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Thread: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

  1. #61

    Default Re: Civil Discord in Egypt this past week...

    The problem is that there are other emerging and re-emerging powers who are all too willing to prop up strong men around the world. Speaking as an American, standing for democracy and human rights is all well and good, but not if it leaves the United States at a strategic disadvantage in a critical region.

    Egypt was a key ally against the Soviets and later against Islamic terrorism. Hopefully this unrest will yield a secular, democratic state that embraces Western values (lol), but President Obama needs to be prepared to deal aggressively with whoever comes to power to keep Egypt in the US' corner.

  2. #62
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Discord in Egypt this past week...

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    The problem is that there are other emerging and re-emerging powers who are all too willing to prop up strong men around the world. Speaking as an American, standing for democracy and human rights is all well and good, but not if it leaves the United States at a strategic disadvantage in a critical region.

    Egypt was a key ally against the Soviets and later against Islamic terrorism. Hopefully this unrest will yield a secular, democratic state that embraces Western values (lol), but President Obama needs to be prepared to deal aggressively with whoever comes to power to keep Egypt in the US' corner.
    As an American, I would tend to agree with you. However, abscense a clear and immediate military threat it is hard to justify to anyone other than Americans that we support a bad regime to benefit us at their expense. Furthermore, where do we draw the line? Can nations continue to support oppressive regimes because it keeps their energy, labor and agricultural prices low? Doing such things also minimizes true acts of international humanitarianism and defense of human rights on the part of Americans.

    There is no doubt that whoever takes the reigns in Egypt must be held accountable by both regional and world leaders. I can think of far worse regimes than the one being ousted in Egypt, and I find it highly likely that a fledgling democracy is going to fail, at least initially, and will require its problems to be ironed out.

    The question is what level of patience do the Egyptians have, and what are their short term expectations? Short of long term financial infusions by multiple world partners, nothing is going to create equality and jobs overnight, but all too often the people involved in fledgling democracies and revolutions expect immediate results. I would hope the education level of Egyptians as a whole would prevent them from the same path as, say, Bolivia.
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  3. #63
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    Unless the wrong people try to gain independence. No one in the EU is allowed (or parts of any country in the EU), of course. Nor in the USA. Nor in Turkey / Iraq. Nor in China...”
    Or in the EU neighbourhood Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia can’t. But Kosovo was able to do so, however Serbs from Kosovo can’t… Err, there is one point in common…
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

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  4. #64
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    Ah ha what did I say earlier he still has a few tricks up his sleeve yet Mr Mubarak, pulling the police back was clever indeed, at first I thought they were refusing to help in the oppression but now I think it was an attempt to let law and order breakdown so the people demand order.
    Looks like you were right about this, the plunderings are actually done by police dressed up as civilians it seems

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Discord in Egypt this past week...

    A Parliamentary regime would work best. The Arab world desperately needs to move away from the idea that power can and should be vested all in one institution, and one man. We need an anti-de Gaulle to establish the Fourth Republic!

  6. #66
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Discord in Egypt this past week...

    I´m for whatever solution makes oil prices go down and not have some religious nut come into charge.
    I have realized a long time ago no good solutions ever come out of that area......only stable or unstable ones.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Discord in Egypt this past week...

    Frankly, it is up to the people to not only demand change, but to keep on demanding change until they achieve a permanent political settlement is acceptable to them.

    Otherwise the inevitable result is one-man, one-vote, one-time.

    If the Egyptian people seriously want a modern representative parliamentary democracy then they have my full support, even if they have to spill rivers of Egyptian blood to achieve it.

    It is their right to have the opportunity to live their lives as legally responsible adults, it is their responsibility to achieve it.

    I'll back them to the hilt, literally.........
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  8. #68
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    I had heard that the Cairo Museum was protected from looters by the protesters until troops arrived.

    Maybe that is why the police didn’t show up?

    Also, what is this about police and army skirmishes?

    The troops are not engaging protesters, is that a military decision or a quite mutiny?


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  9. #69
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Discord in Egypt this past week...

