot halal girls'. Just to wake Echelon.

Everybody flying to Chicago this summer, avoid standing behind the Araby looking guy and take that check-in line with the Asians!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's just stupid. That's not the way to defeat extremism. By behaving like this the chances of radicalisation will only increase.

EDIT: I'm getting a feeling that just being Muslim makes you a possible threat. I'm flying to Chicago this summer. I'm not taking any books on Islam with me on my trip, even though that's one of the subjects I'm going to study when I go to university next year. It's ridiculous, but with a name like mine (thank God my name is not Hussein or Osama) I'd rather play it safe than sorry.

Oh I don't dissagree, but it's not that he's a Muslim, it's his contact with a suspected cleric that raises the RED FLAG.

Obviously, the case needs to be reviewed.

[Hax]

Hah! This spring I'm going to spam your email with mails containing 'terrorism', 'Jihad', 'Zionism', 'brotherhood', 'martyr', and 'hot halal girls'. Just to wake Echelon.

Hush, brother, don't ruin the fun. I'll make sure they'll never forget my trip!

[PanzerJaeger]

Abe Mashal is Muslim and says FBI agents told him he ended up on the list because he exchanged emails with a Muslim cleric they were monitoring.

Easy enough.

I'm getting a feeling that just being Muslim makes you a possible threat.

Yes, it does. It is unfortunate, but it is the current reality.

[Jaguara]

The problem with these terrorists is they are exclusively from one religion, but it's hard to pin them down to even one scion of it.

Oh yeah, like Timothy McVeigh and the Unibomber? Or the lesser known Mailbox Bomber (Luca Helder), or the Anthrax envelopes sent by Bruce Ivans, or Eric Rudolph who bombed the Olympics in Atlanta?

Hey, the Jewish Defence League carried out more than a dozen attacks in the US in the late 80's, and yet the 15,000 members of that organization are able to fly just fine...

And as to the "suspect cleric", as people pointed out - is there a list that they publish of clerics to avoid? How are you to know which clerics you are allowed to contact or not? Are there even any non-suspect clerics, or are all of them suspect?

Imagine being an Irish catholic, and that 1/10th of the priests are "suspect" of being IRA sympathysers...and if you go to confession with the wrong priest you are getting on a watch-list...but you have no way of even knowing which priests are OK or not. Basically just toss the dice. What they are really doing in this case is making it "illegal" to be catholic.

They know that this guy is not a threat, but because he won't do what they want him to do (be a spy for them), they are going to make sure he suffers for it.

[Husar]

That's just stupid. That's not the way to defeat extremism. By behaving like this the chances of radicalisation will only increase.

EDIT: I'm getting a feeling that just being Muslim makes you a possible threat. I'm flying to Chicago this summer. I'm not taking any books on Islam with me on my trip, even though that's one of the subjects I'm going to study when I go to university next year. It's ridiculous, but with a name like mine (thank God my name is not Hussein or Osama) I'd rather play it safe than sorry.

When you're back in 10 years you need to tell me everything about gitmo!

No, seriously, no need to worry, either they won't find you in the first place or you can easily slip out through the slit under the door...

That these no-fly-lists are a fascist stain on America's democratic vest is not anything new though and all that because of some fear that's blown out of proportion.
The money may be better invested in making California tsunami-proof as recent events in Japan have show.

[HoreTore]

The efforts by our governments to increase our security are so pathetically useless it would be funny, if not for the gross human rights abuses and the waste of billions of dollars.

Oh well, at least we're not as retarded as Russia.... Yet.

[Hax]

When you're back in 10 years you need to tell me everything about gitmo!

I can make t-shirts: "I bought a return ticket to Chicago, but all I got was a one-way trip to Cuba".

And as to the "suspect cleric", as people pointed out - is there a list that they publish of clerics to avoid? How are you to know which clerics you are allowed to contact or not? Are there even any non-suspect clerics, or are all of them suspect?

That's the issue. What makes a cleric suspect? I'm very interested in hearing their reasoning. If they openly or privately support Shari'ah law? If they think that the behaviour of the US was an accessory to the events of 9/11 (to put it in the words of Feisal Rauf)? What exactly makes a cleric suspect?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Oh look, the government did something stupid in the name of protecting us from terrorism.

It is understandable that they might want to check him out if he was talking with a dody cleric, but once they found out the nature of their converstation I don't see why they couldn't have removed any concerns about him.

[Hax]

Yes, it does. It is unfortunate, but it is the current reality.

The hell? Have we lost all ability for reasoning? This battle against Muslim extremism is fought with Muslims, not against Muslims. Come on.

[Fragony]

The hell? Have we lost all ability for reasoning? This battle against Muslim extremism is fought with Muslims, not against Muslims. Come on.

Being reasonable includes having to discrminate, that is the sad reality. I don't see any reason not to. It's their struggle, not ours. Discrimination will stop when there is no more reason to do so, we have no obligation

[Cute Wolf]

trained killer having in contact with radical clerics are high risk person, there is pretty reasonable things to do.

