Finally - PM states multiculturalism has failed

[Beskar]

Oh really, what's the change of heart. It kinda annoys me, for years the dangers of multiculteralism have been pretty obvious. And now you always thought it was a bad idea? At least admit it when you have been wrong.

Erm... where have I said I been pro-multiculturalism?

I have always argued for an Open Society in every thread similar to this vein.

However, I have never argued for 'indiscriminate hating' of Muslims. Those who oppose that are not Multiculturists.

[Greyblades]

Interesting, you people say america is the only place where multiculturalism works yet to become a citizen you have to speak english and have a understanding -if brief- of american history. Kinda funny that the worlds melting pot, who should be more accepting of other culures in theory, has a "you are an american first an englishman/frenchman/whatever second policy" and we dont.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Kinda funny that the worlds melting pot, who should be more accepting of other culures in theory, has a "you are an american first an englishman/frenchman/whatever second policy" and we dont.

It's because being British/French/German etc is about blood. They're ethnic identities. Some people might contest that but that's how they've been seen for the most part historically.

There's no such ethnicity as American, its an identity based on beliefs/values.

[Furunculus]

It's because being British/French/German etc is about blood. They're ethnic identities. Some people might contest that but that's how they've been seen for the most part historically.

There's no such ethnicity as American, its an identity based on beliefs/values.

i would violently disagree with you there.

British Nationalism is pretty much the definition of Civic Nationalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
Please don't make the mistake of assuming that the BNP defines British Nationalism.

[rory_20_uk]

i would violently disagree with you there.

British Nationalism is pretty much the definition of Civic Nationalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
Please don't make the mistake of assuming that the BNP defines British Nationalism.

I heartily agree. One is British if one thinks of oneself as British. My colleague at work might have ancestry in Shri-Lanka, but she was born in Britain, she speaks English - she is British as she thinks she is British.

[Furunculus]

My colleague at work might have ancestry in Shri-Lanka, but she was born in Britain, she speaks English - she is British as she thinks she is British.

absolutely correct.

[Rhyfelwyr]

i would violently disagree with you there.

British Nationalism is pretty much the definition of Civic Nationalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
Please don't make the mistake of assuming that the BNP defines British Nationalism.

Civic nationalism is a pretty modern phenomenon, I did say "historically". To say nationalism is about civic rather than ethnic identity seems like backtracking to me, a bit like a poster in a recent thread that muddied racist comments by talking about culture.

The rightists realise that the public will no longer tolerate openly racist nationalistic sentiments, so nowadays rather than talking about the British race they'll talk about British values or such.

It's the first step in them admitting that they are losing ground, and that the path to national borders and nationalism in general becoming obsolete is pretty much inevitable.

[rory_20_uk]

Since before the Romans there has been influxes of people to the UK. Bar the mentally challenged, everyone knows that there is no "race" in the UK, it is a mix of many.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Since before the Romans there has been influxes of people to the UK. Bar the mentally challenged, everyone knows that there is no "race" in the UK, it is a mix of many.

Which doesn't change the fact that for centuries nationalism was based on an the idea that there was a British/English/Irish/Scottish etc race.

And it doesn't lend any support to civic nationalism either. What is an actual 'British' value? Usually people say things like democracy, or tolerance. Hardly anything that sets apart the British nation from any other western liberal democracy.

Civic nationalism is no more real than ethnic nationalism. Heck, its really just an attempt to mask the prejudices of the old ethnic nationalism, but ends up failing in its purpose anyway, because it is as I said meaningless.

It might provide nice propaganda to tell immigrants they are 'British' so they feel like they're part of the group identity and don't look to their roots instead and end up blowing themselves up, but its just rhetoric.

[Furunculus]

Civic nationalism is a pretty modern phenomenon, I did say "historically". To say nationalism is about civic rather than ethnic identity seems like backtracking to me, a bit like a poster in a recent thread that muddied racist comments by talking about culture.

