Gay Parenting

[Beirut]

YES! Bring your sources and I'll bring mine and we'll see which have more credibility.

So the issue of parenting should be brought to the level of who finds what on the Internet?

God save our children.

It would at least be something, anything, other than your expert Flat Earth Society endorsed opinion.

If you are implying that thinking a mother and father is best for a child is akin to saying the Earth is flat, den da world she be in ruff shape.

I understand now. It was so vague and unsupported, I just assumed it was more backwoods, lumberjack common sense and not an actual argument.

Backwoods lumberjack common sense is a great argument.

"...add two parts chain oil to three parts eye of newt and blend for... "

Gender roles. Ok. Let's establish some parameters before we go any further. Can you specify which roles the female plays in the family and which roles the male plays?

Certainly.

The female plays the role of mother and the male plays the role of father.

It is indeed important for a child to observe the interworkings of a healthy relationship. What is different about the way gay couples express affection, cooperate, reason, and resolve conflicts between each other than straight couples? What specifically makes straight relationships more valuable to children's development than gay ones?

Answered (to your satisfaction or not) below.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying that either children raised by gay couples are not as prepared for real life as those raised by straight couples and/or children raised by gay couples are less prepared to deal with the opposite sex of their parents.

I'm saying that there are advantages for a child to be raised by a mother and a father as the child experiences input from both sexes while growing up as well as being able to observe the relationship between the mother and father.

Obviously both notions have been completely discredited by scientific studies, but since you don't believe in science I suppose we'll have to approach this from a different direction.

I am a great fan of science. But this "dad & dad is as good as mom & dad" stuff is psychological alchemy.

What specific elements of 'real life' are children of gay couples not prepared for? Can you give an example of an area of life where a child raised by a gay couple would not be able to function properly?

Life.

Whether the kid is a girl or a boy that kid will have a chance to observe and learn from someone of its own sex and how that person deals wth the opposite sex, and how all of that fits in with life in general. it's important how the kid learns about him/herself and the dynamics of interpersonal relationships, mother to father to son to sister, etc. It's not a question of one or two issues, it's the whole enchilada. It's... life.

[Fragony]

'Psychological alchemy', I like. Trying to turn everything into gold, can't do that. I wonder how many of the howlers wouldn't make the exact same decision I would absolutely make.

[Beirut]

'Psychological alchemy', I like.

Glad you liked it. You had a gem of a phrase a few posts back and I thought I would return the favour.

[Andres]

Whether the kid is a girl or a boy that kid will have a chance to observe and learn from someone of its own sex and how that person deals wth the opposite sex, and how all of that fits in with life in general. it's important how the kid learns about him/herself and the dynamics of interpersonal relationships, mother to father to son to sister, etc. It's not a question of one or two issues, it's the whole enchilada. It's... life.

In all honesty, I didn't learn how to interact with the opposite sex from watching my parents.

I just, well, interacted with girls as I grew up. Like everyone else, I played with girls as a child and consdered them, well, girlish (they played with dolls instead of playing soccer or playing with miniature cars or lego ???).

Then I became a teenager and my heart got broken a few times and I probably broke some hearts as well. My parents have always been there to support me and there was always a shoulder to cry on or somebody to kick me in the butt (ha, usually, my mum was the one kicking me in the butt and telling me to man up and my dad was the more sensitive one; so there goes the stereotype btw), but the interaction with the opposite sex in itself, I learned through experience with... the opposite sex, not from sitting in a chair and watching mum and dad.

[Beirut]

In all honesty, I didn't learn how to interact with the opposite sex from watching my parents.

We learn far more than we realize just being with them, listening to them, seeing them act and interact. It's not a single issue or a simple thing at all. It's a very big complicated deal. A kid spends critical years picking up on the world and it's workings from his parents, and as the world is a male and female world, involving all kinds of different levels of male female interactions, a kid having a mother and father is best.

This not to say gay couples cannot be good parents, I'm sure they can be. But mom and dad is better for a kid than dad and dad.

[PanzerJaeger]

So the issue of parenting should be brought to the level of who finds what on the Internet?

God save our children.

You seem to be confused by the internet. It is simply a conduit to share information. The studies themselves were conducted by psychiatrists and children's health experts following standard scientific procedures. If you have any issues with the methodology or processes of any of the studies that I have linked to please share them.

