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  1. #1
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    So no in matter of fact the standard US infantry man doesnt fit your standards? So basically there arent any basic level infantry in Western hemisphere left worth their salt.This is just getting better and better. Im sure you just made many new friends, when the real problem is that your buddy should not call himself a NCO if he cant even control if his men are carrying drinking water or not.
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  2. #2
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    So no in matter of fact the standard US infantry man doesnt fit your standards? So basically there arent any basic level infantry in Western hemisphere left worth their salt.This is just getting better and better. Im sure you just made many new friends, when the real problem is that your buddy should not call himself a NCO if he cant even control if his men are carrying drinking water or not.
    Hardly. While U.S. Marines are exceptional, they really are a regular and sizable branch of the military. Despite the problems in the US Army, they are still probably at least on parr with Euro armies, AND they have the Marines to do their dirty work. :P
    Don't get me wrong, not all soldiers are sub-parr, merely the majority of them. I have known and read/heard about many fine soldiers, but on the whole, they are a sorry bunch of buffoons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

  3. #3
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk View Post
    Hardly. While U.S. Marines are exceptional, they really are a regular and sizable branch of the military. Despite the problems in the US Army, they are still probably at least on parr with Euro armies, AND they have the Marines to do their dirty work. :P
    Don't get me wrong, not all soldiers are sub-parr, merely the majority of them. I have known and read/heard about many fine soldiers, but on the whole, they are a sorry bunch of buffoons.
    You shoulod really shut up now. Your original post was full of pretentious assumptions about out country vs a continent based on I assume your touristy travels there, during which you go so far to say that west And east coast americans are scumbags, as well as some midwesterners. You went so far as to say that Marines from New York are ineffective.

    Then, in your classical style, you back pedal in the face of counter-arguments and say you did not mean England and Ireland in your Europe sucks thread. Later, you say you also did not mean Germany or Spain. Frakking wow, man.

    Everything out of your mouth in that thread was presumptive, one-size-fits all drivel followed by changing your argument to fit the ever-decreasing scope of the intellectual paradigm. One does not need military experience to see that. You lost. Admit it. You are offensive.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Relax people. It is all not important, not worth getting worked up about.





    Besides :

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  5. #5
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump View Post
    You shoulod really shut up now. Your original post was full of pretentious assumptions about out country vs a continent based on I assume your touristy travels there, during which you go so far to say that west And east coast americans are scumbags, as well as some midwesterners. You went so far as to say that Marines from New York are ineffective.

    Then, in your classical style, you back pedal in the face of counter-arguments and say you did not mean England and Ireland in your Europe sucks thread. Later, you say you also did not mean Germany or Spain. Frakking wow, man.

    Everything out of your mouth in that thread was presumptive, one-size-fits all drivel followed by changing your argument to fit the ever-decreasing scope of the intellectual paradigm. One does not need military experience to see that. You lost. Admit it. You are offensive.
    um...actually you are quite wrong. I never said that Germany and Spain were not part of Europe, or part of my argument. I also never said that Marines from New York are ineffective, but that citizens in New York tend not to make good troops. Troops from rural areas (who are much more likely to already be proficient with firearms) tend to make better soldiers/Marines than troops from urban areas.
    And no, I did not say that my arguments were 'one-size-fits-all', I said 'in general'. Of course there is room for exceptions, and I in fact pointed some out. Your problem MRD, is that you simply do not read my posts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

  6. #6
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk View Post
    um...actually you are quite wrong. I never said that Germany and Spain were not part of Europe, or part of my argument. I also never said that Marines from New York are ineffective, but that citizens in New York tend not to make good troops. Troops from rural areas (who are much more likely to already be proficient with firearms) tend to make better soldiers/Marines than troops from urban areas.
    And no, I did not say that my arguments were 'one-size-fits-all', I said 'in general'. Of course there is room for exceptions, and I in fact pointed some out. Your problem MRD, is that you simply do not read my posts.
    No, the problem is that I do read your posts, and your arguments change every third or fourth post.

    Virtually no one on these boards agrees with your presumptious post, yet you accuse everyone of "not reading your posts" when in fact that is what is confusing everyone to begin with. And yes, you did back pedal and say that Germany and Spain had the potential to be good militaries (despite them being European along with England and Ireland), and yes, paraprhased or not, you said that New York makes crap soldiers. And through all of this, you even mention that the soldiers of South American countries are somehow superior to European forces again without a shred of practical evidence and then accuse someone who makes a siesta joke of using sterotypes. LOL. If you want to play semantics with us, little boy, you may consider choosing your initial words a little more carefully.