    Will the Islamic Brotherhood accede to power, and if so what does that mean for the Middle East and for the West?
    Initially, no. There is a Dutch specialist in the Middle East who said that the Muslim Brotherhood aren't as extremist as we make them out to be. They are Muslim-democrats in the sense that as of this moment, they are not so much interested in the restoration of the Caliphate or the creation of an Islamic state as they are in the creation of a democratic state in Egypt. Afterwards, we'll see. However, if there are free elections and the Muslim Brotherhood would gain a sizable part of parliament, they'd still have to let some of their statements go in order to create a coalition. But who knows what they'll do? They've already said they're not interested in being in the next government, should Mubarak's reign collapse and free elections would be held.

    The problem is that there are other emerging and re-emerging powers who are all too willing to prop up strong men around the world. Speaking as an American, standing for democracy and human rights is all well and good, but not if it leaves the United States at a strategic disadvantage in a critical region.
    This is the crux of the matter. If you ask me, America is lucky that the protesters haven't aimed their guns at the US, but at Mubarak. Seriously, and now you're going to say "Well, if they pick the wrong party, we should just overthrow the government/declare war/(fill in statement here)". You remember Iran, 1953? You know what happened in '79? Yeah, direct result of Operation Ajax. And now look at Iran, don't they just love the US.

    Egypt was a key ally against the Soviets and later against Islamic terrorism. Hopefully this unrest will yield a secular, democratic state that embraces Western values (lol), but President Obama needs to be prepared to deal aggressively with whoever comes to power to keep Egypt in the US' corner.
    Not a chance. Egypt is a largely Muslim country, of course Muslim values will play a large role in how the country is organised. Is that a threat to the United States? Rashid al-Ghannoushi is the leader of the Tunisian Islamist party, but listen what he has to say about certain things:

    Rashid Al-Ghannushi represents a progressive strain in Islamic reformism, and continuously stresses the need for innovation against social injustice. He underscores the importance of local culture, and an Islamist movement based in the needs of Tunisians and not in "the obscure theories of Sayyid Qutb". He has sided with worker's rights, unionism, and women's education and rights, though those rights are based in Islam and not Western liberal feminism.[2]
    Would you rather deal with a al-Ghannushi or a al-Zawahiri? You tell me. The best part of his party? They're non-violent.

    but President Obama needs to be prepared to deal aggressively with whoever comes to power to keep Egypt in the US' corner.
    Why don't you first wait and see what those "Islamist" parties have to say and what they do before we bomb Egypt into a glass crater, y'know, just in case.

    A Parliamentary regime would work best. The Arab world desperately needs to move away from the idea that power can and should be vested all in one institution, and one man.
    Wonder where they got that idea from.
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  10. #70
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Discord in Egypt this past week...

    Its all up to what standing will the army take. As of now the army seems to be acting calm and they dont seem to have any wish to take a violent measures against the protestors.It could be that they will simply not support Mubarak and so his show is over.
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  11. #71
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    The troops are not engaging protesters, is that a military decision or a quite mutiny?
    Military decision. The army said on Sunday that they would not attack protestors.

    Also, what is this about police and army skirmishes?
    I haven't heard anything about this, sounds interesting!

    I had heard that the Cairo Museum was protected from looters by the protesters until troops arrived.

    Maybe that is why the police didn’t show up?
    Eh, well, the police doesn't have that much authority anymore. There have been over 750 police injured.
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  12. #72
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    I have also hear a little on tourists trying to leave the country.

    While they are worried and excited, they have not been detained or harassed buy authorities or protesters.

    Let us hope that all remain safe.


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  13. #73
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    I have also hear a little on tourists trying to leave the country.

    While they are worried and excited, they have not been detained or harassed buy authorities or protesters.

    Let us hope that all remain safe.
    Don´t know about tourists, but the embassies are evacuating foreign residents.
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  14. #74
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    Well over 1 million in central Cairo. The question of whether this century would be plagued by a reversion to totalitarianism has been answered by the only people who could have answered it.
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  15. #75
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    Make that nearly 2 million, in fact.
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  16. #76
    Retired Senior Member Prince Cobra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Discord in Egypt this past week...