If you are implying that thinking a mother and father is best for a child is akin to saying the Earth is flat, den da world she be in ruff shape.

I am implying that dismissing overwhelming scientific consensus that same sex couples can be just as effective as straight ones because it doesn't jive with your version of common sense is akin to saying the Earth is flat.

Certainly.

The female plays the role of mother and the male plays the role of father.

Can you please specify what you believe the role of the father and the role of the mother to be in the modern family?

I'm saying that there are advantages for a child to be raised by a mother and a father as the child experiences input from both sexes while growing up as well as being able to observe the relationship between the mother and father.

Can you specify what inputs are unique to males and which are unique to females?

I am a great fan of science. But this "dad & dad is as good as mom & dad" stuff is psychological alchemy.

Do you have any evidence to base that on?

Life.

"Life" is not a specific example.

Again, what specific elements of 'real life' are children of gay couples not prepared for? Can you give an example of an area of life where a child raised by a gay couple would not be able to function properly?

Whether the kid is a girl or a boy that kid will have a chance to observe and learn from someone of its own sex and how that person deals wth the opposite sex, and how all of that fits in with life in general. it's important how the kid learns about him/herself and the dynamics of interpersonal relationships, mother to father to son to sister, etc. It's not a question of one or two issues, it's the whole enchilada. It's... life.

If that is the case, then it shouldn't be difficult to name some specific situations where a child raised by gay parents is at a disadvantage in dealing with the opposite sex compared to children raised by straight parents. Further, it shouldn't be difficult to name some specific male and female roles or interpersonal traits that are unique only to them. Please do so.

[Beirut]

You seem to be confused by the internet. It is simply a conduit to share information. The studies themselves were conducted by psychiatrists and children's health experts following standard scientific procedures. If you have any issues with the methodology or processes of any of the studies that I have linked to please share them.

The issue I have is that if they say dad and dad is just as good for a kid as mom and dad, then they are wrong. That's a good place to start.

I am implying that dismissing overwhelming scientific consensus that same sex couples can be just as effective as straight ones because it doesn't jive with your version of common sense is akin to saying the Earth is flat.

I'm well aware that the Earth is round. And just as aware that kids are better off with a mom and dad than with a dad and dad.

Can you please specify what you believe the role of the father and the role of the mother to be in the modern family?

The role of the mother is to be the female parental unit the child relates to and the role of the father is to be the male parental unit the child relates to. As a child is best off with a mother and father, both sexes are required and these are the roles they fill.

Can you specify what inputs are unique to males and which are unique to females?

You just answered you own question. That they are male and female is the whole point.

Do you have any evidence to base that on?

Yeah, real life and common sense. Now I understand that real life and common sense pale in relation to new age feel-good psycho-babble, but real life and common sense are tools I prefer to work with.

"Life" is not a specific example.

Life is all we've got and all there is.

Again, what specific elements of 'real life' are children of gay couples not prepared for? Can you give an example of an area of life where a child raised by a gay couple would not be able to function properly?

They have lacked the crucial input of being raised and taught by both of the sexes. Humans have only two types; male and female. It's not like it difficult to see the situation clearly. It isn't Baskin-Robbins and 31 flavours, half of which nobody likes , it's just two; man and woman. And we need both. And for a human child to have the best upbringing to function in that world of male and female, the child should be raised by a male and female.

If that is the case, then it shouldn't be difficult to name some specific situations where a child raised by gay parents is at a disadvantage in dealing with the opposite sex compared to children raised by straight parents.

See above.

Further, it shouldn't be difficult to name some specific male and female roles or interpersonal traits that are unique only to them. Please do so.

Seriously, fella, if you don't know the differences between men and women - lose the keyboard, make the scene, and grab yourself a honey. You have much to learn.

Textbook psychology and Internet studies are well and fine; getting laid, living with a woman, and raising kids is better.

Like I said - Real life.

[Askthepizzaguy]

In conclusion, what some people consider common sense, that others disagree with, trumps all data indicating otherwise, based entirely on the premise that you "know" you're right? Anything which disagrees with you is simply "new age" mumbo-jumbo, not worth looking at, because you said you were right, and that settles it?

That might be fine for you, but it's hardly debate-worthy, and entirely unconvincing to people who don't already agree with you.