Here, if you have contact with radical clerics, and you are something important in the army, you'll be blamed on something and got "fatal accident" while in military custody. Radical muslims aren't something to take easy with.

[Hax]

trained killer having in contact with radical clerics are high risk person, there is pretty reasonable things to do.

Well, if that's how it is, why are we glorifying the marine corps? They're suppposedly the elite, the crême de la crême of the United States Armed Forces. But as soon as they're Muslim, they're nothing more than "trained killers". Nothing glorious about that, huh?

Being reasonable includes having to discrminate, that is the sad reality. I don't see any reason not to. It's their struggle, not ours. Discrimination will stop when there is no more reason to do so, we have no obligation

I don't think so. If I were Muslim and I were discriminated against at the airport, I would feel less inclined to integrate into western society or to feel welcome. I think that ludicrous things like these are more helpful to Muslim extremism than allowing a Muslim ex-Marine to board a plane. It's just silly.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Being reasonable includes having to discrminate, that is the sad reality. I don't see any reason not to. It's their struggle, not ours. Discrimination will stop when there is no more reason to do so, we have no obligation

Being reasonable also includes “appeal” and “facts”. Something that isn't really present anywhere in this whole terrorists-are-everywhere scheme.

[rory_20_uk]

Being reasonable also includes “appeal” and “facts”. Something that isn't really present anywhere in this whole terrorists-are-everywhere scheme.

Hear, hear.

If he'd been searched and anything was found, then fair enough. It seems that again due process has been barged aside.

[Jaguara]

Hear, hear.

If he'd been searched and anything was found, then fair enough. It seems that again due process has been barged aside.

Exactly, when it comes to anti-terrorism, there no longer is any "due-process". There is no way to defend yourself, there is no burden of proof. This bypasses the entire legal system in the US, and yet 70%+ of the population seem completely oblivious to the dangerous precedent this represents. All rights are trumped by "security" (even when the threat is miniscule), well don't complain when you find one day that you are living in a police state.

These institutions have lost all perspective. Clearly the contents of the e-mails were not even considered - contact was enough. I wonder if his e-mail had been one complaining about radicalism and extremism if the "system" still would have flagged him...what you want to bet it would? This is simply guilt by association.

When I was young, I remember the cold war slogans, it was supposedly about defending the "American way of life". The Iron Curtain of the USSR and infringements on their citizen's freedoms were portrayed as the greatest evils. The openness of our Western societies was heralded as essential to our way of life. The US would defeat the USSR, and they would do it while taking the high ground and maintaining moral authority! (Or at least appearing to) How could things change so much in just 30 years? Today, our people are freely giving up what we fought so hard to defend...those same freedoms that nobody could take away we now discard like last year's fashion. The constitution is ignored by the government and its agencies, who activey seek loopholes to bypass due process and civil rights. To have thrown away our moral position to the point where we justify torture. The Iron curtain and Berlin wall were evil...but now the US builds it's own walls, both literal and symbolic.

I used to dream of being an American. For my entire childhood (meaning right into my early 20's), I wanted nothing more than that (except for the possibility of being a pilot in the US Air Force). I couldn't wait to get my place in the mountains of N.H., complete with my licence plate proclaiming "Live Free or Die!". I got in fights because I was so pro-American.

Certainly I was an idealist. Certainly, I was naieve and ignored the sins of the Empire that were happening even then. But even knowing them now, I could live with them, because of the other values that I honoured. Because I still felt the US did more good than bad around the world, and because I bought into that ideal of the "American way of life".

I look today at what is happening there (and to a lesser degree throughout the West) and I am greatly saddened.

The USSR could not take away your freedoms. The Terrorists could not take your freedoms. The only people who could take away your freedoms were yourselves...and you let it happen. Don't you see the irony...by changing the dynamic of your society to face them, you have given the terrorists the victory they never could have gotten otherwise.

[gaelic cowboy]

@Jaguara course the big laugh is the fact there is no ideological divide between the political parties in the USA on these points, so the situation is here to stay.

[Fragony]

Being reasonable also includes “appeal” and “facts”. Something that isn't really present anywhere in this whole terrorists-are-everywhere scheme.

There is such a thing as probability. It's an unfair calculation but better safe than sorry. A no questions asked equal treatment has yet to be earned. It isn't fair but perfectly reasonable.

@Hax we have no duty to clean up muslim mess, they will have to do that themselves. Why should I give a crap?

[Rhyfelwyr]

@Hax we have no duty to clean up muslim mess, they will have to do that themselves. Why should I give a crap?

Why should a moderate Muslim give a crap what some extremist Muslim that he doesn't even know does? It's not his personal responsibility any more than it is yours.

[Fragony]

Why should a moderate Muslim give a crap what some extremist Muslim that he doesn't even know does? It's not his personal responsibility any more than it is yours.

He shouldn't. But finding extremists is where our responsibility ends. We owe moderates nothing, a moral appeal won't find a loving home chez Fragz.