    Your idea that people from the South makes better troops cannot be backed up with a shred of evidence other than the fact that they are the majority of enlisted soldiers, which means virtually squat if you consider that every branch of the military has its badasses, mouth breathers and grifters. In fact, considering there are more soldiers from the south in the military one might reasonably assume that the majority of crapbags are also from the south, due primarily to reasonable statistical chance, right? Not very good science, is it?

    Your entire basis of calling the Army douchebags is based on some hearsay from an ROTC friend, which I find comical considering most ROTC officers are considered a joke until they prove themselves otherwise.

    The entire premise of your OP was offensive to a vast segment of people who have fought and died in far more brutal wars than we. In an effort to backpedal and not be so offensive, you manage to change direction and offend a whole new lot of people, this time your fellow citizens . Wash, rinse, repeat.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Let me tell you guys about why all of your military's suck.

    Now let me tell you why my military sucks.

    Now let me tell you why my military sucks less than your military.

    Why are you guys all offended? How about you read my posts guys.

    EDIT: Also New York is full of wimps which is why 9/11 happened there and not the strong heart of America, AKA the Dakotas.

    Seriously guys! Stop attacking me and respond to my actual arguments, geeze!
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 02-02-2011 at 07:04.


  8. #8
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Let me tell you guys about why all of your military's suck.

    Now let me tell you why my military sucks.

    Now let me tell you why my military sucks less than your military.

    Why are you guys all offended? How about you read my posts guys.
    Brilliant.
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  9. #9
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump View Post
    No, the problem is that I do read your posts, and your arguments change every third or fourth post.

    Virtually no one on these boards agrees with your presumptious post, yet you accuse everyone of "not reading your posts" when in fact that is what is confusing everyone to begin with. And yes, you did back pedal and say that Germany and Spain had the potential to be good militaries (despite them being European along with England and Ireland), and yes, paraprhased or not, you said that New York makes crap soldiers. And through all of this, you even mention that the soldiers of South American countries are somehow superior to European forces again without a shred of practical evidence and then accuse someone who makes a siesta joke of using sterotypes. LOL. If you want to play semantics with us, little boy, you may consider choosing your initial words a little more carefully.

    Your idea that people from the South makes better troops cannot be backed up with a shred of evidence other than the fact that they are the majority of enlisted soldiers, which means virtually squat if you consider that every branch of the military has its badasses, mouth breathers and grifters. In fact, considering there are more soldiers from the south in the military one might reasonably assume that the majority of crapbags are also from the south, due primarily to reasonable statistical chance, right? Not very good science, is it?

    Your entire basis of calling the Army douchebags is based on some hearsay from an ROTC friend, which I find comical considering most ROTC officers are considered a joke until they prove themselves otherwise.

    The entire premise of your OP was offensive to a vast segment of people who have fought and died in far more brutal wars than we. In an effort to backpedal and not be so offensive, you manage to change direction and offend a whole new lot of people, this time your fellow citizens . Wash, rinse, repeat.
    I said that Spain had the potential to have good citizens, but it was wasted by political instability, and that Germany had more potential than the other major European powers, but that it still was sub-par at best. That does not at all contradict my original argument or any made thereafter.
    Also, I never said that South American troops were better than European troops. I said that South American citizens had better potential than European citizens, but that it could not be realized because of the poverty and political instability of South America. Again, that does not contradict my opening remarks at all. If you will remember, I said that two main things were needed for a good military, and that South America had better potential for one than Europe, but that Europe had the advantage in the other.
    You either just skim my posts, do not know how to read, or look at other people's posts and infer from that what my post must be. Either way, it demonstrates a decided lack of basic language and comprehension skills...esp concerning sensitive issues.
    Also, about the Army, I never said that they were not an effective military force because of the hearsay of a friend. I used that as an example. I never told you what I based it on, and nor did you inquire. I based my opinion on the Army on countless reports, articles, accounts, etc that I have read, as well as on my own personal experience with Army personnel.
    Case in point, I know several guys from the Army who attend Uni with me. With one exception, they are generally not very fit, and know nothing at all about hand-to-hand combat. Not only that, but they are more uneasy with the sissified TKD sparring we do that some of their smaller civvy counterparts! They don't know how to take a hit, or give a hit, and don't want to find out. The only thing they were taught is bullcrap things for getting out of this grip, or this lock, etc, etc. Some military experts hold that the intimacy with danger acquired through hand-to-hand combat training is the best way to prepare someone for real combat, but whether you hold with that or not, you can at least agree that Soldiers should know how to shoot, right?
    When my Pastor was a mechanic in the Army, he said that they did not even teach him how to shoot!! I don't know...I think that is kind of important when you are in a combat zone. (Every Marine a Rifleman)
    You have no objectivity (as you were in the military), and have proven incapable of even reading and comprehending a three paragraph post! Quit while you are ahead...kind of...
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

  10. #10
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Did you not say the US Army regulars are sub-par? Did you not say you have no faith in the US Army? You even tried to back this up by pointing out the removeal of bayonet training from basic, as if the physical condition initial recruits has anything to do with the overall, trained fighting force!

