Finally - PM states multiculturalism has failed

[Furunculus]

It's because being British/French/German etc is about blood. They're ethnic identities. Some people might contest that but that's how they've been seen for the most part historically.

There's no such ethnicity as American, its an identity based on beliefs/values.

i would violently disagree with you there.

British Nationalism is pretty much the definition of Civic Nationalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
Please don't make the mistake of assuming that the BNP defines British Nationalism.

[rory_20_uk]

i would violently disagree with you there.

British Nationalism is pretty much the definition of Civic Nationalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
Please don't make the mistake of assuming that the BNP defines British Nationalism.

I heartily agree. One is British if one thinks of oneself as British. My colleague at work might have ancestry in Shri-Lanka, but she was born in Britain, she speaks English - she is British as she thinks she is British.

[Furunculus]

My colleague at work might have ancestry in Shri-Lanka, but she was born in Britain, she speaks English - she is British as she thinks she is British.

absolutely correct.

[Rhyfelwyr]

i would violently disagree with you there.

British Nationalism is pretty much the definition of Civic Nationalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
Please don't make the mistake of assuming that the BNP defines British Nationalism.

Civic nationalism is a pretty modern phenomenon, I did say "historically". To say nationalism is about civic rather than ethnic identity seems like backtracking to me, a bit like a poster in a recent thread that muddied racist comments by talking about culture.

The rightists realise that the public will no longer tolerate openly racist nationalistic sentiments, so nowadays rather than talking about the British race they'll talk about British values or such.

It's the first step in them admitting that they are losing ground, and that the path to national borders and nationalism in general becoming obsolete is pretty much inevitable.

[rory_20_uk]

Since before the Romans there has been influxes of people to the UK. Bar the mentally challenged, everyone knows that there is no "race" in the UK, it is a mix of many.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Since before the Romans there has been influxes of people to the UK. Bar the mentally challenged, everyone knows that there is no "race" in the UK, it is a mix of many.

Which doesn't change the fact that for centuries nationalism was based on an the idea that there was a British/English/Irish/Scottish etc race.

And it doesn't lend any support to civic nationalism either. What is an actual 'British' value? Usually people say things like democracy, or tolerance. Hardly anything that sets apart the British nation from any other western liberal democracy.

Civic nationalism is no more real than ethnic nationalism. Heck, its really just an attempt to mask the prejudices of the old ethnic nationalism, but ends up failing in its purpose anyway, because it is as I said meaningless.

It might provide nice propaganda to tell immigrants they are 'British' so they feel like they're part of the group identity and don't look to their roots instead and end up blowing themselves up, but its just rhetoric.

[Fragony]

Nationalism is kinda 19th century, if you say centuries there are too many of them.

[The Stranger]

dont forget 20th century. different kind of nationalism or patriotism exist tho. the french revolution gave rise to the modern form, though the american revolution may have proceeded it, both root in the same philosophy. nationalism isnt much different from religious fanatism and one could argue that the crusades, however only maybe for a limited group of nobles, was also patriotic, though more to the kingdom of god than to any earthly domain.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Nationalism is kinda 19th century, if you say centuries there are too many of them.

Fascism has it roots in the 19th century, it was basically a nationalist reaction to class struggle. Nationalism more generally has been around since the medieval kingdoms started to centralise, hardly surprising that the top two at the head of the game in that respect (England and Frenchland) should also have been the first to have strong national identities.

Look at 17th century rhetoric in England... it's all about birthrights, the rights of their ancestors etc. Do you really think they would ever accept a Sri Lankan as an Englishman/woman?

Most of the political theorists these days will say that civic nationalism is a result of an identity through shared institutions eg the welfare state, and since these have only been around since after WWII, civic nationalism couldn't have existed before then. You can't read it back into history.

[Fragony]

No idea what they are talking about then. Nationalism came from liberalism not the other way around, it's also admitting other people right to have a place of their own. They are welcome, but there are boundaries. The multicultists wanted to destroy them. For what, I don't get them

[Furunculus]

Civic nationalism is a pretty modern phenomenon, I did say "historically". To say nationalism is about civic rather than ethnic identity seems like backtracking to me, a bit like a poster in a recent thread that muddied racist comments by talking about culture.

The rightists realise that the public will no longer tolerate openly racist nationalistic sentiments, so nowadays rather than talking about the British race they'll talk about British values or such.

It's the first step in them admitting that they are losing ground, and that the path to national borders and nationalism in general becoming obsolete is pretty much inevitable.

disagreed.

there are always head-banging elements, but the concept of civic nationalism has been around just as long in the context of britain, sounds like you are trying to justify why you don't like something.