The rightists realise that the public will no longer tolerate openly racist nationalistic sentiments, so nowadays rather than talking about the British race they'll talk about British values or such.

It's the first step in them admitting that they are losing ground, and that the path to national borders and nationalism in general becoming obsolete is pretty much inevitable.

disagreed.

there are always head-banging elements, but the concept of civic nationalism has been around just as long in the context of britain, sounds like you are trying to justify why you don't like something.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Both France and the UK have a strong component of “well it doesn't matter what dump you come from, you're still one for the Empire/Republic” to their nationalism. Germany is simply content to beat the others at just about all other pursuits, that's their source of pride.

[The Stranger]

Interesting, you people say america is the only place where multiculturalism works yet to become a citizen you have to speak english and have a understanding -if brief- of american history. Kinda funny that the worlds melting pot, who should be more accepting of other culures in theory, has a "you are an american first an englishman/frenchman/whatever second policy" and we dont.

which is not weird. multiculturalism does also include the american culture which again includes american language and history. thus it is reasonable that the immigrant should speak the language and have atleast decent knowledge of customs and history. this should however not mean that he has to forsake his own roots.

and you should be an american first and whatever it was that u were before u came to that country second, because now you are a citizen of that state and loyal to that state as long as that state provides for you as a citizen equal among all other citizens.

personally i prefer a different system but since at least now what i prefer isnt yet possible i think the philosophy of america is a good one, though the practical implementation often fails. but hey, communism is a good idea on paper :P

[a completely inoffensive name]

Interesting, you people say america is the only place where multiculturalism works yet to become a citizen you have to speak english and have a understanding -if brief- of american history. Kinda funny that the worlds melting pot, who should be more accepting of other culures in theory, has a "you are an american first an englishman/frenchman/whatever second policy" and we dont.

I never said that America is the only place multiculturalism works. I said that America is the only place multiculturalism should be practiced.

Also, even though you need to speak english to become a formal citizen, in practice it is much different. Head to the south west and marvel at how much is translated into Spanish for immigrant's convenience. Hell, even the ballots are translated into spanish when you vote.

1. The concept of the melting pot is somewhat obsolete. A melting pot has all the ingredients become homogenized. I have heard from people that a more accurate term is a stir fry. In all major cities you have blocks of ethnic areas (china town, little italy etc..).

2. The point of being an American first is to have a common unifying identity that takes precedent over your background. It is not supposed to be one at the others expense as you are describing it. You are an Italian-American, Chinese-American etc.. You are an American first who is proud of his/her background contributing your uniqueness to the higher goal/ideal of "America".

3. The fact that America has been the most hypocritical when it comes to living up to these ideals compared to European nations doesn't really negate the fact that we really should be the only ones who should follow the goal of multiculturalism.

[Fragony]

Excuse me, out of all countries America did best, in 50 years from a ms Rose to a President Obama.

[HoreTore]

Excuse me, out of all countries America did best, in 50 years from a ms Rose to a President Obama.

Yes indeedy, the US did do best during the years they started embracing multiculturalism. And they are still number one because they still embrace multiculturalism.

[Fragony]

Yes indeedy, the US did do best during the years they started embracing multiculturalism. And they are still number one because they still embrace multiculturalism.

I disagree, they never embraced multiculturalism, it's just not that much of an issue where you are from. I wish Euro lefties would start collecting Pokemon to keep them busy instead enforcing quota because everything should reflect society, must have taken a walk in NY and never really left. Can't engineer society. Multiculteralism is engineering society

[a completely inoffensive name]

Can't engineer society.

Civil Rights Act.

[Fragony]

Erm... where have I said I been pro-multiculturalism?

I have always argued for an Open Society in every thread similar to this vein.

However, I have never argued for 'indiscriminate hating' of Muslims. Those who oppose that are not Multiculturists.

Those who somehow instinctively read that absolutely are. Glad it's becomming a derogatory term though, the arrogant old left, or the leftist church have lost the high-ground. I'm a happy man, that's all I ever really wanted as a moderation-extremist