    Here's some info your "friends" in the military didn't give you:
    Bayonet training was removed because
    A) NO ONE FIGHTS WITH BAYONETS AND THOSE 3 DAYS ARE BETTER SPENT LEARNING OTHER THINGS
    B) The pugil stick training used to simulate bayonets not only gets recruits hurt, but also tends to get Drill Sergeants in trouble

    Your pastor used to be in the army and did not know how to shoot? How is that even relevant?

    As far as soldiers not learning "hand-to-hand," the gay fake karate they trained us on until the late 1990s was ineffective and obsolete and was eventually replaced with Jujitsu-based combatives. Everyone at BCT and AIT and OCS gets basic, watered-down courses on those. Anything past that is completely voluntary because to be level 1 certified and higher you must complete a course during which you stand to suffer permanant, serious injuries. People have died. Making every single soldier down to support personnel attend these classes is a really good way to thin your ranks. The idea of US ARMY modern combatives is not to be a one-man unarmed killing machine, it is to be able to survive long enough for your friends to come help you.

    I also find it comical that you use your "friends" at the university as an example of how the military is not physically fit. Maybe that is because they are at the university, and not at a military school or on a deployment. Soldiers gain weight, eat, drink and screw in between assignments. And please do not ever, ever, ever use ROTC cadets as an example of any military institution because they are not soldiers yet and many of them never will be.

    I am really sorry that we, as a fighting force, cannot live up to your high expectations. If the military was full of Vuks, I'm sure Iraq and Afghanistan would have been won years ago
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Biggest issue with American troops is how they are really "gunho" and keep firing at their allies instead of the enemies.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    It's really not worth th e warning points, man. Nobody is taking him seriously.

  13. #13
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    hey...
    So you have to be part of something to talk about it? Do you have to be a Nazi to discuss Nazism? And if I was in the military, I would be accussed by you of being biased. I guess you just cannot win.
    Oh well, my part in this discussion is over then I guess.
    Last edited by Vuk; 02-01-2011 at 23:31.
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Let's put it like this, if you had to recruit people for your military, would you rather be recruiting Americans or Euros? If you had to have an identical number of either Euro or American military personnel guarding you with the same equipment, who would you choose? I think that I know the answer, and THAT is my point.”
    I take the Euros of course.

    Answer “a la Vuk”.
    The US army was obliged to change the enlistment criteria (weight) in order to able to have enough recruits. They were obliged to give University grant as a reward in order to get individual able to think as apparently patriotism was not enough for young Americans.
    In term of combat, I grant you that against an obsolete and demoralized enemy army (Irak), the US are great. Of course when it was question to attack the vastly superior Serbian Army (Serbia: around 8,000,000 inhabitants) on the ground… well, that was an other affair, the US having lost 2 Apache even without any fight. I pass on the 5 Serbian tanks destroyed by 2 months of intensive aerial bombardment and cruise missiles launched from far, the US Army succeeded in having 2 members captured. The US Government had to sent the Pastor Jessy Jackson to bring the kids back. Of course the US whined that it was unfair as the soldiers were captured near or perhaps in Macedonia, so it was off-limit.
    Few F-16 down and one “invisible” bomber, thanks to the Russian Mediation and lies (e.g. integrity of the Serbian Territory was guaranty in the size-fire agreement) they didn’t have to fight on the ground against armed and determined enemies…
    About the training, just for you to know, our training Centres are too hard for you poor cocooned soldiers. The poor guys had to WALK… A Platoon of US soldiers couldn’t finish a simple obstacle run on a maximum time allowed to a French or German Soldier in Treve (ok, they were MP, but).
    Oh, yeah, your elite troops… Marines and Seals are ok, average, I met some, and they become friends so I can’t say bad things, but honestly, the average level of the US soldiers is poor. Negligent with their material, insubordinate, and not willing to take too much risks…

    (Apologies to my US comrades in Arms, past and actual, but this guy goes on my nerves…)
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus
    Apologies to my US comrades in Arms, past and actual, but this guy goes on my nerves…)
    The answer is not to attack the US military.