    I think Mubarak is doomed. The dilemma who will take over stays - the islamist or more secular circles. Yet, it is quite likely Israel to find himself in a more hostile environment than it is now. IMHO it is also very important that the USA doesn't try to influence the tide of events. Lessons from past (Iran) showed this is very counter-productive.

    On a different aspect, the Jasmin Revolution in Tunis turned out to be contagious. It already reached Egypt and Jordan. I think any country in the region can be next. Lybia and Syria for example. I wonder how this will affect the Iranian regime that has also become quite unpopular. We may witness serious, even surprising rearrangement in the Middle East.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    Its all up to what standing will the army take. As of now the army seems to be acting calm and they dont seem to have any wish to take a violent measures against the protestors.It could be that they will simply not support Mubarak and so his show is over.

    Kage, I am not even sure if the army can do something for Mubarak. The shah was not saved by the bullets of the army, I doubt Mubarak could be. It will only lead to innocent casualties and radicalize the revolution.
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  17. #77
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Discord in Egypt this past week...

    A good article from the Washington Post. It gives a bit of an insight on how the Muslim Brotherhood functions and what its goals are:


    Misconceptions about the Egyptian crisis
    EGYPT ON Monday continued to teeter between a popular revolution that would remove President Hosni Mubarak and a forcible restoration of order by the police and Army. The opposition called for mass demonstrations on Tuesday; the regime did its best to impede them by canceling trains and other transportation and continuing to block the Internet.
    While Washington and the world anxiously awaited the outcome of that test of strength, debate continued on the stakes and the dangers of the Egyptian revolt. Unfortunately, the discussion has been infected by considerable misinformation. Several common but mistaken notions are in particular need of correction: that the protesters have no leaders or platform; that radical Islamists are likely to assume power in a post-Mubarak Egypt; and that the United States has little ability to influence the outcome of the crisis.
    Though they surprised many in Washington - including the Obama administration - the Jan. 25 demonstrations that touched off Egypt's rebellion were anything but spontaneous. They were carefully organized by an opposition coalition, led by the April 6 movement - a secular organization dominated by young people. The movement originated three years ago, when it organized a day of protests and strikes; its Facebook group has nearly 90,000 members. April 6 is one of several broad secular coalitions that formed in recent years to promote democracy in Egypt. Another, led by former U.N. nuclear energy official Mohamed ElBaradei, has more than 240,000 Facebook members.

    Over the weekend, most of the secular opposition groups and the banned Muslim Brotherhood met to form a joint platform. They called for Tuesday's mass demonstration and worked toward consensus on a platform. This probably will call for a transitional government, possibly headed by Mr. ElBaradei, that would lift political restrictions and lay the groundwork for free and fair elections. The coalition contains business owners, former members of parliament and defectors from the regime, and it has the capacity to oversee a political transition.
    The Muslim Brotherhood remains Egypt's best-organized opposition movement, but so far it has played a marginal role in the demonstrations. Its long-term aim of establishing an Islamic government in Egypt is at odds with what the mostly secular and middle-class demonstrators have been calling for: the democratization and modernization of the country. The Brotherhood, unlike its Palestinian offshoot Hamas, abandoned violence decades ago.

    No one knows how the Islamists would fare in a free election, since one has not been held in Egypt during the past half-century. But many Egyptian analysts believe an Islamist party would attract a minority of voters and would be unlikely, in the short term, to come to power. In the longer term, the best defense against it is well-organized and dynamic secular parties - which will only be possible if the current authoritarian regime is dismantled.