[PanzerJaeger]

That was, quite possibly, the longest non-answer I've ever read here on the .org. Usually people with no real position pick out one or two statements they believe they have a decent counter to and ignore the rest, hoping the points will be dropped. You, in contrast, addressed each one of my statements without ever really saying anything at all. Quite impressive.

Seriously, fella, if you don't know the differences between men and women - lose the keyboard, make the scene, and grab yourself a honey. You have much to learn.

Textbook psychology and Internet studies are well and fine; getting laid, living with a woman, and raising kids is better.

Like I said - Real life.

This is the crux of the matter. You are apparently an expert on the differences between men and women, but you seem either unwilling or unable to name specific roles, attributes, or differences that are wholly unique to either of the sexes in relation to raising children.

Apart from genitalia, what specific roles, attributes, or differences can only be replicated by females? Which can only be replicated by males?

If you're going to put certain families at the end of the line in adoption proceedings, you'll have to base it on something more substantial than some vague and wholly unsupported theory about 'life' and tired and bigoted platitudes ripped straight off of Focus on the Family's website about mom and dad being better than dad and dad.


(And again with the 'internet studies' tripe? These are not 'internet studies', they are peer-reviewed research findings published in major, mainstream psychological and medical journals that have also been posted on the internet. I think you know that.)

[Samurai Waki]

I have to say Beirut, you really seem out of character on this one. Usually your posts are very considerate, and well thought out; and this just seems messy for you. Like playing Devil's Advocate. Maybe I'm wrong here, but usually your "common sense ain't that common" approach seems to be biting back at you pretty hard. Just my thoughts.

[Beirut]

I have to say Beirut, you really seem out of character on this one. Usually your posts are very considerate, and well thought out; and this just seems messy for you. Like playing Devil's Advocate. Maybe I'm wrong here, but usually your "common sense ain't that common" approach seems to be biting back at you pretty hard. Just my thoughts.

Thank you for the civilized note.

I admit to being really stunned by people's reaction to all this. It's not just that a lot of people disagree that a kid is better off with a mother and father, but are really quite angry that someone would be such a blatant ******* as to actually say in public that a kid is better off with a mother and father. It's truly odd.

It's so basic, so fundamental, so normal, so clear, and yes, so full of good old fashioned common sense, that I cannot for the life of me understand what these people are thinking and why they are so hostile. I never said that same sex couples could not be good parents, I said only that a child is better served by having a mother and a father. From the reaction it's like I hauled Rosa Parks out of her seat, beat the crap out of her, and threw her off the bus.

That hyper-reaction is one of the reasons I smell the stink of an agenda far more than the scent of true caring for the children. It really looks like people are pushing a gay rights agenda by using babies as tools. You have a baby born to a mother and father, but none of that matters because Joe Enlightenend is standing in front of those parents, waiving this week's feel-good science study, saying that one of the two people required to make the baby simply isn't relevant anymore. It's absolute bovine scatology and defies the most basic tenets of real life.

[ajaxfetish]

I admit to being really stunned by people's reaction to all this. It's not just that a lot of people disagree that a kid is better off with a mother and father, but are really quite angry that someone would be such a blatant ******* as to actually say in public that a kid is better off with a mother and father. It's truly odd.

For my part at least, I think it's quite understandable that you feel a mother and father is better, and I'm perfectly willing to accept that as a legitimate opinion, even if it's not one I find convincing. The thing that bothers me is that you seem unwilling to extend the same courtesy to those of us who disagree with you. You have expressed shock and disbelief that anyone could have a reasonable opinion other than your own, and questioned the rationality, motives, and life experiences of those of us who do. It's disrespectful, and not something I'd have expected from you. I'm also concerned that you're willing to blatantly disregard the scientific method and community in its entirety, treating something that has made such huge contributions to our modern standard of living as so much 'pixie dust.' You're not the only person in this world, Beirut.

Ajax

[Beirut]

That was, quite possibly, the longest non-answer I've ever read here on the .org. Usually people with no real position pick out one or two statements they believe they have a decent counter to and ignore the rest, hoping the points will be dropped. You, in contrast, addressed each one of my statements without ever really saying anything at all. Quite impressive.

Thank you.