    Can you back up this statement any more than Vuk can back up his?

    the average level of the US soldiers is poor. Negligent with their material, insubordinate, and not willing to take too much risks…

  16. #16
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    (Apologies to my US comrades in Arms, past and actual, but this guy goes on my nerves…)
    Apology hardly accepted. I don't understand the aim of this post. Is it a failed tongue-in-cheek impersonation of Vuk or just Brenus using the absurdity of this thread as a nice place to vent some harbored feelings?



    Edit: I won't quote it in order to spare the mods the trouble of editing my post as well, but Centurion basically summed up my feelings towards the other thread's OP except he was a little less profane than what I had in mind.
    Last edited by Proletariat; 02-02-2011 at 00:41.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    This is the most constructive conversation I have ever read on the backroom. It was so good, that it made a baby thread from its locked mother.


  18. #18
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat View Post
    Apology hardly accepted. I don't understand the aim of this post. Is it a failed tongue-in-cheek impersonation of Vuk or just Brenus using the absurdity of this thread as a nice place to vent some harbored feelings?



    Edit: I won't quote it in order to spare the mods the trouble of editing my post as well, but Centurion basically summed up my feelings towards the other thread's OP except he was a little less profane than what I had in mind.
    I'm afraid that the NATO experience of working with the Americans is profoundly negative, generally they are seen as undiciplined and ill trained. That may not be true, but every soldier I have ever known basically said the same as Benus. I heard a lovely story about a US liggh infantry battallion being unable to keep up with a British mechanised one despite carrying 7lb less gear and a lighter rifle.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  19. #19

    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    I heard a lovely story about a US liggh infantry battallion being unable to keep up with a British mechanised one despite carrying 7lb less gear and a lighter rifle.

    Such talk has been characteristic of Anglo-American joint operations since World War 2. For example, I can link to dozens of highly detailed American criticisms of the British performance in Iraq that amount to quite a bit more than 'they can't carry as much as we can'. As there is natural competition between the two militaries, such anecdotes should be taken with more than a grain of salt.


    Two speakers — Marston and David Kilcullen, who moderated the panel and is Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice’s special adviser for counterinsurgency — were sharply critical of the British military’s performance in Iraq and Afghanistan, saying that the British had failed to back up their boasts of superiority in counterinsurgency and in fact had fallen behind the U.S. military.


    “The British Army has the reputation of being good at counterinsurgency, and in 2003 and 2004 there was lots of fairly snide criticism of the United States by British commanders saying that Americans didn’t understand counterinsurgency [and] were taking too kinetic an approach,” said Kilcullen, who described the British attitude as, “‘Look at us, we’re on the street in our soft caps and everyone loves us.’”


    Marston, who was until recently a senior lecturer at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst — the British Army’s rough equivalent of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y. — said that “as an American working in the British system for the last five years” in 2003, he watched the British “act as if they were the best in [counterinsurgency] in the world.”


    But the British performance on Iraqi and Afghan battlefields since then has not backed up such strident talk, according to Kilcullen and Marston.


    “It would be fair to say that in 2006 the British Army was defeated in the field in southern Iraq,” Kilcullen said, adding that there were numerous “incidents” in Afghanistan that further undercut the British claims of superiority in counterinsurgency.


    “They’ve been embarrassed by their performance in southern Iraq,” Marston said. Meanwhile, the Taliban “almost destroyed” the British Army’s 16th Air Assault Brigade in Afghanistan. In some places, he said, “they just held on.”


    The British military was simply unprepared for the challenges it faced in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to Marston, who stressed he was not speaking in his official capacity as an employee of the British Ministry of Defence.


    “There have been major problems with their pre-deployment training,” he said. “There were a lot of problems with their education. … The staff college had one day for counterinsurgency for majors. The RMA Sandhurst lieutenants course was a bit of a joke, bit of a video here and there.”

  20. #20
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    this guy goes on my nerves…
    Relax. The internets are full of E tough people. Life's too short to let every E bicile get under you skin.


    Besides, I am sure you yourself made a great soldier. So tough, in fact, that I bet it would have taken me at least twenty minutes of hard work to get you and the other girls of your régiment to polish my boots for me.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
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  21. #21
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Teh European armies are invincible !!







    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Come back to talk to us when you can field this sort of Weapons of Mass Distraction!

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    ...or when you can parade 2.5 kilometers on stiletto heels and a tight skirt....

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    ...which of course is not a problem for me. That's pretty much my average Saturday Night...
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 02-02-2011 at 03:21.
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