    The most misguided assertion in Washington holds that the United States lacks the capacity to influence the outcome of the Egyptian crisis. In fact, both sides in Egypt have been aggressively appealing for support from the Obama administration, and for good reason - the United States supplies $1.5 billion in annual aid to Egypt, including well more than $1 billion for the Egyptian military. The White House has rightly hinted that that aid is now at stake, and on Sunday Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton finally announced U.S. support for a "transition" to "real democracy." Both in public and in every other communications channel, the administration should be making explicit the connection between future funding for the Egyptian military and that democratic transition.
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  18. #78
    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    Rumor seems to be that Mubarak will announce he will "not run for reelection" come next September. Linky

    If true, I wonder how the whole "staying in power for another 8-9 months" concept will be taken.
    Last edited by seireikhaan; 02-01-2011 at 20:36.
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  19. #79
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    Only watch if you feel up for it. Maybe the stupidest thing ever said about what's going on in Egypt, possibly the stupidest thing ever said on non-cable-access TV:


  20. #80
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Only watch if you feel up for it. Maybe the stupidest thing ever said about what's going on in Egypt, possibly the stupidest thing ever said on non-cable-access TV:

    think of the money you could make if you taxed stupidity on tv.
    the US government might be able to wipe out the deficit.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    Must be nice to have political backing to say whatever you want.
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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    "A month later, Austrian Hungary declared war on Serbia. The rest is World War One."

    ARRRGHHHHHHH

  23. #83
    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALBFBhbVtSI

    Just goes to show that people can be energised to act in society. It truly is fascinating stuff to watch a revolution unfold in front of our very eyes. And we all thought the 21st century would be quiet compared to the last one..


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  24. #84
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    The best part about Beck's analysis is that there will be 3 more days of it, and on Friday he will give us the "big picture" as well as tell us why we "really" invaded Iraq! I can't wait!
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  25. #85
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    I'm waiting for y'all to eat crow and thank the Bush Doctrine for spreading 'mocracy thru out the middle east. Yer kin start by each posting, "I was wrong and Dubya was right".
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  26. #86
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    Well, Hosa, if we're going to credit the Bush Doctrine seven years after our freedom-spreading invasion of Iraq, then I think it's also fair to credit the Monroe Doctrine and phrenology. Although I would be very interested to read what set off the Tunisian revolt, since that seems to be Patient Zero.

  27. #87
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    Haters gonna hate. Bush was a tard, but I think that he was a good man. Many of the people who directed his policy were bright and idealistic. Democracy in the Middle East is a long term goal of both administrations and a domino affect was the hoped for result of stability in a democratic Iraq, however misguided the invasion might have been.

    Nobody has credited Bush for this. In fact, I believe that this has less to do with the United States than many suggest.

    Edit: I think that the thuggery being exhibited by pro-Mubarak supporters in addition to the DOS attacks on Al-Jazeera are concerning, no?
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 02-02-2011 at 15:32.
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  28. #88
    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    Reports of clashes and pro-Mubarak supporters riding into the crowed on camels. These protesters simply weren't present a couple of days ago which suggests a high level of government orchestration. At this point Mubarak being dragged from the residential palace and hung wouldn't be reactionary at all.


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  29. #89

    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Well, Hosa, if we're going to credit the Bush Doctrine seven years after our freedom-spreading invasion of Iraq, then I think it's also fair to credit the Monroe Doctrine and phrenology. Although I would be very interested to read what set off the Tunisian revolt, since that seems to be Patient Zero.
    Well, I'd imagine most would credit the French Revolution of 1789 being some inspiration to the revolutions of 1830 and 1848. And those were stretched over more than half a century.

  30. #90
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Revolt/Revolution in Egypt

    Quote Originally Posted by Noncommunist View Post
    Well, I'd imagine most would credit the French Revolution of 1789 being some inspiration to the revolutions of 1830 and 1848. And those were stretched over more than half a century.
    Well if we're going to play serious all of a sudden ...

    ... I would suggest that while Bush 43 was correct and right-on with his freedom agenda for the Mideast, his methods were misguided. You didn't see folks in Tunisia begging for an American freedom invasion; they took matters into their own hands. And even in Egypt, the opposition figures don't much like or want us, which is fine.

    So if we're to credit Bush 43 with Tunisia and Egypt ... I'm not sure what the method or mechanism is. A general consciousness of freedom due to our spreading it? Or something? Like I said, I would love to read something a little more granular and detailed about how the Tunisian revolt got going. I bet there's a lot to be learned from that.

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