This is the crux of the matter. You are apparently an expert on the differences between men and women, but you seem either unwilling or unable to name specific roles, attributes, or differences that are wholly unique to either of the sexes in relation to raising children.

Apart from genitalia, what specific roles, attributes, or differences can only be replicated by females? Which can only be replicated by males?

I am of the opnion that you have a lot to learn about real life.

If you're going to put certain families at the end of the line in adoption proceedings, you'll have to base it on something more substantial than some vague and wholly unsupported theory about 'life' and tired and bigoted platitudes ripped straight off of Focus on the Family's website about mom and dad being better than dad and dad.

"Mom and dad" is a bigoted platitude?

Seriously - get off the computer, get a woman, and live a little. I wasn't kidding when I said you have a lot to learn about real life.

(And again with the 'internet studies' tripe? These are not 'internet studies', they are peer-reviewed research findings published in major, mainstream psychological and medical journals that have also been posted on the internet. I think you know that.)

I know what you say they are. And I know that you like to haul them out and wave them from the grandstands yelling "Proof! Proof!". But I wonder if you have actually read what you wave around, and if you really understand it, and if you have the life experience to correlate that data with the real world.

I think you are ignoring the real world in favour of what someone with a title told you to think.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Beirut, your difficulty here is that you keep desperately repeating yourself without defense of your belief.

Here I'll debate pj in your place:

Academic and policy effects of eight early dissertations on gay and lesbian parenting are discussed with a focus on their having been cited at least 234 times in over 50 literature reviews, beginning with Gottman in 1989 and 1990. Most literature reviews, referencing these eight early dissertations and agreeing with Gottman's early conclusions, have reiterated the theme that parenting by gay men or lesbians has outcomes no different than parenting by heterosexual parents. Here it is proposed that certain potential adverse findings may have been obscured by suppressor effects which could have been evaluated had multivariate analyses been implemented. Further, several adverse findings were detected by reanalyzing data where sufficient information was yet available. Some of the dissertations' results (absent controls for social desirability and other differences between homosexual and heterosexual parents) supported the 2001 "no differences" hypothesis discussed by Stacey and Biblarz. Yet, differences were also observed, including some evidence in more recent dissertations, suggesting that parental sexual orientation might be associated with children's later sexual orientation and adult attachment style, among other outcomes. Odds ratios associated with some of the apparent effects were substantial in magnitude as well as statistically significant. Also, more recent research on gay and lesbian parenting continues to be flawed by many of the same limitations as previous research in this area of study, including overlooked suppressor effects. (PsycINFO Database Record © 2009 APA, all rights reserved)

[Beirut]

Beirut, your difficulty here is that you keep desperately repeating yourself without defense of your belief.

No desperation involved. I'm right, I have no problem repeating it, and my defense is that the opposing point of view is flat out wrong.

Mom and dad beats dad and dad as sure as night follows day. And the people who think there is no difference between a man and a woman are in serious need of an education no book or science study can provide.

Here I'll debate pj in your place:

Enjoy.

[PanzerJaeger]

I am of the opnion that you have a lot to learn about real life.

Now you're not even pretending to respond to my questions.

"Mom and dad" is a bigoted platitude?

Yes. It is thrown around in the same circles that use the "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" rhetoric. The aim is the same - to deligitimize homosexual relationships.

Seriously - get off the computer, get a woman, and live a little. I wasn't kidding when I said you have a lot to learn about real life.

I would suggest that you get out of the backwoods and learn about modern life.

I know what you say they are. And I know that you like to haul them out and wave them from the grandstands yelling "Proof! Proof!". But I wonder if you have actually read what you wave around, and if you really understand it, and if you have the life experience to correlate that data with the real world.

I think you are ignoring the real world in favour of what someone with a title told you to think.

Thank you for your concern. I have read them thoroughly and I understand the strengths and constraints of such research, which is more than you can say.

Here I'll debate pj in your place:

I would respond with this. (Apologies for the format, I directly copy/pasted from a PDF.)

One criticism of this body of research has been that
the research lacks external validity because samples
studied to date may not be representative of the
larger population of lesbian and gay parents
(Belcastro et al., 1993). Recent research on lesbian
and gay adults has drawn on population-based samples
(e.g., Cochran, 2001), and research on the offspring
of lesbian and gay parents has begun to
employ the same approach (e.g., Golombok, Perry,
Burston,Murray,Mooney-Somers, Stevens, &
Golding, 2003;Wainright, Russell, & Patterson,
2004). Criticisms about nonsystematic sampling
have also been addressed by studying samples drawn
from known populations, so that response rates can
be calculated (e.g., Brewaeys, Ponjaert, van Hall, &
Golombok, 1997; Chan, Brooks, Raboy, & Patterson,
1998; Chan, Raboy, & Patterson, 1998). Thus, contemporary
research on children of lesbian and gay
parents involves a wider array of sampling techniques
than did earlier studies.

Research on children of lesbian and gay parents
has also been criticized for using poorly matched
or no control groups in designs that call for such
controls. Particularly notable in this category was
the tendency of early studies to compare development
among children of a group of divorced lesbian
mothers, many of whom were living with lesbian
partners, to that among children of a group of
divorced heterosexual mothers who were not currently
living with heterosexual partners. The relevance
of this criticism has been greatly reduced as
research has expanded to explore life in a wider
array of lesbian mother and gay father families
(many of which have never lived through the
divorce of a heterosexual couple), and as newer
studies begin to include a wider array of control
groups. Thus, contemporary research on children of
lesbian and gay parents involves a wider array of
research designs (and hence, control groups) than
did earlier studies.

Another criticism has been that, although there is
considerable diversity within lesbian and gay parenting
communities (Barrett & Tasker, 2001; Morris,
Balsam, & Rothblum, 2002), research has often
focused on narrowly defined samples. Early studies
did generally focus on well-educated, middle class
families, but more recent research has included participants
from a wider array of ethnic and socioeconomic
backgrounds (e.g.,Wainright et al., 2004).
Recent studies have been conducted not only in the
United States, but also in the United Kingdom, in
Belgium, and in the Netherlands (e.g., Bos, van
Balen, & van den Boom, 2003, 2004; Brewaeys,
Ponjaert, & Van Hall, 1997; Golombok et al., 1997,
2003; Tasker & Golombok, 1997; Vanfraussen,
Ponjaert-Kristoffersen, & Brewaeys, 2003). Thus,
contemporary research on children of lesbian and
gay parents involves a greater diversity of families
than did earlier studies.

...

Lesbians and Gay Men as Parents

Beliefs that lesbian and gay adults are not fit parents
likewise have no empirical foundation (Anderssen,
Amlie, & Ytteroy, 2002; Brewaeys & van Hall, 1997;
Parks, 1998; Patterson, 2000; Patterson & Chan, 1996;
Perrin, 2002; Stacey & Biblarz, 2001; Tasker, 1999;
Victor & Fish, 1995). Lesbian and heterosexual
women have not been found to differ markedly either
in their overall mental health or in their approaches
to child rearing (Bos et al., 2004; Kweskin & Cook,
1982; Lyons, 1983; Miller, Jacobsen, & Bigner, 1981;
Mucklow & Phelan, 1979; Pagelow, 1980; Parks, 1998;
Patterson, 2001; Rand, Graham, & Rawlings, 1982;
Siegenthaler & Bigner, 2000; Thompson,McCandless,
& Strickland, 1971). Similarly, lesbians' romantic and
sexual relationships with other women have not been
found to detract from their ability to care for their
children (Bos et al., 2004; Chan et al., 1998b; Pagelow,
1980). Lesbian couples who are parenting together
have most often been found to divide household and
family labor relatively evenly and to report satisfac-
tion with their couple relationships (Bos et al., 2004;
Brewaeys et al., 1997; Chan, et al., 1998a; Ciano-
Boyce & Shelley-Sireci, 2002; Hand, 1991; Johnson &
O'Connor, 2002; Koepke, Hare, & Moran, 1992;
Osterweil, 1991; Patterson, 1995a; Sullivan, 1996;
Tasker & Golombok, 1998; Vanfraussen, Ponjaert-
Kristoffersen, & Brewaeys, 2003). Research on gay
fathers likewise suggests that they are likely to divide
the work involved in child care relatively evenly and
that they are happy with their couple relationships
(Johnson & O'Connor, 2002; McPherson, 1993).

The results of some studies suggest that lesbian mothers'
and gay fathers' parenting skills may be superior
to those of matched heterosexual couples. For
instance, Flaks, Fischer,Masterpasqua, and Joseph
(1995) reported that lesbian couples' parenting awareness
skills were stronger than those of heterosexual
couples. This was attributed to greater parenting
awareness among lesbian nonbiological mothers than
among heterosexual fathers. In one study, Brewaeys
and her colleagues (1997) likewise reported more
favorable patterns of parent–child interaction among
lesbian as compared to heterosexual parents, but in
another, they found greater similarities (Vanfraussen,
Ponjaert-Kristoffersen, & Brewaeys, 2003). A recent
study of 256 lesbian and gay parent families found
that, in contrast to patterns characterizing the majority
of American parents, very few lesbian and gay parents
reported any use of physical punishment (such as
spanking) as a disciplinary technique; instead, they
were likely to report use of positive techniques such as
reasoning (Johnson & O'Connor, 2002). Certainly,
research has found no reasons to believe lesbian
mothers or gay fathers to be unfit parents (Armesto,
2002; Barret & Robinson, 1990; Bigner & Bozett, 1990;
Bigner & Jacobsen, 1989a, 1989b; Bos et al., 2003,
2004; Bozett, 1980, 1989; Patterson, 1997; Patterson &
Chan, 1996; Sbordone, 1993; Tasker & Golombok,
1997; Victor & Fish, 1995;Weston, 1991). On the contrary,
results of research suggest that lesbian and gay
parents are as likely as heterosexual parents to provide
supportive home environments for children.

And this, which was published in 2010 and is not based on older studies or methods. Children in this study were shown to actually score higher, on average, than their peers in social and academic competence, and lower in aggression and social problems.

The US National Longitudinal Lesbian
Family Study (NLLFS) was initiated in
1986 to provide prospective data on
a cohort of American lesbian families
from the time the children were
conceived until they reach adulthood.
21–27 At its inception, all NLLFS
mothers identified as lesbian. In this
article, the psychological adjustment
of the 17-year-old NLLFS offspring
who were conceived through DI and
reared in planned lesbian families is
compared through maternal reports
with those of an age-matched normative
sample of American teenagers.
Within the NLLFS sample, we analyze
the association of adolescent wellbeing
as reflected in Child Behavior
Checklist (CBCL) scores with (1)
sperm donor status (having a known,
as-yet-unknown, or permanently unknown
donor); (2) parental relationship
continuity (whether the offspring’s
mothers are together or
separated); and (3) experiences
of stigma.

CONCLUSIONS: Adolescents who have been reared in lesbian-mother
families since birth demonstrate healthy psychological adjustment.
These findings have implications for the clinical care of adolescents
and for pediatricians who are consulted on matters that pertain to
same-sex parenting. Pediatrics 2010;126:000

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Oddly enough all the research supporting beiruts side seemed to be from the same walter schumm guy. Although I didn't see any of the ones where he does tests on claims made in the scripture to see if they can be supported.

[Beirut]

Now you're not even pretending to respond to my questions.

Would you prefer I pretend?

Yes. It is thrown around in the same circles that use the "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" rhetoric. The aim is the same - to deligitimize homosexual relationships.

I have no problem with homosexual relationships. I've suggested my wife take one up several times. I even offered to supervise.

I would suggest that you get out of the backwoods and learn about modern life.

Actually, I grew up in the city with a gay older brother. I was hanging out at his parties when I was 14. (Great mixed drinks!) I saw friends of his (and mine) that I knew for twenty-years die of AIDS. Several times my brother brought his friends who were HIV positive to our family Christmas dinners because he thought it might be their last chance to celebrate Christmas in a family setting. Some of them even cooked the dinner. My brother always brought his boyfriend as well. Having gay guys around was always normal for me. I've never known any other life.

How many gay guys at your family gatherings, Mr. I Don't Live In The Backwoods?

Like I said, you may have internet studies and Dr. Feelgood's pixiedust to lighten your path, but I prefer real life.

Thank you for your concern. I have read them thoroughly and I understand the strengths and constraints of such research, which is more than you can say.

Keep your internet studies and your pixiedust. I'll stick to real life. Real life: family, friends, kids, the day to day trials and tribulations the world throws at you. When you get tired of living vicariously through someone else's statistics, give real life a try. You might enjoy it.